They're not really seeing eye to eye on economic need and greed. Who has the most to lose in this battle of morals v means?
Edited, Jan 3rd 2014 6:41pm by Elinda
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Alma wrote:
I lost my post
shouldn't it be </3?
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
I just wasn't sure how to express myself emotically. 
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
Is this about the pope's speech? If the rich people are giving to the church, being charitable, etc. they probably aren't the wealthy he was grumbling about.
Smile and nod, just smile and nod. 
Elinda wrote:
I just wasn't sure how to express myself emotically.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
The new Argentinan Pope brings to light an uncomfortable truth for conservatives. I mentioned it back after the election before we got a new Pope so now I can quote myself and feel like a prophet:
Pope Francis puts a face on this reality: Catholic ideals of compassion, social justice and charity aren't especially compatible with US conservatism. It worked fine when you focused on gays and abortion, it works less so when you move into the "softer" aspects. This guy is focused on that stuff and is very popular and it's driving some folks bonkers.
Also, I've been very amused to listen to non-Catholic conservative pundits angrily tell me how the Catholic Pope should be acting
I once wrote:
Who is the most actively revered figure in Latino Catholicism? It's not Jesus, it's Mary. The most successful Protestant missionary movements in Central and South America have been ones that took on a Marian theology. These Hispanics aren't as taken by Italian-style guilt and threats of hell for sinning or Polish-style stoicism, they're attracted to Marian ideals of love, compassion, helping the downtrodden, caring for the weak, etc. And that attitude isn't purely a religious one but one that has become cultural.
Republican conservatism doesn't fit. Conservative ideals of "You should be charitable but the government shouldn't be" is like being told "Well, you should give but the Church as an institution isn't going to give anything to the poor. You do that yourself." The Republican stance on immigration (such as there is one) is hostile to those ideals. It splits families and attacks the poorest and most vulnerable. Attacks on welfare, social services, unemployment, etc are much the same.
That's absolutely not to say that they are not hard working or want to be on those programs. But rather their philosophy is that the programs should be there and should be strong. Democrats support that idea more than Republicans do.
I find it interesting because I've always subscribed to the same myth the GOP does, that if you just smoothed out immigration, Hispanics would culturally become good socially conservative Republicans. Catholicism was always the keystone of that argument. But I was looking at it through the lens of my own Polish Catholic "Keep quiet and get back to work; you're a good Catholic by working hard and following the rules" upbringing. And I think most Republicans expect all the other Papists to follow the same sort of European rules (along with the Italian guilt theology) and I don't think it holds.
Republican conservatism doesn't fit. Conservative ideals of "You should be charitable but the government shouldn't be" is like being told "Well, you should give but the Church as an institution isn't going to give anything to the poor. You do that yourself." The Republican stance on immigration (such as there is one) is hostile to those ideals. It splits families and attacks the poorest and most vulnerable. Attacks on welfare, social services, unemployment, etc are much the same.
That's absolutely not to say that they are not hard working or want to be on those programs. But rather their philosophy is that the programs should be there and should be strong. Democrats support that idea more than Republicans do.
I find it interesting because I've always subscribed to the same myth the GOP does, that if you just smoothed out immigration, Hispanics would culturally become good socially conservative Republicans. Catholicism was always the keystone of that argument. But I was looking at it through the lens of my own Polish Catholic "Keep quiet and get back to work; you're a good Catholic by working hard and following the rules" upbringing. And I think most Republicans expect all the other Papists to follow the same sort of European rules (along with the Italian guilt theology) and I don't think it holds.
Pope Francis puts a face on this reality: Catholic ideals of compassion, social justice and charity aren't especially compatible with US conservatism. It worked fine when you focused on gays and abortion, it works less so when you move into the "softer" aspects. This guy is focused on that stuff and is very popular and it's driving some folks bonkers.
Also, I've been very amused to listen to non-Catholic conservative pundits angrily tell me how the Catholic Pope should be acting
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
Is this about the pope's speech?
Most recently the founder of Home Depot, in regards to some rich white man church rebuild says...
Quote:
...that at at least one potential seven-figure donor was “concerned†about the Pope’s remarks.
Are scare tactics valid when used on God's Shepard?
Edited, Jan 3rd 2014 6:55pm by Elinda
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
Elinda wrote:
Quote:
Is this about the pope's speech?
Most recently the founder of Home Depot, in regards to some rich white man church rebuild says...
Quote:
...that at at least one potential seven-figure donor was “concerned†about the Pope’s remarks.
Are scare tactics valid when used on God's Shepard?
I can't imagine 7 figures buys you that much of the Pope's ear either way.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
The articles about it are bit off-putting. A lot of implied "This guy doesn't know who he's dealing with" and "He's just some backwood guy who doesn't know how it works here"...
Thank Heavens we have the founder of Home Depot here to tell the cardinal how to run the New York ministry and an AEI wonk to comfort us that the Pope's just ignorant of how things work in the US (but presumably he'll come around).
CNBC wrote:
Langone said he's raised the issue more than once with Cardinal Timothy Dolan, archbishop of New York, most recently at a breakfast in early December at which he updated him on fundraising progress.
"I've told the cardinal, 'Your Eminence, this is one more hurdle I hope we don't have to deal with. You want to be careful about generalities. Rich people in one country don't act the same as rich people in another country,' " he said.
[...]
Langone, who describes himself as a devout Catholic who prays every morning, said he has told the cardinal that "you get more with honey than with vinegar." He said he also wants to make clear that wealthy Americans are some of the biggest donors in the world.
[...]
Brooks, also a practicing Catholic who has read the pope's exhortation in its original Spanish, said that "taken as a whole, the exhortation is good and right and beautiful. But it's limited in its understanding of economics from the American context." He noted that Francis "is not an economist and not an American."
"I've told the cardinal, 'Your Eminence, this is one more hurdle I hope we don't have to deal with. You want to be careful about generalities. Rich people in one country don't act the same as rich people in another country,' " he said.
[...]
Langone, who describes himself as a devout Catholic who prays every morning, said he has told the cardinal that "you get more with honey than with vinegar." He said he also wants to make clear that wealthy Americans are some of the biggest donors in the world.
[...]
Brooks, also a practicing Catholic who has read the pope's exhortation in its original Spanish, said that "taken as a whole, the exhortation is good and right and beautiful. But it's limited in its understanding of economics from the American context." He noted that Francis "is not an economist and not an American."
Thank Heavens we have the founder of Home Depot here to tell the cardinal how to run the New York ministry and an AEI wonk to comfort us that the Pope's just ignorant of how things work in the US (but presumably he'll come around).
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Lol, unrelated to trickle down and what-not, todays PopeQuote is kind of cute...
STORY
Quote:
Pope Francis has warned that priests can become "little monsters" if they aren't trained properly as seminarians...
STORY
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
Was the Pope not being an economist some kind of state secret? I'm pretty sure he's not a mechanic, either.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
I was shocked to learn that he's not an American.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
Catholic ideals of compassion, social justice and charity aren't especially compatible with US conservatism.
They're far less compatible with US liberalism though. You know, at the risk of applying any sort of context to this whole thing.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
You know, at the risk of applying any sort of context to this whole thing.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Catholic ideals of compassion, social justice and charity aren't especially compatible with US conservatism.
They're far less compatible with US liberalism though. You know, at the risk of applying any sort of context to this whole thing.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
gbaji wrote:
They're far less compatible with US liberalism though. You know, at the risk of applying any sort of context to this whole thing.
Funny that it's not the liberals who are flipping out and going ape over the Pope's speech though
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
They're far less compatible with US liberalism though. You know, at the risk of applying any sort of context to this whole thing.
Funny that it's not the liberals who are flipping out and going ape over the Pope's speech though
It's the liberals who are working really hard to make it seem this way. Step outside MSNBC and a few liberal editorials (with some really amusing/ridiculous misquotes) and no one's talking about this. But way to make something out of nothing, I guess.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
It's the liberals who are working really hard to make it seem this way. Step outside MSNBC and a few liberal editorials (with some really amusing/ridiculous misquotes) and no one's talking about this. But way to make something out of nothing, I guess.
Huh. So I hallucinated those times I was listening to Rush talk about it while on my lunch break. Well, Rush... MSNBC... AM talk radio... liberal editorials... all the same stuff, I guess
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's the liberals who are working really hard to make it seem this way. Step outside MSNBC and a few liberal editorials (with some really amusing/ridiculous misquotes) and no one's talking about this. But way to make something out of nothing, I guess.
Huh. So I hallucinated those times I was listening to Rush talk about it while on my lunch break. Well, Rush... MSNBC... AM talk radio... liberal editorials... all the same stuff, I guess
Um... I was saying that only liberals think this represents some kind of gulf between conservatives and the Pope. Conservatives heard what Rush said and broadly concluded that he misunderstood the Pope and/or was just plain wrong (a pretty common response to Rush by conservatives btw). Liberals heard what he said and proceeded to repeat it over and over in a bizarre attempt to drive a wedge between US conservatives and the Pope. Kinda silly IMO.
Most conservatives understood that he was speaking about the pseudo-capitalism of South America, where government placed cronies run state blessed for-profit industries and claim it's a "free market", and where there is little or no money spend on charity. This has no bearing at all on capitalism as it works in the US. And while I'm sure there are a handful of folks on the right who failed to grasp this distinction, for the most part "conservatives" in the US have no problem with what the Pope said, nor do we feel that it in any way contradicts our own political or economic ideals.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Jophiel wrote:
I was shocked to learn that he's not an American.
How can the pope come from a different country than his god?
Just as Planned.
gbaji wrote:
Um... I was saying that only liberals think this represents some kind of gulf between conservatives and the Pope.
I don't think there's a "gulf" between conservatives and the pope in that I don't think the pope was ever besties with US conservatives (any pope, really). I doubt that the pope is spending a whole lot of time wondering if the "conservatives" like him or not. Rather I think Pope Francis puts a face on Catholicism, especially among one of its largest and most active spheres of faith (Hispanics), that conservatives aren't really all that happy to see. One more interested in social justice and equality than in castigating homosexuals, single mothers and other social conservative outcasts. It's funny to listen to how often Rush tries to tamp down his listeners and calm them with stories about "Here the pope said he didn't approve of gay marriage so it's okay and all those liberals are wrong... trust me!"
Now, just to be clear, Pope Francis clearly believes that homosexuality is still a sin, is against abortion, etc and anyone thinking that was going to change is an idiot. But I'm personally surprised to even see the change in focus to "You know what? These aren't the biggest issues right now" and talk to caring for the poor, social justice and all that. Happily surprised but surprised anyway. It's really a significant shift.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Um... So you agree with me that the thread title is incorrect? Great! All I was saying.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
I think his general gist is that the mission of the Church isn't to try to stop individual sin - sin is gonna happen no matter what. Instead, the mission of the Church is to ease suffering on Earth.
Or if we do want to stop any kind of sin, we should be focusing on the kind that defrauds people monetarily and spiritually on a national and global scale. Stop trying to fight the people who are causing no direct harm (e.g. gay people) and instead fight against rampant government corruption, stock market greed, and economic inequality.
Or if we do want to stop any kind of sin, we should be focusing on the kind that defrauds people monetarily and spiritually on a national and global scale. Stop trying to fight the people who are causing no direct harm (e.g. gay people) and instead fight against rampant government corruption, stock market greed, and economic inequality.
(but presumably he'll come around)
Well, he probably will, one way or another. It's been less than a year. They'll rein him in, or kill him. What are the other viable options?
Well, he probably will, one way or another. It's been less than a year. They'll rein him in, or kill him. What are the other viable options?
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
gbaji wrote:
Um... So you agree with me that the thread title is incorrect? Great! All I was saying.
Any port in a storm, champ.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Um... So you agree with me that the thread title is incorrect? Great! All I was saying.
Any port in a storm, champ.
As long as he's right about something.
What Langone doesn't understand is that this IS honey. He's been drinking vinegar so long he's forgotten the taste.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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