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#27 May 28 2014 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Explain to me how the idea is even fucking SUPPOSED to work, just mathematically. "Instead of compensating them with stock options, we now compensate them with stock.


Um... You don't know the difference between stock options and RSUs? I'm not going to explain the whole thing, cause that would be ridiculous even for me.

It depends on the specifics of the option contract, but in general options allow the holder to wait until the ideal time/value to exercise them based on whatever earnings and tax interests the holder is pursuing. They provide greater flexibility for the holder to maximize their advantage from them, and because of the typically long terms involved, can absolutely result in compensation that is less tied to performance. RSUs are direct grants of X number of shares of stock at the time they vest. So compensation is immediate and based on the current stock value.

Typically far more options are granted than direct stock (like an order of magnitude or more difference). This is to offset the innate risk of stock options and the innately known value of an RSU. Ultimately (and I'm really trying to dumb this down for the audience here), it's about relative gains in the compensation compared to relative gains in the stock of the company. So let's say that you're granted 500 RSU that'll vest over the next 5 years (100 per year). Let's say the current value of the stock is $50/share. Looking purely at the first 100 shares, if the stock doesn't improve in value, you'll still get $5000 in stock (100 shares at $50/share). At that point, you can do anything you want with them. They're yours. If the share value improves to $60/share, you'll get $6000 in compensation. It's a direct relationship.

The equivalent offer in options might involve 5000 shares (10 times as many), also vesting 1000/year, with a 10 year exercise window. Here's where things get interesting though. The value of the option is *zero* unless the stock improves in value. You might say that this provides an incentive to increase the value, but that valuation is why you get more options than RSUs, thus really providing an larger reward for a smaller increase in relative stock value. So mediocre improvements result in artificially large rewards. Looking again just at the first year of vested options, you get 1000 options after one year. If the stock value stays the same, you have no value at all. But if, as in our example, it increased from $50 to $60, you "earn" the difference by exercising the share. That's $10 x 1000 = $10,000. That's a greater gain than the $6000 you gained with the RSUs.

When you add in the fact that the options can be exercised at any point in time, what it does is create a potential for large monetary gains based on what are really just normal market fluctuations. The CEO need do nothing special to improve the company and can count on at least some days in the future when the stock value will be higher than his purchase price, and gain a large reward. Obviously, if he does a great job and the company stock soars, he'll also make more under the options system. But the point is which system rewards mediocrity, and options have more potential for that.

Put another way, options artificially inflate the relative profit (to the recipient) gained from relatively small increases in stock value, while RSUs start at a given dollar value of compensation and adjust in direct proportion to the increase in stock value. RSUs allow the company to more accurately predict the relative value of the compensation itself, and avoid wild swings of massive profits or nothing at all. This again encourages steady growth for the company rather than "playing the market". Which, I'm hoping we all agree, is a good thing.


That was still probably a longer explanation than most people are going to read. There are reasons most companies are shifting from options to RSUs, and the potential for excessive profit taking out of proportion to actual long term company growth is one of the main ones.
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#28 May 28 2014 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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That was still probably a longer explanation than most people are going to read

Oh, was it? Allow me to sum up. "I don't know, here's a very basic description of how I think options grants work for CEOs fraught with multiple errors. In no way does it address the question asked, whatsoever."

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#29 May 28 2014 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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And yet, I quoted an article that cited that as the reason for shifting from options the direct stock grants. I also am the one who explained why this reason makes sense. Hell. It's not like there aren't plenty of sources supporting what I'm saying. One of the major reasons for the shift from options to stock grants (of various forms, but RSUs are the most popular) was to curb abuses by executives cashing in on short term stock fluctuations rather than focusing on long term steady growth.

You? Just sit there and say "No" over and over. Call me silly, but I don't find closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and saying "no no no!" a very compelling argument.

Edited, May 28th 2014 7:28pm by gbaji
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#30 May 29 2014 at 5:05 AM Rating: Decent
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One of the major reasons for the shift from options to stock grants (of various forms, but RSUs are the most popular) was to curb abuses by executives cashing in on short term stock fluctuations rather than focusing on long term steady growth.

Nope. Still doesn't do that, *in any way*. You still have made absolutely no argument why that would be the case. What you have done is cited articles referencing accounting guidelines making it beneficial to use RSUs because you can show the exact write down against capitalization So, granting 100 shares of stock at $10 is a clear $1000 write down, granting 1000 options requires a pricing mechanism that's highly variable. That's the incentive for boards to use RSUs for compensation. Awarding stock OBVIOUSLY does nothing to tie that compensation to performance more than options would. Options are *literally ******* valueless* if the stock does poorly. Stocks are still worth money. Not rocket science. Please flail about again and attempt to "explain" your complete misunderstanding of this.

Thanks.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#31 May 29 2014 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
That was still probably a longer explanation than most people are going to read.
They'd be right, since it really had little to do with the discussion and just showcased your ability to read Wikipedia and reword it to fluff your word count. Congratulations, you're as cunning as a fifth grader.

I was amused when you played the smartest guy in the room card, though. Keep up the good work being new and such, Crosley.
gbaji wrote:
I also am the one who explained why this reason makes sense.
Well, makes sense to your narrative.
gbaji wrote:
Call me silly, but I don't find closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and saying "no no no!" a very compelling argument.
Odd, since that's exactly what you're doing in the electric car discussion.
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#32 May 29 2014 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
What you have done is cited articles referencing accounting guidelines making it beneficial to use RSUs because you can show the exact write down against capitalization ...


Er. There are multiple reasons, but the fact that there exist other reasons (and yes, accounting absolutely is one of them), does not preclude the reason I listed. Here. Since reading is apparently not your strong suite, let me read for you and quote the sections of each of the articles that is relevant to my point (you'd think I wouldn't have to do this, but whatever):

Quote:
One of the advantages restricted stock has from a management perspective is it is better at motivating employee to think and act like owners. When a restricted stock award vests, the employee who received the restricted stock becomes an owner of the company. He or she has to take no further action to make it happen. The employee is now part owner and can vote at the annual meeting.

Actual ownership of part of the company is a powerful motivating tool in trying to get employees to own the company's objectives. This makes them more focused on meeting goals.

Stock options, on the other hand, do little to instill a sense of ownership. They are viewed by most as a high risk gamble that has a potentially great reward. An individual may very well invest a couple of years helping a company grow and prosper when compensated for that time by stock options. However, their loyalty is to raising the stock price so the can cash out and make a bundle. They have no loyalty to the company and its goals. Often, they will choose actions which raise stock price in the short term, thus increasing their potential gain, rather than taking a longer-term view that will help the company.



and...

Quote:
The original idea behind stock options was that they would motivate management to boost a company’s stock price. But Institutional Shareholder Services Inc., which advises big investors on corporate governance, says it doesn’t consider stock options to be a performance-based form of pay. A hot market could drive a company’s shares above an option’s strike price even if the company’s executives were underperforming its peers.



It's like I have to hold your hand or something. I have *never* said that this was the sole reason for this. But you just love your "all or nothing" arguments, don't you?
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#33 May 29 2014 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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It's like I have to hold your hand or something. I have *never* said that this was the sole reason for this. But you just love your "all or nothing" arguments, don't you?


Still no idea, huh? Fascinating. Strong work cutting and pasting things you still don't understand, though.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#34 May 30 2014 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
It's like I have to hold your hand or something.
A lot of people already looked down that road and realized it didn't make any sense, so of course you'd have to drag them back to try to force your bias on them.
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