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The Best Immigration PolicyFollow

#52 Jul 09 2014 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The problem is that Obama advertised (loudly even) to the world that illegal immigrant minors would not be deported from the US. Not a surprise to anyone with a brain what would happen.
That's not what he said, he said "miners" not "minors."

I thought about not posting this because it's just silly and doesn't add anything to the conversation. But then I came across this:

gbaji wrote:
You can't possibly actually not be able to . . ..

Smiley: confused
How can he not possibly, but at the same time actually, yet not be able to? Wait, my leg got stuck under my armpit . . .

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#53 Jul 09 2014 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was going to make a joke before riding on the Indian theme that they should send these kids up rife with Amazonian Slothpox or something. Wait fifty years or so and -bam- free country, already wired for cable television.

Over lunch though, I heard Rush Limbaugh asking if it wouldn't be true to consider it a WMD if someone was to start sending sick children to our border to infect the American population.

Poe's Law wins this round Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Jul 9th 2014 1:36pm by Jophiel
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#54 Jul 09 2014 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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There was a persistent theory for a while that the Black Death started as a form of germ warfare. I don't know how much evidence there was, other than those filthy merchants who clearly wanted to kill off their own livelihoods traveling around spreading disease.

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#55 Jul 09 2014 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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You guys need more snow. That seems to keep out the illegal immigrants.
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#56 Jul 09 2014 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Then we'll just get illegal Russians and Laplanders and shit.
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#57 Jul 09 2014 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:

The policy is about rewarding illegals who arrived here as minors and have lived in the US otherwise legally since then. It's going to act as an incentive for the next group of illegal minors. How can it not?

The US is not a magnet. These kids aren't being 'drawn' here. They're fleeing violence and poverty.


That is a pretty constant state though. When some outcome changes, you look for other changes that may have caused it. Obama's statements about policy changes involving deportation of minors, made at loud volume during a re-election campaign, and designed to be as broad and vague as possible so as to win Latino votes, should be a pretty obvious first place to look for the cause of this influx of immigrations.

Are they *also* fleeing violence and poverty? Sure. But so were the kids who arrived here last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. What "changed" between those years and this year to result in a nearly 10x increase in the numbers? It's hard to rationally pin this just on changes in the countries of origin for these kids. Doubly so when there's a much more clear and direct cause for this change. Wanting it not to be true doesn't make it not true.
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#58 Jul 09 2014 at 8:25 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Hey, when WE traveled thousands of miles to escape persecution and seek opportunity, it was just a bunch of dumb-*** Indians here so it was commendable and something for the history books. When they travel thousands of miles to escape persecution and seek opportunity, they're terribly inconvenient for us. So couldn't they just stay home?


Semi relevant

Quote:
'Why are our people going out there?' said Mr Boggis of the Thieves' Guild.
'Because they are showing a brisk pioneering spirit and seeking wealth and... additional wealth in a new land,' said Lord Vetinari.
'What's in it for the Klatchians?' said Lord Downey.
'Oh, they've gone out there because they are a bunch of unprincipled opportunists always ready to grab something for nothing,' said Lord Vetinari. [...] The Patrician looked down again at his notes. 'Oh, I do beg your pardon,' he said. 'I seem to have read those last two sentences in the wrong order.
(Jingo)
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#59 Jul 09 2014 at 8:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Are they *also* fleeing violence and poverty? Sure. But so were the kids who arrived here last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. What "changed" between those years and this year to result in a nearly 10x increase in the numbers? It's hard to rationally pin this just on changes in the countries of origin for these kids. Doubly so when there's a much more clear and direct cause for this change. Wanting it not to be true doesn't make it not true.
Seriously, it's a crazy notion anyone can prove this either way just to begin with.

Before these kids had less reason to be documented, and because of that they would have been more likely to avoid border stations. Because we have no firm numbers on how many people sneak across our border (for obvious reasons), we have absolutely no idea if this is an increase. We have no idea if more people are coming, or if the same number of people are coming but more are letting us know about it. We can't interview people we don't catch who sneak across the border, so we have no idea of their motivations, and that's very likely a lot of people.

We are (and please excuse the analogy) simply catching more wolves in the trap after changing the bait. Whether that is due to the new bait, a change in population numbers, or both, or neither is at best an educated guess.
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#60 Jul 09 2014 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Wanting it not to be true doesn't make it not true.

Well, that was certainly convincing. Not as convincing as, say, if you had actually known what the DACA policy was a day ago when you started this (go on now and pretend you knew it capped at 2007) but still mighty convincing.
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#61 Jul 10 2014 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
[quote=Elinda][quote=gbaji]
you look for other changes that may have caused it.
How about a murder rate that has skyrocketed to 90.4 over the last decade.

Quit being stupid.
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#62 Jul 10 2014 at 7:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rick Perry is showing how prescient he is by pointing to a letter he sent to Obama in 2012 talking about growing numbers of minors at the border. His letter pre-dates DACA by several months and is presumably based on several months data prior to that. So, no, short of major advances in Latin American chrono-journeying, DACA is not the primary cause of this influx nor are any DACA-related comments by the president.

Now, of course, it'll be "Well, but they knew we were thinking about it..." Hey, Rubio wanted credit for that DREAM Act idea, let's all blame Marco Rubio for this! They all saw this Hispanic guy talking about it and knew he must be inviting them all to flood the border!
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#63 Jul 10 2014 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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According to the New York Times...
NYT wrote:
At the root of the crisis is a 2008 law intended to curb human trafficking abuses. It requires officials to provide extra legal protections for migrants coming from countries that do not share a border with the United States. The unintended consequence has been to allow children from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras to overwhelm the immigration system. Some Republicans have said that before they would vote in favor of Mr. Obama’s request, they would need to see the 2008 law amended or repealed to expedite the children’s return to their home countries.

I bet an amendment to that law would go great with some overall immigration refo--- Oh, wait. Boehner already said he isn't going to address immigration this year. I guess the GOP must need that time for more important and pressing things like the 75th vote to repeal Obamacare or something.

The law in question passed by unanimous consent in the Senate and "passed without objection" in the House which is pretty much the same thing, before being signed into law by Bush about a week or so later.

Edited, Jul 10th 2014 8:42am by Jophiel
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#64 Jul 10 2014 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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In just three easy steps you can get your kid free US stuff as well as get them out of your hair. Simply send your child away from you forever on a harrowing journey across an ocean, traversing a desert on foot and finally facing armed border guards.

I'd have done it with my kids if the opportunity had presented itself.
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#65 Jul 10 2014 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Clearly if they tacked on those oh-so-important Iran Sanctions it'd be done in no time.
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#66 Jul 11 2014 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Rick Perry is showing how prescient he is by pointing to a letter he sent to Obama in 2012 talking about growing numbers of minors at the border. His letter pre-dates DACA by several months and is presumably based on several months data prior to that. So, no, short of major advances in Latin American chrono-journeying, DACA is not the primary cause of this influx nor are any DACA-related comments by the president.


Um... Because the Obama administration was ignoring the law with regards to deportations for quite some time before formally declaring it in DACA. That's what Perry was talking about. And at the time, he was complaining about a 90% increase in unaccompanied minors in 2012 bringing the total for the first 6 months to 5,200. But instead of changing his policy, Obama formalized it with DACA, and today we have 50,000 unaccompanied minors in the first 6 months.

Seems like Perry was dead on accurate with his criticism then. Obama ignored him, doubled down on the policy, and what happened? The problem got worse.

Quote:
Now, of course, it'll be "Well, but they knew we were thinking about it..."


It wasn't just "thinking about it". They were doing it already. DACA was just Obama taking credit during an election cycle for a policy that had already been in place for a couple years so as to shore up support among Latino voters in the election that year. He was using it as a wedge issue by showing that he was "doing something", while the GOP was not. What's really really funny is that despite all these attempts by liberals to try to convince people that this influx has nothing to do with the non-deportation policy of the Obama administration, Obama himself has been trying to distance himself from the policy itself, by arguing that it wasn't him doing it, but the DHS. Which is funny since he used it in his campaign, so clearly he was on board.


Spin, spin, spin...
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#67 Jul 11 2014 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Seems like Perry was dead on accurate

I actually didn't read any of the context, but this caught my eye because the odds of it being true are so staggeringly infinitesimal, I wondered if it was meant as parody. I'll assume not.
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#68 Jul 11 2014 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Spin, spin, spin...

I know, right? And yet you keep repeating it.
"It was all DACA and they knew they'd get in!"
"Well, they knew that even though they don't qualify, they'd get in like someday!"
"Well, ok, so it wasn't really DACA but it was like they knew he was thinking about DACA and probably doing it anyway and so it WAS about DACA even though there was no DACA and-- LOOK, I was told this was all Obama's fault and so it just is, okay? It doesn't have to make sense!"

Smiley: laugh
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Belkira wrote:
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