It's a rich man's world, err... congress.Follow

Yeah it is.

Nope. That's not how capitalism works. In fact the whole idea is to make it demonstrably not true that the hardest worker succeeds.

"Bailiwick" is such a great word.

Well yeah. I can work my butt off but if I have low IQ and a social anxiety disorder the options are limited. The point is to work hard doing something that's valued, if you're incapable if doing anything resembling skilled work the future isn't so bright.

I didn't realize subsistence was the goal

Simply being able to support yourself puts you in the poverty zone. That is not success.

You know, if you quit your job voluntarily you don't get unemployment insurance.

You only qualify for it if you had a job and you were laid off through no fault of your own. (Such as being downsized, or having the company sold to new management, or the position being eliminated, etc.)

People don't just decide one day "Hey, the government will give me free money if I'm not working!" and quit their jobs to draw on unemployment benefits instead.

They also don't get to view their choices of college education, getting a vocational job, and drawing unemployment insurance, because you don't qualify for UI if you've never worked before.

Wrong.

I come from an extremely underprivileged background (for a North American) yet I'm vastly out-performing my cohort in pretty much every way. I don't know of a single person with a similar background who is doing as well as I am monetarily, professionally etc.

For example, people from my demographic background have up to an 80% drop out rate, and a substantial percentage of homeless people in my jurisdiction share similar histories to mine.

I'm lucky because:

a) I wasn't born with fetal alcohol syndrome or any other severe disability
b) I grew up loving reading and wanting to be a writer
c) A good number of caring people took it upon themselves to help me and teach me whatever they could
d) Because of my aforementioned literacy skills I was able to navigate government bureaucracies and advocate for myself
e) I never developed a drug addiction
f) I ended up with an excellent psychiatrist as a teenager who helped me break destructive behaviours before adulthood
g) A bunch of other very lucky breaks came my way professionally.
h) I'm white.

Did I work for my luck, yes, I did. However, if I was born with fetal alcohol syndrome no amount of "hard work" on my part would have given me the opportunities I enjoy today. Is it fair for someone born with that kind of disability should live a fundamentally less pleasant and stable life than the one I enjoy? I don't think so.

Even aside from "birth lottery" breaks like my intelligence and my lack of crippling disabilities, much of the success I enjoy today would be completely impossible without the good fortune I enjoyed in terms of people giving me a hand up.

It's not about expecting the poor to "miracle themselves out of poverty" - it's about recognizing that people who continue to be poor aren't there because they don't "work hard" enough. It's a freaking lottery. They might and probably do work incredibly hard. It doesn't make a difference if the only work that is available for someone with your skills pays starvation wages.

Again, I'm not saying people who do succeed didn't also work hard, but hard work alone is useless. If hard work was what it took to be successful and comfortable all the factory workers in China would be millionaires. Clearly, that's not the case.

Edited, Jan 14th 2014 3:47pm by Olorinus

You're changing the subject though. The issue was whether or not a poor person is more likely to get themselves out of poverty if they work hard versus if they do not. And, everything else remaining the same, the guy who works harder is more likely to succeed than the guy who doesn't.

This is not the same as saying that people who work the hardest are the most successful across the board. But for any two people with identical starting conditions, the difference in outcomes are going to nearly always be in alignment with the difference in their own efforts. It's kinda moronic to even think otherwise.

Luck is great and all, but if you don't seize opportunities when they come along, all the lucky breaks in the world wont help. It's really annoying when people try to make this "lottery" argument, as though luck is all that matters. I'm sorry, but that's just complete and utter BS.

Obviously in America you don't want to be the guy digging the ditch. You want to be the guy that gets the $1000.00 contract to dig a ditch and has the funds to front some poor schmucks 200 bucks to actually dig the ditch, but I still think hard work, or at least the "right" kind of hard work can hedge your bets when/if lady luck smiles upon you.

Eddie Van Halen isn't a multi millionaire because he didn't practice his *** off.

Not exactly the greatest example. Music does not really have the best "Hard Work = Success" correlation.

Edited, Jan 14th 2014 10:10pm by TirithRR