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The Best Immigration PolicyFollow

#27 Jul 08 2014 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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All brown people look alike to Lolgaxe.
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#28 Jul 08 2014 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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There was a seizure of an 1,800-acre poppy plantation in Guatemala recently, and for a while there has been an estimated of 400+ tons of cocaine per year trafficked through the region by the various cartels.

Your drug news is outdated, crackahs.

edit: I really need to proof read some days.

Edited, Jul 8th 2014 12:48pm by lolgaxe
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#29 Jul 08 2014 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's the hip thing these days. You're out of touch with the whole war on drugs, it's unnecessary, ineffective, and just an excuse conservatives use to keep you from getting legal pot.
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#30 Jul 08 2014 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Through the region, sure. I don't think it's originating there but rather is just real estate between the US and Colombia, Ecuador, etc.
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#31 Jul 08 2014 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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It's starting to originate there. Cheaper transportation costs, I imagine
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#32 Jul 08 2014 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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I suggest we just keep taking in all their teens that show up at our door yard. Give them some cool tennis shoes a college education and an Obama phone. We can create and retain the next wave of young problem-solvers.

In a decade or so the drug lords will have no minions and the politicians no one to corrupt while we're busy enjoying self-powered cars, vacations to Mars and all the clean energy we can handle.
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#33 Jul 08 2014 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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The primary problem is government corruption

Yeah, what a bizarre coincidence, that they ended up with corrupt government infrastructures. It's almost as if some regional power worked tirelessly to undermine any efforts at self determination or empowerment instead replacing it with puppet regimes. Almost. Of course we all know it's because those hot head latinos are so impulsive! ¡Ay, caramba!
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#34 Jul 08 2014 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
The primary problem is government corruption
Yeah, what a bizarre coincidence, that they ended up with corrupt government infrastructures.

Simmer down, Justice Warrior. I never said it was "their fault" but, regardless of the origin (European influence then US influence) the current primary issue is corrupt governments.
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#35 Jul 08 2014 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
No. Debate how it's not an advertisement saying "send your children to the US and we wont deport them".

Oh. Well, probably because the policy only applies to children who have been continuously in the US since 2007 so anyone showing up now is about seven years too late. That was easy!


Except that it send the message that if you come here illegally, at some point in the future you'll be rewarded just like those who were here illegally between 2007 and 2012. That's the point of this. You've just rewarded the last set of illegal minors by granting them special status. This is going to act as an incentive for the next batch of illegal minors to come to the US in the expectation that they'll get the same thing. It doesn't matter that *this* act doesn't directly give them those benefits. It tells them that the next round will.

Um... Also, you have to realize that the language the president used while arguing for DACA (and a DREAM Act) certainly encouraged this idea

Obama wrote:
Effective immediately, the Department of Homeland Security is taking steps to lift the shadow of deportation from these young people. Over the next few months, eligible individuals who do not present a risk to national security or public safety will be able to request temporary relief from deportation proceedings and apply for work authorization.


Realize that while this was in the context of the DREAM Act (and an addendum to DACA IIRC), no where in this statement does he say what the requirements are *except* to be a minor in the US illegally. The point is that the president has on multiple occasions made very very broad statements about deportation of minors which, in the absence of actually reading the laws in question, would be assumed to mean that he's not deporting minors. This is why we're seeing such a massive increase in unaccompanied minors on our borders. It would be beyond coincidence to even suggest some other reason.


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Cause... wait for it... that's exactly what the **** policy is.

Right. If you know nothing more about the policy than little soundbites someone told you like "It's like free ice cream!" then this is probably what you think. Now that we know that neither Guatemalan parents nor conservative tools know how to use Google, I think we've identified a big part of the problem. Hint: It's not with the policy itself but rather with the ignorant who make assumptions about it.


The policy is about rewarding illegals who arrived here as minors and have lived in the US otherwise legally since then. It's going to act as an incentive for the next group of illegal minors. How can it not?
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#36 Jul 08 2014 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Hey, Brazil is here, too.
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#37 Jul 08 2014 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
No. Debate how it's not an advertisement saying "send your children to the US and we wont deport them".

Oh. Well, probably because the policy only applies to children who have been continuously in the US since 2007 so anyone showing up now is about seven years too late. That was easy!

Except that it send the message that if you come here illegally...

The policy pertains to people here prior to 2007. Now if you need to take that and start some extrapolations to justify your hissy-fit then God knows I can't stop you. But, no, the DACA policy is not to blame here. If you wanted to argue that uninformed misconceptions about the policy are to blame, that might be true. The answer then is to address those misconceptions, not to trash a good policy just because some people fail to understand it.

Going back to your ice cream analogy, what you're arguing here is that if I throw a birthday party for my kid and invite ten of his friends and then ten more kids from the neighborhood show up and say "Hey, free ice cream", the only logical course of action is to stop having birthday parties. Not to send the kids away, not to contact their parents and let them know, not to put up a sign or anything else just "Oh shit, extra kids. Well, no more birthday parties because that's the only answer I have".

Edited, Jul 8th 2014 6:03pm by Jophiel
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#38 Jul 08 2014 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
No. Debate how it's not an advertisement saying "send your children to the US and we wont deport them".

Oh. Well, probably because the policy only applies to children who have been continuously in the US since 2007 so anyone showing up now is about seven years too late. That was easy!

Except that it send the message that if you come here illegally...

The policy pertains to people here prior to 2007.


The "policy" is that we grant amnesty to anyone who came here as a minor and has lived here for X number of years without committing a felony or major misdemeanor. The specifics of this one instance of that policy reflect years between 2007 and 2012. But when you couple that with a number of Obama speeches calling for an extension of this program, and passage of a DREAM Act (which would also make this sort of thing ongoing), and it's not hard to figure out why unaccompanied minors are showing up in droves. They all want to get here before the next cut off happens.

You can't possibly actually not be able to see this.

Quote:
Going back to your ice cream analogy, what you're arguing here is that if I throw a birthday party for my kid and invite ten of his friends, and then 10 more kids show up uninvited, so I decide to give them ice cream, and then ten more kids from the neighborhood show up and say "Hey, free ice cream", the only logical course of action is to stop having birthday parties.


Made some slight alterations to your analogy.

Do you see how no one would be stupid enough to fail to realize that the second group of 10 uninvited kids showed up because you gave ice cream to the first 10 who were uninvited but received ice cream anyway? That's what's going on here. And no, I'm not saying you must stop having birthday parties, but that the correct action was to not give ice cream to the first 10 kids who showed up uninvited. Not because you're cruel or mean or anything, but because you're smart enough to realize that unless you have enough ice cream for every kid in town, you have to create a cut off somewhere, and to be arbitrary about it is far more cruel than just sticking to a fixed "if you weren't invited you don't get ice cream" rule.

What Obama is doing is saying that the rules say one thing, but he's going to bend them, just for the set of kids that are right in front of him. What this does is tell every other kid that if they put themselves in that position of being right in front of him, he'll make the same decision for them as well. What's cruel about this is that in order to put themselves in front of Obama to receive his benevolent rule bending, they have to risk their lives first. So by doing that, Obama is causing hundreds of thousands of kids to put their lives at risk. And we only have data on the number who have arrived and sought out asylum (which is about 50k so far this year and expected to hit 100k by years end). We have no way of knowing how many minors have died, or been captured, sold into slavery and prostitution, or any of a number of horrible fates while seeking Obama's rule bending.


That's why you don't freaking do that in the first place.


EDIT: Oh. And to make the ice cream analogy numbers more accurate, it's more like 1 kid showed up uninvited, and you gave him free ice cream, cause it's just one kid. Then 10 more kids showed up seeking free ice cream. And now you've got a problem. Before you would have just inconvenienced the one kid who showed up and was turned away without ice cream and ended the whole thing. Now there's 10 times more kids who will have wasted a trip if you turn them away. But... if you give them all ice cream, how many kids will show up next? The scary thing is that I can guarantee you that right now the Obama team is trying to figure out how to grant amnesty to the minors who've shown up. They don't want to appear to be mean by deporting them. But if they don't? We're going to see this sort of crisis happening more often and in greater numbers. And the cost in lives will be that much greater as well. He's not helping by trying to be nice about this.

Edited, Jul 8th 2014 6:35pm by gbaji
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#39 Jul 08 2014 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The "policy" is that we grant amnesty...

Oh, so we're talking about imaginary policies and stuff and not the real things put into effect. Well, I thought maybe you wanted to actually discuss it but I see I was wrong.

Quote:
Made some slight alterations to your analogy.

No, it was already accurate. I mean, it wasn't accurate for your imaginary policies where you just make shit up and throw a temper tantrum about it. But for the real world with real things? Yeah, it was already spot on.

Anyway, if you ever want to grow up and talk about things happening instead of things you wish were happening, let me know.
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#40 Jul 09 2014 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Made some slight alterations to your analogy.
You should start by making sure your own analogies aren't moronic before pretending to be capable of altering other people's.
gbaji wrote:
We have no way of knowing how many minors have died, or been captured, sold into slavery and prostitution, or any of a number of horrible fates while seeking Obama's rule bending.
I guess citing potentially captured, slave, prostitute, and/or dead children isn't considered an emotional argument when you do it.

I'd make fun of your edit, but it was just you repeating your original "slight alteration," to fluff your word count and didn't add anything.
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#41 Jul 09 2014 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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We have no way of knowing how many minors have been [terrible thing] because our broken immigration system keeps them in messed up countries or because they're mistreated in the US but can't seek help due to their immigration status.

Appeal to Emotion! I win!
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#42 Jul 09 2014 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

The policy is about rewarding illegals who arrived here as minors and have lived in the US otherwise legally since then. It's going to act as an incentive for the next group of illegal minors. How can it not?

The US is not a magnet. These kids aren't being 'drawn' here. They're fleeing violence and poverty.

Pull your head out of your self-preserving gernbogatorish for once.
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#43 Jul 09 2014 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, but every dollar we spend on these kids to keep them from starving or whatever is a dollar not being put into Gbaji's pocket by dint of his hard work and stuff 'cause the government is spending it. Honduran moocher children are bleeding Gbaji dry!

That's what this really comes down to, isn't it? Children escaping poverty is all well and good until it starts to cost someone money and then they just become a burden that should stay home?
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#44 Jul 09 2014 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, but every dollar we spend on these kids to keep them from starving or whatever is a dollar not being put into Gbaji's pocket by dint of his hard work and stuff 'cause the government is spending it.
Don't forget the countless gorillians of children that suffer from [random appeals to emotional] because of it!

Edited, Jul 9th 2014 10:40am by lolgaxe
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#45 Jul 09 2014 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And no, I'm not saying you must stop having birthday parties, but that the correct action was to not give ice cream to the first 10 kids who showed up uninvited. Not because you're cruel or mean or anything, but because you're smart enough to realize that unless you have enough ice cream for every kid in town, you have to create a cut off somewhere, and to be arbitrary about it is far more cruel than just sticking to a fixed "if you weren't invited you don't get ice cream" rule.
Why not stop when you run out of ice cream? I mean if you don't it'll just sit in the back of the freezer for 2 months until you throw out the half-eaten container anyway.

gbaji wrote:
We have no way of knowing how many minors have died, or been captured, sold into slavery and prostitution, or any of a number of horrible fates while seeking Obama's rule bending.
I think Elinda summed this up nicely:

Elinda wrote:
The US is not a magnet. These kids aren't being 'drawn' here. They're fleeing violence and poverty.
Which is really the problem. The whole death, slavery, etc thing is basically their existence back home. If we want to keep them from trying to get here we'd have to make the U.S. suck to a similar degree, so that it wouldn't be worth the journey. I'd prefer not to do that. The only difference you see now is they're showing up at a border station instead of wandering through the desert, it's bringing a hidden problem to light. Short of shooting anyone who shows up at the border there's not really much you can do that will deter people significantly.
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#46 Jul 09 2014 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I mean if you don't it'll just sit in the back of the freezer for 2 months until you throw out the half-eaten container anyway.

In what crazy world do you live in where ice cream goes uneaten and gets thrown out?

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#47 Jul 09 2014 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hey, when WE traveled thousands of miles to escape persecution and seek opportunity, it was just a bunch of dumb-*** Indians here so it was commendable and something for the history books. When they travel thousands of miles to escape persecution and seek opportunity, they're terribly inconvenient for us. So couldn't they just stay home?
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#48 Jul 09 2014 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
I mean if you don't it'll just sit in the back of the freezer for 2 months until you throw out the half-eaten container anyway.

In what crazy world do you live in where ice cream goes uneaten and gets thrown out?
The kind of world where the flavor you bought for the kid's party isn't one that you'd touch with a 10ft pole. Smiley: lol
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#49 Jul 09 2014 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
The kind of world where the flavor you bought for the kid's party isn't one that you'd touch with a 10ft pole. Smiley: lol

Who wants ice cream!? We have chocolate, strawberry, and beef flavored.

Edited, Jul 9th 2014 10:23am by Jophiel
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#50 Jul 09 2014 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mmmm, Hog'n'daaz.
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#51 Jul 09 2014 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Looks like the only humanitarian thing to do is going to require that we spend money. We can either help the children fleeing violence here, or in their own countries. Since most of our attempts at trying to make changes in other countries fail unless the majority rise up first to make change possible, the money would be better spent in welcoming the children here, giving them an education and hope that when they grow up they will go back and create better conditions for further children.

Of course the GOP seem to get all prissy, whenever the right thing means spending money on people that don't look like them.
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