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#77 May 26 2014 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Most employers in Canada bring in TFW because they're filling entry line level positions, minimum wage jobs and are jobs regular citizens are unwilling to do the work. The TFW are predominantly in the **** jobs no one else will do, including teenagers. Actually, especially teenagers. The paperwork required to bring in a TFW and the amount of **** you need to deal with is not worth not hiring a willing and capable local person. They're not as readily available as they claim to be though.
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#78 May 27 2014 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
What kind of jobs are we talking about? Local people will work in care and sewage maintenance, I can't think what'd be worse.

Caring for elderly people in a sewer, I guess. That'd be rough.
#79 May 27 2014 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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But convenient!
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#80 May 27 2014 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
With the option to work from home after a few years of service.

Well, I say option...
#81 May 27 2014 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Maple syrup, questionable quality musicians, and a version of Southern Hospitality.
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#82 May 27 2014 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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#83 May 27 2014 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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Also the Vinyl Cafe.
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#84 May 28 2014 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Smash wrote:
You don't pay a "fair wage" based on the production of a laborer, you pay "as close to nothing" as possible regardless of the benefit to you.


Which is why "trickle down economics" doesn't work in a capitalistic environment. It's amazing how people praise Capitalism while at the same time argue that giving tax breaks to the wealthy will somehow boost the economy.
#85 May 28 2014 at 9:55 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
Yeah. Like "ancient Asian historian" and "Middle Eastern Art". Want to know why those "vague" degrees don't result in jobs directly aligned with them? Because... wait for it.. there are like 10 time more people with those degrees than there are actual jobs that require them. That is exactly the definition of a "labor glut". Every time some idiot student decides to pursue a degree in underwater basket weaving, the problem isn't that underwater basket weaving is "vague", but that the demand for laborers with underwater basket weaving skill is low.


I'm not sure where you are going with this. The reason why the demand is low is because it's "vague". I would assume that if you are going to introduce the concept of vagueness, then you must differentiate low demand based on the number of laborers vs a low demand based on the necessity of the service you are providing.
#86 May 29 2014 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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#87 May 29 2014 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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#88 May 29 2014 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Hah. Funny as hell:

Smasharoo wrote:
1. You've never had anything to do with H1B professionally, in any way. However, you know a dude.


Have I personally filled out the paperwork for an H1B visa? No. Do I personally know people who are working on H1B visa and talk with and work with them every single day? Yes. Seriously, where do you think you're going with this? I literally work in an office building where about 60% of the workers are foreigners.

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2. I've recommended it be used to save money on certain roles because it's dramatically cheaper than paying domestic market rates.


Certain roles? Sure. I'm not going to defend the absurd position that 100% of all foreigners hired to do jobs in the US are earning enviable salaries. But you're arguing that none of them are. Which is equally absurd.

I know for a fact that there are several hundred employees just in the building I work in (ok, two attached buildings) that are earning salaries that people in the US would be happy to earn. The problem is that we have college graduates struggling to find jobs that pay $30-$40k/year, while we're paying to import workers to work at jobs earning $50-$80k/year. And you don't think that maybe this is a problem with our education not matching up with the job market?

I'm not sure what to say to that. This is such a well known and understood problem in the tech industry that it's startling to think that someone would not only not be aware of it, but would actively deny that it's happening. I suppose that explains why there appears to be so much brain death on this issue politically as well though. If someone like you, with no direct interest other than ideological stubbornness will engage in this level of denial, I can only imagine that politicians with a much larger direct stake in maintaining the fallacy of foreign versus domestic jobs markets (and education) will be that much worse. Seriously. It's a problem and everyone is looking in the exact wrong directions.

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3. Basic, near comatose economics should make it clear that it's close to impossible that in a nation of 300 million people, a company can't find 10 engineers or data scientists.


We can't find thousands of engineers to fill the jobs. Probably tens of thousands of jobs nationwide. That's a lot of college graduates who could have those jobs, if only they had the right skills.

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What they might have difficulty doing is finding 10 of them work for peanuts.


And yet, we have college graduates stuck working jobs that pay less than we're paying these h1b employees. So that kinda disproves your point. Are you seriously trying to argue that a kid right out of college with an engineering degree will turn down a $50k/year starting salary? You clearly have no freaking clue what this market looks like.

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Tell your lunch friends to just offer more money to fill those roles, and watch the qualified applicants roll in.


You really don't get it, do you?

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The *average* starting salary out of college with an undergrad degree in comp sci/engineering is close to $70k.


$60-70k/year sure. What's your point? Test and Design Engineers tend to start around $60k. When you calculate the total cost to employ an h1b employee it ends out being more than the cost to employ a domestic employee at the same job (at least these kinds of jobs). I know you want it to be about some kind of cruel exploitation, but the fact is that there really aren't enough qualified workers to fill these jobs. I just don't know how much more clearly I can say this.

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Asking those people to work for $50k is a @#%^ing joke.


If someone can't find a job in their field that pays more, then asking them to work for $50k is not a joke at all. As I said, there are a ton of college graduates who would absolutely jump at a $50k/year starting position. You are seriously out of touch if you think otherwise. All the averages and wage sites in the world doesn't change that fact. There is a disconnect between the skills kinds coming out of our education system have and the skills the job market needs.
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#89 May 29 2014 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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$60-70k/year sure. What's your point? Test and Design Engineers tend to start around $60k. When you calculate the total cost to employ an h1b employee it ends out being more than the cost to employ a domestic employee at the same job (at least these kinds of jobs)


Nope. Not close. Think it through for a ******* tenth of a second. You are *actually arguing* that in a labor market, a price finding mechanism for labor...because THAT'S WHAT A MARKET IS, that companies choose the MORE EXPENSIVE option based on.........right. Nothing. Lack of supply? Oh wait, how does a market solve lack of supply? THAT'S RIGHT, PRICE INCREASES. Unless, of course there's an external factor acting to depress price inflation.....like Rajiv from Infosys. Also, stop using the phrase "ends out." It's incorrect, and not part of the English language.

All the averages and wage sites in the world doesn't change that fact. There is a disconnect between the skills kinds coming out of our education system have and the skills the job market needs.

Yeah, SIMPLY UNTRUE. Not sure where you came by this idiotic fantasy, but it JUST IS NOT THE CASE.
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#90 May 30 2014 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Do I personally know people who are working on H1B visa and talk with and work with them every single day? Yes.
I'm glad you realized no one buys hypotheticals as evidence, but why'd you move on to third-party anecdotes?
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#91 May 30 2014 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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My personal favorite was when, a day after that ruling on the dude who beat up his girlfriend, Gbaji had opinions ready from four judges and attorneys he just happened to canvass that day Smiley: laugh
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#92 Jun 02 2014 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Most employers in Canada bring in TFW because they're filling entry line level positions, minimum wage jobs and are jobs regular citizens are unwilling to do the work. The TFW are predominantly in the sh*t jobs no one else will do, including teenagers. Actually, especially teenagers. The paperwork required to bring in a TFW and the amount of sh*t you need to deal with is not worth not hiring a willing and capable local person. They're not as readily available as they claim to be though.


That's not true. I know plenty of people, many of them WITH DEGREES who have applied for restaurant work and not been able to find it. These folks are motivated, will take any job and the companies still bring people in. At any rate, even if lots of people are not applying they could simply raise the wages and they would get a lot more willing and capable local folks.

Anywhere that's not true, the restaurants are simply not paying enough to compete with better jobs. Guess what, your job sucks? well guess you will need to pay better. It's a total myth that people refuse to do these jobs. Restaurant owners are VERY HAPPY to do a bit of paperwork if it means they have an indentured slave who won't dare ask for basic employment laws to be followed because they are worried you'll send them back overseas. Hell some of these scumbags were forcing the TFWs to live in accommodations they owned and deducting the rent right from their paychecks.

Quote:
In 2012, the unit conducted an investigation into sushi restaurants which heavily rely on workers from other countries.

"It was actually the project where we found the most non-compliance. We found 95 per cent non-compliance in that industry," Short told CBC’s iTeam.

Short’s team found the same sort of thing this past winter during a sweep of northern Manitoba restaurants, which also employ many foreign workers.

They found 80 per cent of those businesses were failing to comply with minimum standards related to overtime, minimum wage and holiday pay.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/complaint-based-systems-failing-abused-foreign-workers-expert-1.2651413


Seriously, the bolded is why restaurants hire TFWs, not because there are not Canadians willing to do the work.

Did you see the guy from the Canadian Restaurant association claimed that he could pay people $100 an hour and still not find enough people? ( http://www.pressprogress.ca/en/post/would-100hr-be-enough-entice-canadians-work-restaurant-boss-doesn%E2%80%99t-think-so and http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/28/restaurants-canada-100-hour-wage_n_5406308.html )

When people lie that badly you know they are full of it. The only places that truly "can't" find workers are places where the employment market is overheated and the cost of living has skyrocketed due to an abundance of 100K+ jobs. No, no Canadian is gonna move to Fort MacMurray, pay New York City rents and work in a restaurant for 10 bucks an hour - if they want people in those areas they need competitive wages, and the food-industry has been too miserly to keep up with cost of attracting employees to these expensive crapholes in the middle of nowhere.


Quote:
Foreign workers recruited from Belize are accusing McDonald’s Canada of treating them like "slaves," by effectively forcing them to share an expensive apartment – then deducting almost half their take-home pay as rent.

“When we arrived at the airport, they said, ‘We already have an apartment for you,’ so at that point we already know we don’t have a choice of where to live,” said Jaime Montero, who came to Edmonton with four others in September to work at McDonald’s.

"We had to live there. We were told this is what we are doing," said another worker who didn't want to be named because he still works for McDonald's.

The Belizeans said their dream of making good money in Canada to send to their families quickly shattered. Instead, they pocketed less than $800 per month – which they said was barely enough to live on.

“You work for us now, so we are your owners. It’s like that, you know,” said Montero. “We felt like slaves. They just brought us and threw us on the side.”

Records from three employees show they made $11 an hour working at various McDonald’s locations and the company took $280 from their pay for rent, bi-weekly. Their remaining take-home pay for the same pay periods was roughly $350.

“[The apartment lease] contracts are signed by McDonald’s. All of our bills – utility bills – were billed [to us] under the name of McDonald’s,” said Montero.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/mcdonalds-foreign-workers-call-it-slavery



Edited, Jun 2nd 2014 2:44pm by Olorinus
#93 Jun 03 2014 at 7:45 PM Rating: Default
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And as long as I'm going through some older arguments:

Smasharoo wrote:

$60-70k/year sure. What's your point? Test and Design Engineers tend to start around $60k. When you calculate the total cost to employ an h1b employee it ends out being more than the cost to employ a domestic employee at the same job (at least these kinds of jobs)


Nope. Not close. Think it through for a @#%^ing tenth of a second. You are *actually arguing* that in a labor market, a price finding mechanism for labor...because THAT'S WHAT A MARKET IS, that companies choose the MORE EXPENSIVE option based on.........right. Nothing. Lack of supply? Oh wait, how does a market solve lack of supply? THAT'S RIGHT, PRICE INCREASES.


Yes. Price increases. Note that "price" and "wage" are not synonymous here. The "price" the employer pays increases because he has to hire someone from India, go through the time consuming and expensive h1b visa process, pay to move the guy from India to the US, pay for him to have a place to stay until he can get his own place, sometimes have to pay to bring the person's family over as well, etc. That's the increase in price because of a decrease in supply.

Want to know where else the price goes up? Job fairs. It costs money to put a booth up at a half dozen universities in the area, right? If there was sufficient supply of labor for the jobs the employer needs, he'd never do that. What you're not getting is that the employer is paying a higher "price" for that labor, but that the price is tied up in things that don't result in direct wages for the worker, doubly so for US workers. Which is the problem that is being caused by the disconnect between education and the job market.


Quote:
Unless, of course there's an external factor acting to depress price inflation.....like Rajiv from Infosys.


It's not an infinite factor though. If the employer is wiling to pay Rajiv $50k/year, then he's willing to pay a US employee at least that much as well (likely something like $10k/year more). So unless you're really arguing that there's not a single US worker earning less than $50k/year, then the problem is a mismatch between worker skills and employer needs. Which was precisely what I said from the start.

Your argument only works if every single US employee makes more than every single h1b employee. That's not true though, is it?


Quote:
All the averages and wage sites in the world doesn't change that fact. There is a disconnect between the skills kinds coming out of our education system have and the skills the job market needs.

Yeah, SIMPLY UNTRUE. Not sure where you came by this idiotic fantasy, but it JUST IS NOT THE CASE.


Of course it's true. If it weren't then, at the risk of repeating myself, there would never be a single h1b employee earning more than a single US laborer, nor would there be a single unemployed college graduate if there was even a single h1b visa granted. We'd utilize every single one of our domestic laborers before hiring people from overseas, right? You're trying to play to this narrative that foreign labor is used because it's cheap, but that only works if they're never paid more than any US worker. That's clearly not the case.

The fact that we both have h1b employees earning more than US college graduates *and* we have less than 100% employment among our college graduates proves that our education system is not providing the skills our job market needs. There's no way around that fact. Now we can argue about how easy or hard it would be to better align our education to our job market, but you can't get past your denial that the issue exists at all.
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#94 Jun 03 2014 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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Of course it's true. If it weren't then, at the risk of repeating myself, there would never be a single h1b employee earning more than a single US laborer, nor would there be a single unemployed college graduate if there was even a single h1b visa granted. We'd utilize every single one of our domestic laborers before hiring people from overseas, right? You're trying to play to this narrative that foreign labor is used because it's cheap, but that only works if they're never paid more than any US worker.

Right, good logic. Coal is only cheaper than Solar for electricity if no one has ever paid more per watt for it. Wait, what? That's happened? HOLY ****! Solar is cheaper than coal for electricity everyone! Start dismantling the coal plants!

At any rate, we have completed our discussion of this. You have demonstrated yourself to be ignorant of the entire scope of it, and are embarrassing everyone who continues to read your posts about it at this point. I have completely lost interest. That you are resorting to crazy **** like "This only works if this is never the case" has lead us to this point. Thanks for your fabricated stories and "opinion" about this subject you know nothing about, please provide same for some other topic. All done here. All done. Shh. All done now.
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#95 Jun 04 2014 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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at the risk of repeating myself
Conservatives simply abhor repeating themselves.
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#96 Jun 18 2014 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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The *average* starting salary out of college with an undergrad degree in comp sci/engineering is close to $70k.



Starting pay for a Wal-Mart truck driver is $76k... just sayin'.
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#97 Jun 18 2014 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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CoalHeart wrote:
Quote:
The *average* starting salary out of college with an undergrad degree in comp sci/engineering is close to $70k.



Starting pay for a Wal-Mart truck driver is $76k... just sayin'.

Yeah, you need that kinda dough for all the meth it takes to stay awake for three dayzzzzzzzzzzz
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#98 Jun 18 2014 at 11:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aren't truck drivers one of the highest death rate forms of employment?

Not the highest, but pretty high. Highest number of deaths though.
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#99 Jun 19 2014 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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I like to think "fisher" is primarily drunk rednecks.
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#100 Jun 19 2014 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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I like to think "fisher" is primarily drunk rednecks.

Almost all the categories are "drunk rednecks". Have you see a roofer? Bonus question: have you seen a roofer who wasn't smoking and drunk? That's trick question, obviously.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#101 Jun 19 2014 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I like to think "fisher" is primarily drunk rednecks.
The Deadliest Catch.

The ground fishing industry is big in these parts, and dangerous (Lobstering is a walk in the park in comparison). We seem to lose at least one boat a season.
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