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Babies in Cars.Follow

#1 Jun 25 2014 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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I'm having an argument.

Kids get left in cars and die horrible deaths.

In some instances this is quite unintentional. On the news last week they kept playing a clip of a frantic dad on a 911 call explaining he accidently left his kid in the car.

Should a parent be criminally tried for such an act?

Would the courts tend to be more lenient to father than mother in these instances?

It's tragic, but I don't believe a parent is acting with any criminal intent when they forget their kid in a car. The guilt they'll live with is a more severe punishment than any court could exact. I'd hope that mothers and fathers would be treated equally in such cases, but I could see where men, white men particularly would get more lenient treatment.

sorry for all the typos. boss visit.

Edited, Jun 25th 2014 4:41pm by Elinda
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#2 Jun 25 2014 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Are windows that difficult to break?

Either way. Charge 'em with gross negligence and move on.
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#3 Jun 25 2014 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think a lot of public perception centers around what the parent was doing while the child was in the car.

I'm not sure gender is the dividing issue around how the parent is perceived. I see it as more of a class issue. But to be fair, I see most issues as class issues. I have my own biases.

Technically speaking I suppose they have to be investigated for negligent homicide or some such, but it really comes down to the court as to what they want to pursue; again, what the parent was doing and how the parent is perceived by the court are going to be factors in that decision. And frankly, what the parent was doing would be a factor for me, as well.
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#4 Jun 25 2014 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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My coworker was critical of the decision not to file criminal charges against one forgetful dad. She claimed that if it had been the mom that forgot the kid in the car, she would be charged.

I'm not so sure.

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#5 Jun 25 2014 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Would the courts tend to be more lenient to father than mother in these instances?
That would be the exact opposite of most criminal sentencing. White people would probably still get more lenience, but I doubt it would favor fathers over mothers.
#6 Jun 25 2014 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Would the courts tend to be more lenient to father than mother in these instances?
That would be the exact opposite of most criminal sentencing. White people would probably still get more lenience, but I doubt it would favor fathers over mothers.

I dont' think so either. Her argument was from the standpoint that we don't hold fathers as accountable as care-givers to our children as we would mothers.







Edited, Jun 25th 2014 4:58pm by Elinda
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#7 Jun 25 2014 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeeeeah, but that's countered by the "protector" status for fathers in general. I don't think it's a big factor either way, but maybe your coworker has some insight I'm missing.
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#8 Jun 25 2014 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Would the courts tend to be more lenient to father than mother in these instances?
I don't know if the courts would be, but society in general sure would.

I'm still surprised by the double standard to some degree. If I'm out alone with the kids and there's a problem of some kind the reaction I seem to get is more sympathy than anything else, especially from women. Like 'that poor guy is left alone with a toddler and a baby, here let me give you a hand.' Then comes the interesting conversation, of course.

"So where's your wife? Is she working today?"
"Oh no, she's at home, just getting some stuff done around the house."
"Oh... well it's sure is great of you to take the kids out and give her a break like that."
"Oh, um, well it's not a big deal, we do this a lot."
"Really?"
"Um, yeah..."

*awkward silence*

Whereas the Mrs. would be getting scornful looks from people wondering why she can't control her children, why she's letting them disrupt and annoy everyone, and struggle to fathom why would someone bring their child out in public if they still might have an "accident" in the store? True story, yay for potty training mishaps...

But we're not talking about anything major of course, more like child having a bit of a meltdown because they're tired, or playing with something on a store shelf while you're distracted, or wandering around the corner out of sight. I really hate that last one. Smiley: mad We've never left the child in a car before, and I do struggle to understand how that could happen, though I suppose it isn't unheard of. But yes the whole double-standard, expectations people have for women but not men thing, could see it coming into play.

Anyway speaking of babies in cars, there was a small SUV with a "baby on board" sticker swerving in and out of traffic and cutting people off like crazy during the commute this morning. I can only assume it's a dad with a legitimate excuse for being late and doing his best to correct his mistake, or a mom who failed plan her day properly and is putting her kids at risk of injury in a traffic accident.

Women... Smiley: disappointed
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#9 Jun 25 2014 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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The general census of parents who have left their child in the back seat of their car, is that they were under so much stress that they forgot the child was there. Seems that when stressors build up, the lizard brain overrides the brain and affects the memory. Washington Post had an article on this several years ago.
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#10 Jun 25 2014 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:

Anyway speaking of babies in cars, there was a small SUV with a "baby on board" sticker swerving in and out of traffic and cutting people off like crazy during the commute this morning. I can only assume it's a dad with a legitimate excuse for being late and doing his best to correct his mistake, or a mom who failed plan her day properly and is putting her kids at risk of injury in a traffic accident.

Women... Smiley: disappointed

Everyone knows what lousy drivers women are. Smiley: oyvey
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#11 Jun 25 2014 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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It was probably PMS.
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#12 Jun 25 2014 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Predictable in hindsight I guess, this is kind of interesting...

Quote:
Two decades ago, this was relatively rare. But in the early 1990s, car-safety experts declared that passenger-side front airbags could kill children, and they recommended that child seats be moved to the back of the car;

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#13 Jun 25 2014 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
there was a small SUV with a "baby on board" sticker swerving in and out of traffic and cutting people off like crazy during the commute this morning. I can only assume it's a dad with a legitimate excuse for being late and doing his best to correct his mistake

Not nice to call the baby a "mistake" even if it did make him late for work Smiley: disappointed
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#14 Jun 25 2014 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well if she would just take the pill at exactly the same time every day and stop making stupid excuses this would have never been an issue in the first place. Smiley: mad
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#15 Jun 25 2014 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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The times I drive and there's a cockbite with a Baby On Board plaque and driving like an idiot I give them as hard a time as possible. I've also keyed cars taking up multiple spaces at parking lots, but that has less to do with the whole presumption that a child in the vehicle lessening the driver's responsibility.
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#16 Jun 25 2014 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
there was a small SUV with a "baby on board" sticker swerving in and out of traffic and cutting people off like crazy during the commute this morning. I can only assume it's a dad with a legitimate excuse for being late and doing his best to correct his mistake

Not nice to call the baby a "mistake" even if it did make him late for work Smiley: disappointed

Better than calling it a parasite. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Jun 25th 2014 10:35am by Poldaran
#17 Jun 25 2014 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Now, a sexually transmitted disease isn't so far off.
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#18 Jun 25 2014 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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In some instances this is quite unintentional. On the news last week they kept playing a clip of a frantic dad on a 911 call explaining he accidently left his kid in the car.

Should a parent be criminally tried for such an act?


Yes, of course. What an idiotic question. If nothing else for the moral hazard of "oh no what a terrible """mistake""" my colicky 1 year old drown in the bath and now I can sleep ever."

I dont' think so either. Her argument was from the standpoint that we don't hold fathers as accountable as care-givers to our children as we would mothers.


No, no, you have it wrong. Just as accountable, just assumed to be incompetent. Trust me, I spent hours a day with stay at home moms. If they haven't met me before, they immediately assume I'm seconds away from killing the children at all times. In fairness, though, when I see dads who work at the park with their kids it is ******* Amateur Hour. I actually had to ask one to leave because his shouting at his kids was scaring other children. He was initially reluctant, but I made a compelling argument.
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#19 Jun 25 2014 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Just as accountable, just assumed to be incompetent.... Trust me, I spent hours a day with stay at home moms. If they haven't met me before, they immediately assume I'm seconds away from killing the children at all times.
Ugh, ain't it the truth.

Smasharoo wrote:
In fairness, though, when I see dads who work at the park with their kids it is @#%^ing Amateur Hour.
My favorite is the phone addicts. What is it with dads that when left alone outdoors (park/zoo/etc) with the kids immediately grab the phone and completely zone out? Sometimes I swear it's like 3/4 of the ones I see.
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#20 Jun 25 2014 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
In some instances this is quite unintentional. On the news last week they kept playing a clip of a frantic dad on a 911 call explaining he accidently left his kid in the car.

Should a parent be criminally tried for such an act?


Yes, of course. What an idiotic question. If nothing else for the moral hazard of "oh no what a terrible """mistake""" my colicky 1 year old drown in the bath and now I can sleep ever."
The courts don't seem so one-minded. The forgetful parents are tried in most cases it seems (though not all). In the couple cases highlighted in this recent articles the defendants were found not guilty; one of manslaughter and another of involuntary manslaughter (that had been reduced from 2nd degree murder). One was a dad and one a mom.

An interesting twist in this case. The dead-baby was adopted. The couple now wants to adopt another child.





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#21 Jun 25 2014 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Just as accountable, just assumed to be incompetent.... Trust me, I spent hours a day with stay at home moms. If they haven't met me before, they immediately assume I'm seconds away from killing the children at all times.
Ugh, ain't it the truth.
Count to ten.
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#22 Jun 25 2014 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
An interesting twist in this case. The dead-baby was adopted. The couple now wants to adopt another child.

Did they keep the receipt?
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#23 Jun 25 2014 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Just as accountable, just assumed to be incompetent.... Trust me, I spent hours a day with stay at home moms. If they haven't met me before, they immediately assume I'm seconds away from killing the children at all times.
Ugh, ain't it the truth.
Count to ten.
That's too old school. These days you count backwards from 5 to calm down. Smiley: nod
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#24 Jun 25 2014 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
An interesting twist in this case. The dead-baby was adopted. The couple now wants to adopt another child.
Did they keep the receipt?
Did they opt for the extended warranty?
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#25 Jun 25 2014 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Just as accountable, just assumed to be incompetent.... Trust me, I spent hours a day with stay at home moms. If they haven't met me before, they immediately assume I'm seconds away from killing the children at all times.
Ugh, ain't it the truth.
Count to ten.
That's too old school. These days you count backwards from 5 to calm down. Smiley: nod
Is counting backwards that much harder for most people that you could cut the cooldown time in half?
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#26 Jun 25 2014 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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An interesting twist in this case. The dead-baby was adopted. The couple now wants to adopt another child.


They can only adopt 8 at a time now, to lower the risk of them all falling asleep in a car together. Co-joined, obviously, don't want one getting separated from the herd.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#27 Jun 25 2014 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Just as accountable, just assumed to be incompetent.... Trust me, I spent hours a day with stay at home moms. If they haven't met me before, they immediately assume I'm seconds away from killing the children at all times.
Ugh, ain't it the truth.
Count to ten.
That's too old school. These days you count backwards from 5 to calm down. Smiley: nod
Is counting backwards that much harder for most people that you could cut the cooldown time in half?
Everything moves at a faster pace these days. Smiley: disappointed

The "once per episode" part.

Edited, Jun 25th 2014 11:40am by someproteinguy
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#28 Jun 25 2014 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anyway, I'm still catching up on this thing. They're claiming it was intentional now and the dad was faking an accident?
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#29 Jun 25 2014 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Anyway, I'm still catching up on this thing. They're claiming it was intentional now and the dad was faking an accident?

Smoke another one, Tommy.
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#30 Jun 25 2014 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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All I know is what I read.

I'm a puppet like that. Smiley: rolleyes
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#31 Jun 25 2014 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyway, I'm still catching up on this thing. They're claiming it was intentional now and the dad was faking an accident?

Well, not to go all Gbaji and read wild fantasy into minor omission, there does seem to be a marked lack of information about the cause of death. May turn out there was some other cause of death and the kid was dead prior to the whole car thing. Or not, again, that's wild guessing on my part.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#32 Jun 25 2014 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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All good, wild guesses can be fun and amusing at times.
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#33 Jun 25 2014 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
All I know is what I read.

I'm a puppet like that. Smiley: rolleyes

Interesting. The paper makes quite a deal about it being murder but, as far as I can tell, it's all based on this:
Quote:
But the story of the hapless father making an innocent mistake quickly changed as police released more details.
"Within moments of the first responders getting to the scene and doing their job and questions began to be asked about the moments that led up to their arrival at the scene, some of those answers were not making sense to the first responders," Pierce said.
What were the details??!?!

This thread wasn't about any case in particular though. The one article I linked was about two different car-babies.
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#34 Jun 25 2014 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
That's a pretty articulate article that doesn't really say a single thing.
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#35 Jun 25 2014 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
What were the details??!?!
Details only get in the way of a good story line. But yeah, it's all a "we don't know what happened, but he's been charged with murder so let's speculate!" kind of thing. Why mess with something that works for you?

Elinda wrote:
This thread wasn't about any case in particular though. The one article I linked was about two different car-babies.
It's an epidemic!

Smiley: tinfoilhat

Edited, Jun 25th 2014 1:06pm by someproteinguy
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#36 Jun 25 2014 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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http://wreg.com/2014/06/25/source-dad-searched-how-long-it-takes-animal-to-die-in-hot-car-before-child-left-in-hot-car/
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#37 Jun 25 2014 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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#38 Jun 25 2014 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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Here's the Washington Post article that lays out why it's a brain error and not just carelessness. (It's also a devastating read): http://wapo.st/SOwhu8

Though I still think it could be useful to at least charge them with some level of negligence. Might at least act as a preventive measure - once you've become aware of the risk of this happening, there are steps you can take to prevent it. E.g, leaving a large teddy bear in the carseat, and moving it into the front seat when the baby is occupying it. Or putting your cell phone in the back, so that you'll have to go back there to retrieve and and see the baby (also added bonus of preventing you from using it while driving).


Edited, Jun 25th 2014 7:30pm by trickybeck
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#39 Jun 25 2014 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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It's also a devastating read

It's also complete ********* There is no cognitive error that causes people to leave children in cars. Certainly not a common one that can be explained with ****** metaphor by a human interest story. It's not losing your keys a lot. It's a catastrophic error several orders of magnitude beyond that and it happens AMAZINGLY INFREQUENTLY. Far, far, far, far, far too infrequently for the explanation in this article to have any merit. At all. It's borderline irresponsible, honestly.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#40 Jun 25 2014 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
It was probably PMS.

Screenshot
#41 Jun 26 2014 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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#42 Jun 26 2014 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Was she a "back then" storyline? I can never keep up with the whole fantasy timelines thing and the way some of them try to squeeze themselves into reality.
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#43 Jun 30 2014 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Lazy update: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/warrants-cobb-toddlers-mom-also-researched-kids-dy/ngWJW/
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#44 Jun 30 2014 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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I doubt they'll get a jury to convict.
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#45 Jun 30 2014 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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It's interesting from a legal standpoint; what kind of evidence do internet search records provide?

Is it strange that this guys internet search records were sought and retrieved so quickly after the actual incident?

When I think of how much stupid stuff I search. One of those searches could somehow implicate me in most any crime.
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#46 Jun 30 2014 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't worry, I imagine many of the things people search for on the internet are probably not things that would look particularly good without proper context.

But yeah, you'd have to think they're trying to poke around and see if there's other supporting evidence, or if he said something stupid to someone or left any loose ends. Short of that though, an internet search isn't really strong evidence. I imagine the story carries well though, as the whole "something you felt was private just became public in the worst way" storyline is a good draw for eyeballs.
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#47 Jul 03 2014 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Or maybe some things don't look good regardless of the context...

Quote:
Justin Ross Harris messaged six women, sending and receiving explicit texts -- some including nude images -- from work while his 22-month-old was dying in a hot car, a detective testified Thursday in the father's hearing on murder and child cruelty charges.

Harris' attorney repeatedly objected to Cobb County, Georgia, police Detective Phil Stoddard's testimony regarding Harris sexting the women -- one of whom was 17 -- but the judge allowed it because it was a probable cause hearing.

In addition to the charges he faces in connection with his son's death, Harris may be charged with felony sexual exploitation of a minor and misdemeanor illegal contact with a minor, Stoddard said.
Oops. Smiley: rolleyes
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#48 Jul 03 2014 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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I like how the age of consent in Georgia is 16, but the age for sexual exploitation is 18. You can @#%^ 'em, but God help you if she sends you a topless photo. And yes, I get the reason. Distribution. I'm not saying I disagree, just find it amusing.

Is there anything other than this guy being skivvy and Google that points to his guilt? So far I see criminal negligence and child endangerment/neglect as certainties. Oh, and the whole cell phone ******* from Georgia's Gray Area.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2014 4:34pm by lolgaxe
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#49 Jul 03 2014 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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In the end it doesn't matter what he was doing when his son was left in the car, right? Had he been working diligently on a project that could cure cancer, or ************ to a bunch of pictures of a naked 17 year old...
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#50 Jul 03 2014 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Given the hodgepodge and contradictory nature of all those kinds of laws in the 15-18 range across most states I'm surprised more high school students don't end up in jail. Smiley: rolleyes
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#51 Jul 03 2014 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
In the end it doesn't matter what he was doing when his son was left in the car, right?
Well not for most things, but in this case it means he's pretty much screwed even if they don't charge him with anything related to his kid's death.
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