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Ukraine has issuesFollow

#102 Mar 03 2014 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
lolgaxe wrote:
Any pictures of him saying that stuff without little red dots trained on his chest?

He doesn't need red dots. He is pro Russia already! Thats why he was elected with majority consent to lead the new government of Crimea following the collapse of Government in Kiev.

Doesn't anyone else read the news?
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#103 Mar 03 2014 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Any pictures of him saying that stuff without little red dots trained on his chest?

He doesn't need red dots. He is pro Russia already! Thats why he was elected with majority consent to lead the new government of Crimea following the collapse of Government in Kiev.

Doesn't anyone else read the news?


He would be wouldn't he. I am not sure he can afford not to.
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#104 Mar 03 2014 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
angrymnk wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Any pictures of him saying that stuff without little red dots trained on his chest?

He doesn't need red dots. He is pro Russia already! Thats why he was elected with majority consent to lead the new government of Crimea following the collapse of Government in Kiev.

Doesn't anyone else read the news?


He would be wouldn't he. I am not sure he can afford not to.


Well obviously no one in the Ukraine can afford to be at odds with Russia, especially when its Winter 8 months of the year, its kinda the reason they are where they are. Ukraine needs Russia more than it needs the West. (you still haven't read about the EU deal that fell apart have you?)


Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 8:21pm by rdmcandie
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#105 Mar 03 2014 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Any pictures of him saying that stuff without little red dots trained on his chest?

He doesn't need red dots. He is pro Russia already! Thats why he was elected with majority consent to lead the new government of Crimea following the collapse of Government in Kiev.

Doesn't anyone else read the news?


He would be wouldn't he. I am not sure he can afford not to.


Well obviously no one in the Ukraine can afford to be at odds with Russia, especially when its Winter 8 months of the year, its kinda the reason they are where they are. Ukraine needs Russia more than it needs the West. (you still haven't read about the EU deal that fell apart have you?)

Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 8:21pm by rdmcandie


Sigh, it may surprise you, you condescending prick, but most Pollacks were following it fairly closely. It is part of the national sport to watch others and complain about badly we did in comparison.

You mistake cause and effect if you think that the ultimatum was what brought this on. It was merely a trigger.

It is not your fault. You are not an idiot. Lenin would call a useful idiot. Subtle difference.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 8:37pm by angrymnk
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#106 Mar 03 2014 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Any pictures of him saying that stuff without little red dots trained on his chest?


Why would there be? I think what most people are missing in all the confusion is that Aksyonov is not the president of Ukraine. He's a leader of a radical pro Russia group who has basically declared himself "Prime minister of Crimea", and was supposedly elected to the position, with only a small and coincidental number of Russian troops standing around nearby.

While there's plenty of questions we can raise about the protests which ousted the previous president, and the legitimacy of the new interim president, the placing of Aksyonov as PM of Crimea is not just a coup, it's a foreign military supported one. The Russians basically used their military forces based in Crimea to force the election of a pro Russian PM (btw, that position is appointed, not elected, so totally illegal), and are now using him to call for military assistance from Russia so as to make it appear as though they aren't really just invading another country.

He's a toady for the Russians, nothing more. Not only does he have no legal authority to call for assistance from Russia, he was almost certainly placed in that position specifically to do so.
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#107 Mar 03 2014 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Any pictures of him saying that stuff without little red dots trained on his chest?


Why would there be? I think what most people are missing in all the confusion is that Aksyonov is not the president of Ukraine. He's a leader of a radical pro Russia group who has basically declared himself "Prime minister of Crimea", and was supposedly elected to the position, with only a small and coincidental number of Russian troops standing around nearby.

While there's plenty of questions we can raise about the protests which ousted the previous president, and the legitimacy of the new interim president, the placing of Aksyonov as PM of Crimea is not just a coup, it's a foreign military supported one. The Russians basically used their military forces based in Crimea to force the election of a pro Russian PM (btw, that position is appointed, not elected, so totally illegal), and are now using him to call for military assistance from Russia so as to make it appear as though they aren't really just invading another country.

He's a toady for the Russians, nothing more. Not only does he have no legal authority to call for assistance from Russia, he was almost certainly placed in that position specifically to do so.


It is a weird feeling not having (completely) to disagree with you. I feel like balance of powers is shifting...
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#108 Mar 03 2014 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Well obviously no one in the Ukraine can afford to be at odds with Russia, especially when its Winter 8 months of the year, its kinda the reason they are where they are. Ukraine needs Russia more than it needs the West. (you still haven't read about the EU deal that fell apart have you?)


There's lots of funny stuff going on here, but honestly the whole EU deal being "bad" is a pretty weak aspect of it. The impression is that most of the citizens of Ukraine wanted to go with the EU, but the Russians applied significant political, economic, and threatened military pressure to get the government to go the other way. This angered the people (and I'm totally not discounting the involvement of our own CIA in helping this happen btw), which lead to riots and calls for the president to resign. When those uprisings didn't just fade away, but continued to get stronger, it became obvious that the president couldn't hold on to his position, so he fled (to Russia, in case we're missing where the obvious support for his "side" is coming from).

The move into Crimea is Russia's shift to direct military action. The political and economic approach didn't work, so now they're resorting to direct military force. And for those who don't seem to understand this, this one really is all about oil. Yes, Russia has a significant control over the supply of oil into Europe, but a large portion of that stems from its ability to continue to control Crimea (well, Eastern Ukraine ideally). The reason the EU wanted Ukraine to sign with them was to reduce Russia's power and control in that regard. Similarly, that's why Russia wants to keep it.

Difference is that Russia is willing to actually use military force to get its way. I doubt that the EU, or NATO, or the US will be willing to do much against that. And yeah, we can hit them with some sanctions, and perhaps the US could weather it, but Europe would have some problems.
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#109 Mar 03 2014 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Well obviously no one in the Ukraine can afford to be at odds with Russia, especially when its Winter 8 months of the year, its kinda the reason they are where they are. Ukraine needs Russia more than it needs the West. (you still haven't read about the EU deal that fell apart have you?)


There's lots of funny stuff going on here, but honestly the whole EU deal being "bad" is a pretty weak aspect of it. The impression is that most of the citizens of Ukraine wanted to go with the EU, but the Russians applied significant political, economic, and threatened military pressure to get the government to go the other way. This angered the people (and I'm totally not discounting the involvement of our own CIA in helping this happen btw), which lead to riots and calls for the president to resign. When those uprisings didn't just fade away, but continued to get stronger, it became obvious that the president couldn't hold on to his position, so he fled (to Russia, in case we're missing where the obvious support for his "side" is coming from).


The EU deal wasn't bad until Brussels said that if Ukraine wanted a deal they couldn't take the Russian Energy deal. In fact it was a solid deal for the EU, Ukraine and Russia. So it really doesn't make sense why it was changed last minute. The impression is gravely mistaken though, most Ukrainian people want to go with Ukraine, whether they are on the East or West side. The support for joining the EU proper is actually pretty low, not as low as joining NATO though, just as the support for joining Russia is very low. The breaking point came down entirely to the EU essentially torpedoing a deal that had been in the works for over a year, for no real reason. (at least none that I have been able to track down.)

Quote:
The move into Crimea is Russia's shift to direct military action. The political and economic approach didn't work, so now they're resorting to direct military force. And for those who don't seem to understand this, this one really is all about oil. Yes, Russia has a significant control over the supply of oil into Europe, but a large portion of that stems from its ability to continue to control Crimea (well, Eastern Ukraine ideally). The reason the EU wanted Ukraine to sign with them was to reduce Russia's power and control in that regard. Similarly, that's why Russia wants to keep it. Difference is that Russia is willing to actually use military force to get its way. I doubt that the EU, or NATO, or the US will be willing to do much against that. And yeah, we can hit them with some sanctions, and perhaps the US could weather it, but Europe would have some problems.


Of course its a military action, but it was an action called for by Crimea. The PM of Crimea was elected just the same as Yats up in Kiev. Regardless of whose "side" they are on, Russia didn't waltz into Ukraine, they were asked to come. This was done because Kievs illegitimate government now controlled the military, and the illegitimate government in Crimea didn't have the capacity to defend itself if Kiev came knocking. So really the whole military thing is a moot point except in Western Media and CNN TV ratings. The EU deal had nothing to do with instating Ukraine into the EU. It was a trade deal and and agreement in principle of future membership discussion (kind of like where Turkey is sitting.) and as such Russia had very little to fear of losing Ukraine to the EU...and really doesn't because contrary to popular American Media opinion, EU and Russia get along pretty decently, especially Germany and Russia.

Pretty much the entirety of the "heightened" situation is based on the US media running roughshod into it without really fact checking anything. I blame the 10 months of AntiGay and Syria is in bed with Moscow coverage ignoring the whole 2013 year between Ukraine, EU and Russia. To be honest up until middle of last year things were looking really good for Ukraine, they had a solid EU trade deal on the table, They had advanced talks with Russia on future Energy cooperation and debt consolidation. Then it all went to rat **** when Brussels said pick one or the other.

**** even a few weeks ago Russia, Ukraine, and the EU were back at the table hammering out a deal to fix the current situation and they had reached one, but that is over with now since the US got involved with Kiev and the government. Now its an old Cold War style who blinks first stand off at high noon.


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#110 Mar 03 2014 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Of course its a military action, but it was an action called for by Crimea.


No. It's being called for by one guy, who's a leader of one party which only managed to garner 4% of the seats in the Crimean Parliament just 4 years ago. So unless they suddenly had a massive increase in popularity, any claim that what he's calling for represents what the people of Crimea (let along Ukraine as a whole) is pretty absurd.

Quote:
The PM of Crimea was elected just the same as Yats up in Kiev.


With the key difference is that Yatsenyuk was elected PM by the Ukrainian Parliament, which is actually empowered to do just that. We can talk all day about the political factions involved, but at the end of the day he was legally elected as PM.

The Crimean Parliament was literally held at gunpoint by Russian soldiers when it magically "voted" to put a rabid pro Russian guy from a small minority party in charge. I'm not dismissing the potential for shenanigans going on in Kiev, but this went well beyond "rioting Ukrainians forcing an upset or their government". This is a foreign power, sending troops into a city, occupying the Parliament building, and then having that Parliament remove the existing PM and replacing him with one that supports the foreign power.

The idea that we should then take that PM's "calls for military assistance" from that same foreign power as some kind of legitimization of their troops being there is beyond absurd.


Quote:
Regardless of whose "side" they are on, Russia didn't waltz into Ukraine, they were asked to come.


Um... Except for the fact that they did, indeed, do exactly that.

Quote:
This was done because Kievs illegitimate government now controlled the military, and the illegitimate government in Crimea didn't have the capacity to defend itself if Kiev came knocking.


Sigh. Look. Revolutions aren't pretty. I get that. But Kiev is the legitimate capital of Ukraine, and Crimea is a part of Ukraine. Period. Like it or not, if the government in Kiev changes, that new government is now in charge of Crimea as well. There's no "defending themselves" at issue here. What did they think was going to happen? Ukrainian troops were going to march down and... what? Kiev has just as much power over Crimea after the leadership change as it did before. That by itself isn't sufficient justification.

Having said all that, Crimea certainly can attempt to secede from Ukraine and join Russia or something. But let's not pretend that this is really about some fear of the Ukrainian government. It's 100% about Russia wanting to retain control of that region and realizing they could take advantage of the political turmoil in Ukraine to just take a slice for themselves. Again though, let's not pretend that this is something that the people of Crimea necessarily want.
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#111 Mar 03 2014 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
Unless the people of Crimea don't want to be part of the Ukraine anymore. So really whomever is in Kiev is irrelevant. It would be just like the Republic of Texas going back to being its own thing, or any of the states in the US. They can leave whenever they want. If people in Crimea didn't like it, they wouldn't be out in the streets waving the ole tribar and flying it from their windows, and off their businesses, and on their state buildings.

http://pressall.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/thousands-rally-against-illegitimate-govt-raise-russian-flags-in-eastern-ukraine/

Quote:
In the Crimean capital of Simferopol, around 6,000 people marched, chanting “Russia!” and “No to Fascism!” and carrying a huge Russian flag.

Thousands were also demonstrating with Russian and Soviet flags in Odessa, the third-largest city in the country. According to police, around 5,000 people took part in the gathering, while organizers insist there were up to 20,000.


Spin it however you want though. People of Crimea elected their officials, they elected the new PM, they are very happy with the choice. Or at least as happy with it as the couple thousand who spoke on behalf of all Ukrainians when they torched Kiev last month.


Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 10:25pm by rdmcandie
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#112 Mar 03 2014 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Unless the people of Crimea don't want to be part of the Ukraine anymore.


Key word being "the people".

Quote:
So really whomever is in Kiev is irrelevant. It would be just like the Republic of Texas going back to being its own thing, or any of the states in the US.


Sure. And if they declared their intention to do so only while their leaders are being held by foreign soldiers, one might just suspect that it's not an honest desire for separation.

Quote:
They can leave whenever they want. If people in Crimea didn't like it, they wouldn't be out in the streets waving the ole tribar and flying it from their windows, and off their businesses, and on their state buildings.


The people of Crimea who aren't pro Russian are likely hiding in their homes because there are armed soldiers on the streets who probably wont appreciate their position. Get it? It's really easy to talk about how free speech is until there are armed people walking the streets who oppose what you want to say.

Quote:
In the Crimean capital of Simferopol, around 6,000 people marched, chanting “Russia!” and “No to Fascism!” and carrying a huge Russian flag.


You can get 6,000 people to assemble for almost anything. That's meaningless. Crimea has a population of approximately 2 million people. 6 thousand isn't significant.

Quote:
Thousands were also demonstrating with Russian and Soviet flags in Odessa, the third-largest city in the country. According to police, around 5,000 people took part in the gathering, while organizers insist there were up to 20,000.


Yeah. Same thing. There are very good reasons why we don't decide who should run a country based on the number of protesters at events. It's called voting.

Quote:
Spin it however you want though. People of Crimea elected their officials, they elected the new PM, they are very happy with the choice. Or at least as happy with it as the couple thousand who spoke on behalf of all Ukrainians when they torched Kiev last month.


And if there had been foreign troops surrounding the Parliament building while they voted to remove the current president and PM (and a few others) and replace them, you'd have a point. There's a huge difference between the citizens of a nation deciding to do something themselves, and soldiers from another nation walking in and forcing them to do it at gunpoint. The fact that a smallish percentage of citizens think it's a good idea doesn't make it ok at all. You can't possibly know what "the people" of Crimea really want, or what they're happy with. Again, there's a reason why we have rule of law to determine these things.


I'll also point out that the Council of Crimea (their Parliament) doesn't elect the Prime Minister of Crimea by itself. The PM must be approved by the president of Ukraine. This never happened. Not only that, but the current acting president specifically declared Aksyonov's placement as PM illegal and in violation of the country's constitution (which it is). So it's not remotely the same thing. Even if we assumed this was the will of the people (which seems ridiculously unlikely), it would still be illegal.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 7:42pm by gbaji
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#113 Mar 03 2014 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
If you need to quote 6 times for 1 liners you are trying to hard. Want a discussion then lets have one but I ain't playing @#%^ing quote tag.

Ill start:
EU Torpedoed a deal:
People protesting Ukraine Government in Kiev, its good because they like the EU!
US pushed in some pro west dudes into government with only 380 something votes in a country of ~25M and It counts!
People protesting Ukraine Government in Sevastopol is bad because they like the RUS! Elect own leader doesn't count!
Russia asked to come defend the Crimea Region, by Crimeans.
US loses its sh*t.
EU not saying much.
Putin has a giant erection.

Your turn.



Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 10:57pm by rdmcandie

e: please stick to the format above.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 10:57pm by rdmcandie
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#114 Mar 03 2014 at 10:47 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If you need to quote 6 times for 1 liners you are trying to hard. Want a discussion then lets have one but I ain't playing @#%^ing quote tag.

Ill start:
EU Torpedoed a deal:
People protesting Ukraine Government in Kiev, its good because they like the EU!
US pushed in some pro west dudes into government with only 380 something votes in a country of ~25M and It counts!
People protesting Ukraine Government in Sevastopol is bad because they like the RUS! Elect own leader doesn't count!
Russia asked to come defend the Crimea Region, by Crimeans.
US loses its sh*t.
EU not saying much.
Putin has a giant erection.

Your turn.


Um... My issue is that you're trying to equate the overthrow of the Ukrainian government in Kiev, with a similar replacement of the PM in Crimea. And you keep saying stuff like "the Crimean people did this, and demanded that". But the two are completely different.

In Kiev "the people" actually did rise up, riot for weeks, and demand that their leaders be replaced. We can choose to take sides on this, but that was "the people" acting. Other groups of "the people" were absolutely free to join or oppose those protests as they wished. In fact, the only soldiers running around threatening people (and shooting them) were opposed to "the people" who wanted Ukraine to side with the EU instead of Russia.

Got it? That's the people at work. Like it or not, agree with it or not, that was a "popular revolt".


What happened in Crimea was Russian soldiers surrounded the Parliament building and forced them to remove the existing PM and replace him with one they wanted. That was not "the people" doing anything. The people of Crimea did not march and protest outside of the Parliament building demanding they change their leadership. Russian soldiers did.

That's the difference you don't seem to grasp, despite me pointing it out to you repeatedly. When "the people" rise up despite the military and police opposing them, and succeed in toppling the government, it's a good bet that they really do represent a significant portion of the population. They only succeed because if those in power try to use force to stop them, they'll only anger the much larger portion of "the people" who agree with the protesters but aren't yet willing to take such action. In fact, that's precisely what did happen in Kiev. As the government tried to use more forceful means to break up the protests, they only lost ground with the public.

When military forces surround government buildings and demand they change the leadership, it's an entirely different thing. It's called a military coup. And it's not uncommon at all for those military forces to be able to round up a number of supporters to "rally in their support", so as to give them an air of legitimacy. But only really naive people actually believe that they have popular support.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2014 8:50pm by gbaji
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#115 Mar 03 2014 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
It would be just like the Republic of Texas going back to being its own thing, or any of the states in the US. They can leave whenever they want.

Wait, what?

I'm pretty sure we fought a war over this.
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#116 Mar 04 2014 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If you need to quote 6 times for 1 liners you are trying to hard. Want a discussion then lets have one but I ain't playing @#%^ing quote tag.

Ill start:
EU Torpedoed a deal:
People protesting Ukraine Government in Kiev, its good because they like the EU!
US pushed in some pro west dudes into government with only 380 something votes in a country of ~25M and It counts!
People protesting Ukraine Government in Sevastopol is bad because they like the RUS! Elect own leader doesn't count!
Russia asked to come defend the Crimea Region, by Crimeans.
US loses its sh*t.
EU not saying much.
Putin has a giant erection.

Your turn.please stick to the format above.


Well, that's probably the most simplistic and bizarrely erroneous view of the situation I've seen today, aside from the guy I talked to who said "I Don't really follow the news, there are enough things happening in my own inner universe to occupy me for decades."
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#117 Mar 04 2014 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I'm pretty sure we fought a war over this.
We really need to reevaluate the results of that one.
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#118 Mar 04 2014 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

In defiant words, he said what had happened in Ukraine was an "anti-constitutional coup and armed seizure of power," and insisted that ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych is the legitimate leader of the nation.

He also insisted that if Russian-speaking citizens in the east of Ukraine ask for Russia's help, Russia has the right "to take all measures to protect the rights of those people.

Funny that he insists Russian 'speaking' Ukranian's will receive his protection. I suppose not funny, predictable actually, but such a flawed identifier. I bet some of the Russian speaker's are gay.
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#119 Mar 04 2014 at 9:53 AM Rating: Default
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Putin's got some ballz. I'll give him that.
Quote:

In defiant words, he said what had happened in Ukraine was an "anti-constitutional coup and armed seizure of power," and insisted that ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych is the legitimate leader of the nation.

He also insisted that if Russian-speaking citizens in the east of Ukraine ask for Russia's help, Russia has the right "to take all measures to protect the rights of those people.

Funny that he insists Russian 'speaking' Ukranian's will receive his protection. I suppose not funny, predictable actually, but such a flawed identifier. I bet some of the Russian speaker's are gay.


I am sure if the ones in the West wanted Russian protection he would give it to them too. Putin will protect all behind his curtain.

Really though, I find the event to be excellent at display the hypocrisy of the west. To think 2 weeks ago EU, Ukraine, and Russia had a deal reached that would have defused the situation. Then US of A had to push it off the cliff. Typical though really.

Go Putin!

Also lol at the US offering 1B aid package. 2 Weeks ago Ukraine still had 15B from Russia on the table, and a deal that would save them upwards of 20B in energy costs....And John McCain saying "Russia doesn't want a democracy on his doorstep" when Russia is surrounded by democracies **** some are EU and Some are even NATO. Heck even Russia is a Democracy...well at least its seated government, Putin and Medvedev have a cool thing going on...but Russians haven't stormed the Kremlin so they must not care to much.

Edited, Mar 4th 2014 10:56am by rdmcandie
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#120 Mar 04 2014 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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107% of Russians agree that Putin is a great leader.

Also, Rdm, have you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?
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#121 Mar 04 2014 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Heck even Russia is a Democracy...well at least its seated government, Putin and Medvedev have a cool thing going on...but Russians haven't stormed the Kremlin so they must not care to much.
Probably because opposing Putin means you're likely to be sent to prison or a camp of some sort. Russia is as much a democracy as China is.
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#122 Mar 04 2014 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

Quote:
In the Crimean capital of Simferopol, around 6,000 people marched, chanting “Russia!” and “No to Fascism!” and carrying a huge Russian flag.


You can get 6,000 people to assemble for almost anything. That's meaningless. Crimea has a population of approximately 2 million people. 6 thousand isn't significant.
Call it crazy but from what bing tells me that's a pretty equivalent number. 6,000 protestors / 2 million Crimeans is 0.3% of the population. Most of the numbers I see for the Kiev protest put numbers in the tens of thousands, with one source saying hundreds of thousands, another says 100,000, etc. The equivalent 0.3% of Ukraine's 45.7 million people is 137,100 people. The protests were on the same relative scale.

What your seeing is simply what happens when a Democracy has a large minority that has been out-voted, but is adamantly opposed to whatever the majority has chosen to do. Perhaps they're hindered by a new law, or in some other way harmed or feel attacked by the decision. I mean, there's a reason we have a those tea party people here. They're a strongly opinionated minority, they "shutdown" our government. There's people who want to pass "religious freedom" laws and refuse service to openly **** people. It's all in the same vein. I mean we fought our own civil war not all that long ago.

Speaking of which...

Jophiel wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
It would be just like the Republic of Texas going back to being its own thing, or any of the states in the US. They can leave whenever they want.

Wait, what?

I'm pretty sure we fought a war over this.
And we've been paying the price for it ever since. Smiley: disappointed
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#123 Mar 04 2014 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Heck even Russia is a Democracy...well at least its seated government, Putin and Medvedev have a cool thing going on...but Russians haven't stormed the Kremlin so they must not care to much.
Probably because opposing Putin means you're likely to be sent to prison or a camp of some sort. Russia is as much a democracy as China is.
I'm pretty sure you're still allowed to dislike him, you just can't do anything about it.

Is that so wrong? Smiley: rolleyes
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#124 Mar 04 2014 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
But Russians haven't stormed the Kremlin so they must not care to much.
I'd imagine it has more to do with levels of firepower than contentment.
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#125 Mar 04 2014 at 10:52 AM Rating: Default
Timelordwho wrote:
107% of Russians agree that Putin is a great leader.

Also, Rdm, have you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?


Nope I do not affiliate with any political parties. I make my choice based on the climate of my country (or province) and whomever seems to have the best plan moving forward from that point. If you surround yourself with all like thinkers it stunts personal growth, similarly if you surround your country with all like thinkers it stunts national growth, and of course this applies on the international level as well. There are aspects of communism that are really good and aspects that are really poor, there are aspects of capitalism that are really good and aspects that are really poor. In the current world climate there is just a lot more Capitalism to hate on than Communism.


Edited, Mar 4th 2014 11:53am by rdmcandie

Also communism in and of itself doesn't need to be a dictatorship, just as capitalism doesn't need be a democracy. Obviously it is easier to corrupt a government in a Communism, and it is easier for capitalism to thrive in a democracy. But these are economic ideologies, not inherently Government archetypes. You can just as easily be a Communist Democracy, as you can be a Capitalist Dictatorship. Or you could be some type of Hybrid Socialist Democracy (Canada) or Socialist Dictatorship (China).

Edited, Mar 4th 2014 11:59am by rdmcandie
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#126 Mar 04 2014 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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bbc live feed wrote:
Russian troops have been breaking into the premises of an air defence unit outside of outside Yevpatoria in western Crimea, Interfax reports. The unit's spokesperson was quoted by the agency as saying they had tried to block the Russian troops but about 150 of them had "crushed the defence and broken into the territory of our unit". Via BBC Monitoring.
Trying too hard? Smiley: rolleyes

Eventually someone will shoot one of them and down the rabbit hole we go.
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#127 Mar 04 2014 at 5:20 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Heck even Russia is a Democracy...



It is quotes like that make it difficult for me to take you seriously. Russia and its current form of government can be classified in a lot of ways, but no sane person would call it a democracy.

I prefer the term "zamordyzm"...
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#128 Mar 04 2014 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
Call it crazy but from what bing tells me that's a pretty equivalent number. 6,000 protestors / 2 million Crimeans is 0.3% of the population. Most of the numbers I see for the Kiev protest put numbers in the tens of thousands, with one source saying hundreds of thousands, another says 100,000, etc. The equivalent 0.3% of Ukraine's 45.7 million people is 137,100 people. The protests were on the same relative scale.


Sure. Point being is that any protest is always going to be a smallish percentage of the total population. The question is always about the degree to which that small percentage actually represents a larger number of people within the population. I mean, the occupy folks claimed to represent 99% of the US population, and we all know that was a bit inflated, right? But at the end of the day, all protests operate on the assumption that "we represent a larger group, but we're the portion of that group willing to stand up".

The big (and IMO significant) difference is that in Kiev, the protesters were opposed by those in power, and were being shot and killed by military and police. They continued to protest in spite of this. Which is usually a hallmark of a true popular uprising (again though, I'm not saying that's a good thing, just saying what it is). In Crimea, Russian soldiers took to the streets, surrounded key government buildings and forced the parliament to appoint a PM of their choosing. 6,000 people rallying in support of Russia isn't as significant because they're on the same side as the guys with the guns. Everything else being equal, it's always easier to support the guys with the guns than to stand up against them. That's why you can't just look at the numbers by themselves.
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#129 Mar 04 2014 at 7:18 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Also communism in and of itself doesn't need to be a dictatorship, just as capitalism doesn't need be a democracy.


The second part is true, but the first part is more or less playing with definitions. Sure. Technically, a dictatorship is rule by a single dictator, so you're right. But that's also not the point at hand. The USSR was never a dictatorship by literal definition.

The broader question is the degree to which a government is "authoritarian". How much power does it wield directly over the people. And in that way, communism must always be authoritarian. The degree to which the government controls industry (command economy) must also correspond to a degree of authoritarianism. While capitalism is no guarantee of a less-authoritarian government, it at least allows for it, where communism does not.


Quote:
Obviously it is easier to corrupt a government in a Communism, and it is easier for capitalism to thrive in a democracy.


Again, I don't think it's just about corruption. Depending on how we define corrupt, both can be corrupt. Obviously, the more power there is in government, the more potential for corruption (in government), but that's more a function of people who like to abuse power going to where the most power is.


Quote:
But these are economic ideologies, not inherently Government archetypes. You can just as easily be a Communist Democracy, as you can be a Capitalist Dictatorship. Or you could be some type of Hybrid Socialist Democracy (Canada) or Socialist Dictatorship (China).


I think sometimes we can get too caught up in labels and fail to step back and look at the broader picture.
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#130 Mar 04 2014 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
he broader question is the degree to which a government is "authoritarian". How much power does it wield directly over the people. And in that way, communism must always be authoritarian. The degree to which the government controls industry (command economy) must also correspond to a degree of authoritarianism. While capitalism is no guarantee of a less-authoritarian government, it at least allows for it, where communism does not.


No, the syndie breeds are not really authoritarian.
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#131 Mar 05 2014 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
How it all got started

Part 1: http://imgur.com/gallery/0CjVCM6
Part:2: http://imgur.com/gallery/KZQhLp8
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#132 Mar 05 2014 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Likely summary of the Russian take on the situation. There's a lot of a gap there to find common ground or whatever you want to call it.
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#133 Mar 05 2014 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Likely summary of the Russian take on the situation. There's a lot of a gap there to find common ground or whatever you want to call it.
Boy I hope that is not indicative of the intelligence level or sentiments of the average decision-making Russian.

Maybe it lost much in translation.
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#134 Mar 05 2014 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dunno, the BBC writer who posted the link likes the source as a good indicator as to what's going on in the minds of the Kremlin, for what it's worth. Those three demands seem to be in line with the general background rhetoric. Wouldn't be surprised if that's the gist of the pitch their foreign affairs guy is making to the US/EU at the moment.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:54am by someproteinguy
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#135 Mar 05 2014 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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No, the syndie breeds are not really authoritarian.

It's not worth it, trust me. He's literally incapable of understanding syndicalism in any meaningful way.
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#136 Mar 05 2014 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Likely summary of the Russian take on the situation. There's a lot of a gap there to find common ground or whatever you want to call it.
Boy I hope that is not indicative of the intelligence level or sentiments of the average decision-making Russian.

Maybe it lost much in translation.


The demands are pretty much what Russia wants, and arguably they make a good case. Despite the ousted PM being tied to the East, he was elected, and he was removed through shady means, and all signs point that there was a coup and not a democratic change. (like the Orange Revolution). But Russia isn't going to go to war unless the the West pushes that as the only option (by attacking themselves, or supporting Ukraine in an assault in the east).

The language law was in place, and the first act of this interim government was to abolish equal language laws, for whatever reason. when half the country speaks Russian generally you would accept Russian as a national language, but Yats and Co. Changed that for whatever reason.

Ukraine totally needs to overhaul its government, it is way to corrupt, on both sides of the fence, and despite who gets in there they walk away millionaires and the people suffer. Even the little tart Yulia Tymoshenko abused powers of the office and was found guilty of abuse of power...and she was the hero of the Orange Revolution. Moscow is right in the sense Ukraine needs to adopt a stronger Constitution and hold its politicians to be more accountable for the people of the Ukraine and not East or West.

Elections sooner rather than later. This goes without saying. None of the people in power were elected to those positions and as such should no hold them with any longevity. This is probably the most agreeable to both sides, as the US has always been a strong proponent of getting people involved in the democratic process, and Moscow is certainly on point with third parties scrutinizing the result closely...lest you end up with another Egypt or Tunisa where change was desired by the people but never came.

Ultimately the writer is wildly off base on the only option being War. If the US stops talking in Ukraines ear and the EU and Russia can get the deal from 2 weeks ago back on the table (that all parties agreed to) then the problem will likely be resolved with a summer time election. There was no reason other than the US becoming involved that this deal would suddenly be bad, when everyone agreed to it before Washington got involved.

If this goes to war it is pretty much entirely on Obama, and the US state department getting involved in matters that really didn't concern them. But we all know that this was a planned event because a month ago Victoria Nuland and Geoffry Pyatt were discussing the players they wanted in place moving forward...and thats exactly who the EU and Russia, and Ukrainian people are now dealing with.

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#137 Mar 05 2014 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is a surprising* number of **** fakes of Yulia Tymoshenko when you image search her. And many of them are pretty funny since she always has some fairly stoic expression as she's getting railed in the **** or showing you her fake boobs.


*Well, I guess I shouldn't be 'surprised'...
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#138 Mar 05 2014 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
There is a surprising* number of **** fakes of Yulia Tymoshenko when you image search her. And many of them are pretty funny since she always has some fairly stoic expression as she's getting railed in the **** or showing you her fake boobs.


*Well, I guess I shouldn't be 'surprised'...


I must have some filters on that I am unaware of, because I didn't see anything more risque than her showing some bruises on her abdomen.
#139 Mar 05 2014 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
There is a surprising* number of **** fakes of Yulia Tymoshenko when you image search her. And many of them are pretty funny since she always has some fairly stoic expression as she's getting railed in the **** or showing you her fake boobs.


*Well, I guess I shouldn't be 'surprised'...


I just Googled her and found out that she's 53, she **** looks like she's in her 20's. How much of the national budget went to her face? Smiley: yikes
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#140 Mar 05 2014 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I must have some filters on that I am unaware of, because I didn't see anything more risque than her showing some bruises on her abdomen.

Unfiltered Bing Images, it starts about 15ish lines down (depending on monitor resolution, I guess) and continues from there.

Although it amuses me deeply to know that I got you to look for Yulia Tymoshenko **** Smiley: laugh
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#141 Mar 05 2014 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I must have some filters on that I am unaware of, because I didn't see anything more risque than her showing some bruises on her abdomen.

Unfiltered Bing Images, it starts about 15ish lines down (depending on monitor resolution, I guess) and continues from there.

Although it amuses me deeply to know that I got you to look for Yulia Tymoshenko **** Smiley: laugh


Yuk it up, chuckles.

And I don't use Bing, so that explains that.
#142 Mar 05 2014 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
*Well, I guess I shouldn't be 'surprised'...
Welcome to Rule 34.
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#143 Mar 05 2014 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
I don't even need to see the fake **** to know id probably not think twice about entering into a ukranian camel with her, or the less freaky Ukranian jackhammer.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 3:26pm by rdmcandie
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#144 Mar 05 2014 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I'm sure the only reason she exists is to slake your manly sexual desires....
#145 Mar 05 2014 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure the only reason she exists is to slake your manly sexual desires....

Ive always wanted to bang a convict. (also incase you couldnt tell, I was being facetious)


Edited, Mar 5th 2014 3:36pm by rdmcandie
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#146 Mar 05 2014 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And I don't use Bing, so that explains that.

I use them for image searches because Google Images does too much quiet censorship and second-guessing you in the background.
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#147 Mar 05 2014 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And I don't use Bing, so that explains that.

I use them for image searches because Google Images does too much quiet censorship and second-guessing you in the background.

Just like =4 grrrr Google.
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#148 Mar 05 2014 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quickly making my list of favorite quotes from this forum:

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I searched "worst search engine to find porn" into both Google and Bing. Google's results were all about managing the hunt for child pornography and how the US rejects the idea of automatic **** filtering.

Bing's results were a whole bunch of **** sites
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#149 Mar 05 2014 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And I don't use Bing, so that explains that.

I use them for image searches because Google Images does too much quiet censorship and second-guessing you in the background.


They cut out fake-porn of Ukranian leaders, for example.
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#150 Mar 05 2014 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Precisely. Who is Google to guess what my motivations are for searching for images of international political figures?
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#151 Mar 05 2014 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
he broader question is the degree to which a government is "authoritarian". How much power does it wield directly over the people. And in that way, communism must always be authoritarian. The degree to which the government controls industry (command economy) must also correspond to a degree of authoritarianism. While capitalism is no guarantee of a less-authoritarian government, it at least allows for it, where communism does not.


No, the syndie breeds are not really authoritarian.


Sigh. Smash's comment aside, Syndicalism is no less authoritarian, it's just tailored to make it look less so to the uninformed masses. Actually, let me be more clear: In theory it would be less so, just like in theory Communisim would have no government control over industry either. The problem is that, just as with communism, no attempt to actually implement syndicalism has ever existed that didn't involve the government more or less directly controlling and enforcing the syndicates.

It's just like claiming that public sector unions are really about the will of the workers. Yeah. And I've got a bridge to sell ya!
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