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#277 Mar 06 2014 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There was a great mountain. And upon the mountain, at its highest point, there was a great monastery full of light and warmth and wisdom. One day, as night was falling on the mountain, the monks within heard a knocking at the door. They looked out through the grate and saw a man standing there. They asked him "Why have you come to this monastery?". He replied "I was traveling upon the mountain. I walked along its paths, explored its valleys, and climbed its peaks. And the more I saw the more I realized how magnificent it was. Each new discovery lead to another, and another, and I have enjoyed every step of my journey. And as I had explored all of the mountain that I could, the daylight waned, and I found myself here before the door to this monastery, and I thought to take my rest here". "Ah", said the monks. "We too love the mountain and all of its wonderful gifts. We built our monastery here so that those who held the same appreciation could rest here after their journey was done. You are welcome to come inside".

A short time later, another knock came at the door. Again, the monks looked out through the grate and saw a man standing there, shivering in the early night chill. "Why have you come to this monastery?" they asked. He replied "I heard tales of this great monastery and the wonders within. I have spent much time seeking out the greatest wise men to learn of it and searching for maps which would guide me to it. I had to struggle through difficult paths, treacherous valleys, and steep dangerous peaks. But during my journey, no matter how many obstacles appeared in my way, or distractions threatened to take me away from the path, I persevered and continued onward, ever seeking my end goal. And finally, now that night is upon me, I have found the door to this greatest of places and I would like to come in so I may enjoy the wonders which exist within." "Oh", said the monks. "We're sorry. There is no great wisdom for you here. You were supposed to learn it during your journey on the mountain. But you avoided all the lessons it had to teach you. In your haste to get to your journey's end, you have missed the point of the journey itself. We cannot let you in".

And so the man was lost out in the dark and the cold for the whole long night
.

Make sense to you? Don't put so much weight on salvation that you forget to live your life.


There is much to be said of this parable that you have written. However, rather than give you some kind of philosophical analysis of it I will point you to a parable of Christ that I believe is quite remarkably apropos and I will pray that you take it to heart (and mind).

Matthew 20 - The Parable of the Vineyard Workers 1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the workers on one denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 When he went out about nine in the morning, he saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 To those men he said, ‘You also go to my vineyard, and I’ll give you whatever is right.’ So off they went. 5 About noon and at three, he went out again and did the same thing. 6 Then about five he went and found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one hired us,’ they said to him.

“‘You also go to my vineyard,’ he told them.8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard told his foreman, ‘Call the workers and give them their pay, starting with the last and ending with the first.’

9 “When those who were hired about five came, they each received one denarius. 10 So when the first ones came, they assumed they would get more, but they also received a denarius each. 11 When they received it, they began to complain to the landowner: 12 ‘These last men put in one hour, and you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’

13 “He replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I’m doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me on a denarius? 14 Take what’s yours and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my business? Are you jealous because I’m generous?’


This seems to be the answer to your problem with Christ (and religion in general I suppose). you see: in your parable the inhabitants of the monastery were quite ready to judge and condemn the other people seeking entrance due to the quality and circumstances of their journey just like the laborers in Christ parable were ready to judge and condemn certain laborers and deny them their wages because of the quality and circumstances of their labors.. however Christ makes it clear that ALL are welcome regardless of their journey.. as He says "Are you jealous because I am generous?".
Do you see? Do not put so much weight on your earthly life and forget about salvation.


I enjoyed the parable. It is shockingly relevant to the modern day. Especially in regards to the minimum wage issue in the US. Many people fretting because they think they are worth more for doing the same job longer.
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#278 Mar 06 2014 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Haha, I thought of the same parable during the minimum wage argument although I figured "because God says so" wasn't what I wanted to base an economic policy argument on.
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#279 Mar 06 2014 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Haha, I thought of the same parable during the minimum wage argument although I figured "because God says so" wasn't what I wanted to base an economic policy argument on.
It would probably work until someone wanted a wedding cake.
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#280 Mar 11 2014 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
There is much to be said of this parable that you have written. However, rather than give you some kind of philosophical analysis of it I will point you to a parable of Christ that I believe is quite remarkably apropos and I will pray that you take it to heart (and mind).

Matthew 20 - The Parable of the Vineyard Workers 1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the workers on one denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 When he went out about nine in the morning, he saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 To those men he said, ‘You also go to my vineyard, and I’ll give you whatever is right.’ So off they went. 5 About noon and at three, he went out again and did the same thing. 6 Then about five he went and found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one hired us,’ they said to him.

“‘You also go to my vineyard,’ he told them.8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard told his foreman, ‘Call the workers and give them their pay, starting with the last and ending with the first.’

9 “When those who were hired about five came, they each received one denarius. 10 So when the first ones came, they assumed they would get more, but they also received a denarius each. 11 When they received it, they began to complain to the landowner: 12 ‘These last men put in one hour, and you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’

13 “He replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I’m doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me on a denarius? 14 Take what’s yours and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my business? Are you jealous because I’m generous?’


This seems to be the answer to your problem with Christ (and religion in general I suppose). you see: in your parable the inhabitants of the monastery were quite ready to judge and condemn the other people seeking entrance due to the quality and circumstances of their journey just like the laborers in Christ parable were ready to judge and condemn certain laborers and deny them their wages because of the quality and circumstances of their labors.. however Christ makes it clear that ALL are welcome regardless of their journey.. as He says "Are you jealous because I am generous?".
Do you see? Do not put so much weight on your earthly life and forget about salvation.


That would be a valid point if I was talking about one of the men complaining that he got an unfair reception relative to the other. But it's not about that. It's about something that you should already know very very well. Only God gets to decide what criteria to use to determine who gets into heaven. Period. Any theology that rests on an assumption that you "know" what to do to be saved, or believe that you are saved, is in direct violation with the dozens of direct statements to the contrary.

The point of my parable was that the second man thought he knew how to get to heaven (well, thought there was value in trying to figure out how to get there anyway). And he was wrong, and suffered for his hubris. What you seem to have gotten backwards with the parable of the vineyard workers is that it was the owner of the vineyard, not the workers, who got to decide what was "fair". It would have been just as wrong for the workers who arrived later to assume they would receive the same pay as those who had worked all day. That's the point. You don't get to decide that you've figured out the correct reward for your actions. God makes that decision. Period. No exceptions. That's the point of the parable.

Similarly, in my parable, the monks get to decide who to let into the monastery, not the travelers. So while that's not the direct point I was trying to make with it, it's not countered by the parable you quoted one bit.
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#281 Mar 11 2014 at 9:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, the point of the Vineyard parable is that Heaven is the ultimate reward of all who are saved, from the pious since birth to the deathbed repentant sinner. The worker is indeed complaining that his reward was identical to the reward of the Johnny-Come-Lately's.
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#282 Mar 11 2014 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

That would be a valid point if I was talking about one of the men complaining that he got an unfair reception relative to the other. But it's not about that. It's about something that you should already know very very well. Only God gets to decide what criteria to use to determine who gets into heaven. Period.


False the only criteria to enter heaven is faith in one Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for all mans sins. Entry to the kingdom is through Jesus Christ, Go read a bible Gbaji!.
An alternate way into heaven is to become Muslim, and suicide bomb a village, there you will be greated by virgins and Abrahams Father with open arms. Go read a Qu'Ran Gbaji!
Or you can be a Jew and claim you have a right by birth, God makes no decree at all, if you are born a Jew you ascend to the heavens to join Abrahams Father. Go read a Tanahk Gbaji!

I love it when folks who don't know anything about religion begin to lecture people on how religion works. God hasn't been a relevant vehicle to heaven since Noah built his ark.
(speaking purely from biblical history of course.)




Edited, Mar 11th 2014 11:38pm by rdmcandie
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#283 Mar 11 2014 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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But, aren't those true only because God made it so? Then gbaji would be right, since he said God decides the criteria for deciding who gets into Heaven.
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#284 Mar 11 2014 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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No one is arguing that God chooses who gets into Heaven (according to the Christian theology anyway). However, that isn't the point of the vineyard parable.
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#285 Mar 12 2014 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
But, aren't those true only because God made it so? Then gbaji would be right, since he said God decides the criteria for deciding who gets into Heaven.

I guess in a round about way. Technically since Noah the road to heaven has been in the hands of men and only men. Gods pact with Noah was his removal from the equation. He said he would no longer be the judge of men, and that he would no longer hold men accountable, that this would be upon men to do. Men would forgive men, men would condemn men, and that the gates to heaven would ultimately be opened by a man (St Peter.)

According to Biblical text anyway. So really since Noah, Man has decided the criteria for entrance to heaven.

Edited, Mar 12th 2014 7:09am by rdmcandie
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#286 Mar 12 2014 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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rdncandie wrote:
An alternate way into heaven is to become Muslim, and suicide bomb a village, there you will be greated by virgins and Abrahams Father with open arms.
I guess in the same way that the Bible says to invade non-Christian countries and impose Christianity through intimidation and death.
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#287 Mar 12 2014 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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All of the major religions have been used, at one time or another, to justify war-mongering.


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#288 Mar 12 2014 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
All of the major religions have been used, at one time or another, to justify war-mongering.


Naturally their texts were written by men, and thus can be made to suit the wills of men. Its why Religion is the biggest sham going. Faith in a God or w/e is a natural thing. Organized Religion is a crapshoot at best.

Edited, Mar 12th 2014 10:22am by rdmcandie
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#289 Mar 12 2014 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
Gbaji is arguing the Calvinist/predestination viewpoint, which is one frequently used by the wealthy as an excuse for not giving to the poor. I've never been a fan of it.
#290 Mar 12 2014 at 2:25 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
No, the point of the Vineyard parable is that Heaven is the ultimate reward of all who are saved, from the pious since birth to the deathbed repentant sinner. The worker is indeed complaining that his reward was identical to the reward of the Johnny-Come-Lately's.


Um... And also that it's God (aka the Vineyard owner) who decides the reward, not the workers. And I didn't say it wasn't the worker who was complaining, so I'm not sure what your point was with that. I was responding to a claim that this differed from my parable, but in both it's the Vineyard/Monks who decide who gets the reward, not the travellers/workers. Get it?
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#291 Mar 12 2014 at 2:44 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
gbaji wrote:

That would be a valid point if I was talking about one of the men complaining that he got an unfair reception relative to the other. But it's not about that. It's about something that you should already know very very well. Only God gets to decide what criteria to use to determine who gets into heaven. Period.


False the only criteria to enter heaven is faith in one Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for all mans sins. Entry to the kingdom is through Jesus Christ, Go read a bible Gbaji!.


Sigh. There's some difference of opinion over what exactly "though Jesus Christ" means though. Which is kinda the point. Add in dozens of quotes from the man saying "no one but God can know who is saved and who is not", and it should be apparent that anyone claiming to be saved because they've taken Jesus Christ into their heart or followed rule X, Y, and Z, or whatever, is doing it wrong.

Doesn't mean that they aren't saved, but they can't assume it and certainly should not be walking around wearing their status like a badge of honor or something.
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#292 Mar 12 2014 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
Gbaji is arguing the Calvinist/predestination viewpoint, which is one frequently used by the wealthy as an excuse for not giving to the poor. I've never been a fan of it.


Absolutely not! Where the hell did you get that impression? I'm arguing kinda the opposite. No one can know they are saved. Period. Not the Pope. Not a born again Christian. Not Mother freaking Theresa. NO ONE. Anyone who claims to know they are saved is violating one of the key teachings of Jesus. He was specifically responding to the thought of the day that you could tell who was favored by God and who wasn't based on their earthly outcomes. Rich people must be favored because God rewarded them with riches, right? And the poor must be disfavored, else God wouldn't punish them by making them poor (or say... lepers).

The problem is that somewhere along the way, Christians have forgotten that this core teaching applies to heaven as well. And in reverse as well. Blessed are the poor doesn't mean that being poor gets you to heaven anymore than being rich indicated favor from God. That's the point.

Edited, Mar 12th 2014 1:53pm by gbaji
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#293 Mar 12 2014 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Gbaji is arguing the Calvinist/predestination viewpoint, which is one frequently used by the wealthy as an excuse for not giving to the poor. I've never been a fan of it.


Absolutely not! Where the hell did you get that impression? I'm arguing kinda the opposite. No one can know they are saved. Period. Not the Pope. Not a born again Christian.

This is just false. If you follow the words of the bible as the gospel truth, ANYONE can get into heaven by accepting Jesus into their hearts. Thats it. Poof you are magically Heaven approved. Thats all it takes nowadays. Thanks Rome! Why follow all kinds of ****** rules that don't make any sense when the only need of acceptance is.

"I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that through him I will enter his fathers kingdom." Thats it thats all.

Because this might shock you...Heaven only exists in the hearts and minds of men. Thats it. That is the big secret. If you believe you will go to heaven when you die...you will get there.
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#294 Mar 12 2014 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Has anyone thought about how silly this all sounds? I mean, imagine if I started praying to Gandalf, and saying that I accept Bilbo into my heart as my savior because he destroyed the ring, and I would be welcomed into the Shire when I died. Isn't that a little outlandish?
#295 Mar 12 2014 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Has anyone thought about how silly this all sounds? I mean, imagine if I started praying to Gandalf, and saying that I accept Bilbo into my heart as my savior because he destroyed the ring, and I would be welcomed into the Shire when I died. Isn't that a little outlandish?


That's why it's called faith, and not science. Smiley: wink

Edited, Mar 12th 2014 2:46pm by someproteinguy
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#296 Mar 12 2014 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Has anyone thought about how silly this all sounds? I mean, imagine if I started praying to Gandalf, and saying that I accept Bilbo into my heart as my savior because he destroyed the ring, and I would be welcomed into the Shire when I died. Isn't that a little outlandish?

Not if you believe it.

The power of religion exists solely in you.

And Jesus said!

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!, for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:21.

Edited, Mar 12th 2014 5:49pm by rdmcandie
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#297 Mar 12 2014 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Has anyone thought about how silly this all sounds? I mean, imagine if I started praying to Gandalf, and saying that I accept Bilbo into my heart as my savior because he destroyed the ring, and I would be welcomed into the Shire when I died. Isn't that a little outlandish?


Yeah, obviously. It was Frodo/Gollum that destroyed the ring, not Bilbo.
#298 Mar 12 2014 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Has anyone thought about how silly this all sounds? I mean, imagine if I started praying to Gandalf, and saying that I accept Bilbo into my heart as my savior because he destroyed the ring, and I would be welcomed into the Shire when I died. Isn't that a little outlandish?


Yeah, obviously. It was Frodo/Gollum that destroyed the ring, not Bilbo.


Smiley: lol Whoops.
#299 Mar 12 2014 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
That's why it's called faith, and not science.
The lack of Frost Giants is a pretty compelling and easily provable.

Thor 1, Middle-Eastern Guy constantly mistaken for a blonde white dude 0.
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#300 Mar 12 2014 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
That's why it's called faith, and not science.
The lack of Frost Giants is a pretty compelling and easily provable.

Thor 1, Middle-Eastern Guy constantly mistaken for a blonde white dude 0.
I so want to get to heaven and find out Jesus was really black. Would be so much more entertaining that way.
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#301 Mar 12 2014 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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