Flat Earth cirruculum..Follow

Meh, we can't even agree what the constitution is talking about and that's just a couple hundred years old. Just wait until it's 10 times that age, been translated numerous times, and we've lost all sense of the original context in which it was written.

Why must you hate freedom so much?

Yeah. I get that this maybe is a subtle point, but it's about perception. You are free (encouraged in fact) to have faith in your own salvation, but no one, not even you can know for sure (again though, that's what faith is for, right?). The point being that others are external to you, so telling others that "I'm saved", or worse "You're not saved" is not what you should be doing. Does that make sense?



See, this is where I disagree though. You can't accept Jesus into your heart and simultaneously ignore his teachings. This is what I was trying to get across when I spoke about just proclaiming faith not being sufficient. Obviously, no one else can judge whether you're saved or not, but I don't agree with the idea of teaching people that "being saved" is distinct from "living a good/christian life". I just see that as a cop out used as an excuse for bad behavior, and I'm going to go out on a limb and suspect that a supreme being isn't going to be fooled by it.

I kinda see it the same way as someone thinking that he can do anything he wants during his life, and then confess his sins on his death bed, and it'll be peachy. It *might* be, if the confession is sincere. But if he intentionally choose to live a nasty mean life expecting that he can just use his "get out of hell free card" at the last moment, then the confession can't be sincere. Similarly, thinking "I just have to accept Jesus into my heart, but that doesn't mean I have to be a good person" isn't likely to work.

Course, it *might* work. But it's probably not a particularly useful concept from a doctrinal point of view. Also, not terribly useful from a social point of view either. As I've mentioned before, religion (not the same as faith) primarily serves the purpose of creating and encouraging desires social rules and behaviors. So teaching people "you can sin all you want and it doesn't matter as long as you truly believe in Jesus as your savior", isn't terribly useful. And yeah, I get that not everyone thinks religion or faith *should* be about that.

Maybe it's the pragmatist in me, but I think that faith should have a purpose beyond just being faith. I think I mentioned this earlier where I said that having just faith in God, without faith in any sort of teachings derived from or associated with that faith in God, seems kinda pointless. While many people rail about "organized religion" with its rules and dogma, at least there's the potential for other benefits, while faith for faith's really doesn't. You're free to disagree, of course. :)

If I admit that, as an atheist, I'm banking on that, does it still count?

I make the homeless fight over turkey sandwiches, Thunderdome style.

Sure there's a difference. The latter is a subset of the former.

I get what you are saying.. and there certainly can be moments of doubt.. I am still uncomfortable by the "Stepford Christians" but I still stand by the fact that theologically; I know that I am saved; but do get our point that I can yell that until I'm blue in the face but it really makes no difference to other people because they cannot know my heart.. It makes sense. I think in my view it's a theological/hermeneutic question of whether or not you can lose salvation or not.



Simply put: living a "good life" as you say is a bi-product of being saved.. To be saved and to comprehend what that really means will usually lead one to be driven to live life as Christ did... but not out of obligation and not out of fear but our of gratitude and respect as well as genuine Love...
But there are cases of people that have "problems" socially.. They can be saved but they slip up all the time..
The difference is not "practicing" such things..



This is more "cart before horse" thing in a way..
The purpose of The Messiah is not to teach people to live a better life so that humans can evolve socially and improve the world that we live in.. This world that we are living in is said to be "passing away" under a curse.. It is the real reason why everything falls apart.. why death exists.. et cetera..
Now I am not saying that we shouldn't do everything that we can to STRIVE to make things better for our home here on earth! Not at all! That should be a given; but to think that one day someone is going to "Buy The World a Coke" and teach us all to sing in perfect harmony is just false.. You can try to cook rotten meat and put all the spices you want on it.. but it is still rancid.. It must be tossed away.
The Messiah is given to save us from this hopeless state of affairs.
There is a particular Christian doctrine called "Dominionism" that thinks that one day Christians are going to all take over the earth and usher in a "new age".... it's false. No humans are going to achieve this until Christ returns.. and when that happens He will be the one ushering in the New Age after this old rotten era is judged and eradicated...
But does this mean that I should treat everyone like crap just because I think they are overcome by their wickedness? NO!! Because if I follow Christ's teachings I cannot view myself as "above" anybody else saved or no.. because before this happened to me I ridiculed Christians just as most of you do.. To deny that we have a wicked nature is the real delusion.. Wickedness doesn't have to mean that you like to strangle kittens.. it simply means that you glorify yourself more than you glorify your Creator. It's as simple as that. Unless we are preserved by the Holy Spirit then we shall rot away just like the rest of this creation.



I think you're using a logical fallacy to say that just because Salvation doesn't equate to automatically living a righteous life means that we shouldn't seek and strive to do so.. There should be no question as to whether we should be "good people" and help those in need.. but as many others point out.. you can help old ladies across the street all day long and donate all of your life savings to orphans.. or go and feed the homeless your entire life and it will not equate to salvation. If you are not doing something for the glory of God then you are doing it for the glory of your ego, period.
We are born with a wicked self-seeking nature.. even as a child I naturally stole, and lied, and cheated... Ever noticed that you don't have to teach a child to do those things but you always have to teach them not to do them? Wickedness (in human standards) is perfectly natural.. I'm a thief, and I'm a liar.. in a nutshell I'm NOT PERFECT. None of us are.. and that which is not perfect can stand before a Perfect God.. There is no good deed that we can ever do that can cancel out out imperfect nature.. No truly just judge would ever excuse a thief or a murderer simply because they dedicated themselves to good works after the fact. This is why "born again". We are not to have our hearts/minds/souls be cleansed and polished.. but totally replaced.

/ramble off



I agree with you as well.. Surely I think that I was a pretty nice guy before I became a Christian and it wasn't because I just believed in some kind of karma(I think). It made me feel good about myself to do nice things for people.. but isn't even that just feeding my ego? Plus, even after being a "good person" (relatively) I would still not hesitate to **** all over somebody that disagreed with my views about something.. In all honestly.. I wouldn't have hesitated to back-stab a person for the sake of lust (so be quite honest).. Sure I was nice to my friends.. but even the douchiest douchebag in the world is nice to the people that he likes... Just being a nice person isn't enough for "acceptance into Heaven". You may say to yourself.. well I would never do any of those things.. I would never cheat on someone.. I would never steal.. lie.. cheat..
I myself still can't honestly say that I would never do those things again. I certainly try not to.. but not out of fear of getting kicked out of the Jesus-club.. but because (like you say) it is the right thing to do. However I have known and been parts of groups of people that bragged all the time about stealing.. bragged about how many '******** they banged.. It's still moral relativism..
Ergo the only thing that we can really agree on is that none of us are perfect and ever will be.


I can see what you mean and why it all seems absurd to you; but consider that there are other forces as work besides the Holy Spirit competing for our souls.. Call it whatever you like.. there are dark/evil forces out there struggling to get us to follow them... Now for some people to simply reject God is good enough and that's as far as they go.. but some people allow themselves to be led down much darker paths.. and I daresay that the farther you are willing to go down those paths that the more difficult that it would be for you to repent of those things.. I'm not saying that Jeffery Dalmer-esque people are beyond redemption; I'm saying that because of an individuals love of 'wickedness' they are less willing to reject that wickedness... Free-will. Some people will never reject their lusts.. It's not that a wolf isn't capable of choosing a hot-fudge sundae over a bloody steak.. it's just that they will choose the steak every time because it's just what they want.



I think anyone only being nice because their parents told them to or their teachers told them to or their priest told them to will always slip up... The point is we are all faking it.. The key here is to have the power to realize it and admit it and to have the will to do something about it.
Look at it this way.. we're all nice enough when our bellies are full and we're warm and have a roof over our head.. Can you honestly say what kind of person your would be if these things were not the case? Even the stoic elephant will sacrifice their own children for preserve their own lives.
Usually it takes "slipping up" for us to realize that we need help.. I always detested men that cheating on their others.. until I did it... I detested hypocrites.. until I stopped fooling myself that I wasn't one.. same goes for anything else that people fool themselves about. In the right situation would you murder someone for food and shelter? You may talk about impossible situations.. et al but the truth is that we are what we are.. and it's usually not what we pretend to be. This is why we need to be given entirely new natures via God/Annointed One/HaMessiach/Jesus..

/ramblingenabled false

That's not how Kelv means it though. Well, I hope it's not. I agree that my big issue is that many BA Christians wear their salvation like a badge of honor, while engaging in behavior that makes it obvious that they didn't "accept Jesus Christ into their hearts" in any way other than standing before a group of people and declaring it so. In theory though, accepting "Christ into your heart" and "being saved" and "living a good life" are all the same thing. If you accept Christ into your heart, it will guide you to live a good life, and result in salvation. It's just phrased the way Kelv puts it because he's more or less making a similar argument to mine. It should not be about buying your way into heaven with good works.


It's just hard sometimes linguistically to express the concept.

I'm not sure of I would call a Christian that isn't born-again a Christian... and at the risk of sounding self-righteous.. a True Christian should be defined by being saved from sin and free of judgment and guilt through the blood and resurrection of The Messiah (via indwelling of the Holy Spirit)
Spoiler1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


Now sure.. someone can label themselves anything they want.. but it doesn't make it true.. Many people think that they can be Christians by default simply because they are Americans.. or because they go to church on holidays.. It really doesn't work that way.
It's like me calling myself a tennis player just because I have some tennis rackets in my trunk.. nope.


Edited, Mar 17th 2014 6:06pm by Kelvyquayo

lol
I don't think that being a Christian makes me better than anyone else or to anyone else...
I look at it more like a scale.. I stand on the scale and see how much weight I need to lose.. The scale isn't doing anything to make me any less fat.. it just tell me how much I need to lose weight..
Would that make Jesus, Richard Simmons?... maybe

Well sure, they'd be happier until they drop dead from being a ******
The point is scales(numbers) don't lie.

Why, what's wrong with the Bible?

I don't disagree.