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We support equality except at work!Follow

#252 Nov 17 2013 at 12:22 AM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
What do you think freedom is? Because "forced to do what your government says" isn't it.
That's a good question.. How do you define freedom? How can you have freedom without the government guaranteeing it with laws? Admittedly, you can have freedom in the sense that you can do whatever you want, but at the same time be violated.
#253 Nov 17 2013 at 12:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Liberty requires random murders, rapes and theft. The second you refuse to allow me to murder, rape and steal you are depriving me of my precious God granted Liberty.

What if I promise to only murder blacks and homosexuals? Is it okay then? I mean, refusing to murder whites is a type of discrimination and we all know that discrimination is the very soil from which the Tree of Liberty grows.
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#254 Nov 17 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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The very idea of a "free society" is a contradiction in terms. The minute you decide to live (or remain) in a society, you have agreed to give up some portion of freedom in service to the social contract.

The argument then becomes a matter of balancing one against the other. There is never going to be perfect accord. It's a constantly evolving conversation.

Part of being a citizen/statesman/grownup is in recognizing and accepting this very basic fact.
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#255 Nov 17 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
One does not decide to be born into a society; one may, if they have the means (big if), decide to leave it, but there's no choice to live in the state of nature. In the original, of course, there is no actual choice, it's just a rhetorical device to justify monarchy. The argument is 'obviously you'd choose this because this is better than chaos, which is the alternative' not 'you have chosen to accept this restriction, legitimating it'. This has the advantage of actually making sense. You can use a social contract as a metaphor to justify society based on necessity, but not based on consent. The trick is, of course, that it seems as though it does both, even though the latter is utterly senseless. That's where the rhetorical power comes from.
#256 Nov 17 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:

I've been participating in these threads for some years now and I don't recall that point EVER being made ever at all ever of all time. The *assumption* is that the average gay man who participates in those types of environments are accustomed to them (like nude European beaches) to the point where that isn't an issue.


Honey, I wasn't talking about the openly gay man.
#257 Nov 17 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I've been participating in these threads for some years now and I don't recall that point EVER being made ever at all ever of all time. The *assumption* is that the average gay man who participates in those types of environments are accustomed to them (like nude European beaches) to the point where that isn't an issue.


Honey, I wasn't talking about the openly gay man.


I wasn't specifically referring to either, so I'm not sure how being "open" would be a difference. If you misunderstood, my point is that in public nude beaches, first timers probably walk around with erections. The veterans probably do not. Actually, I heard that one can be fined if they do. Those heterophobes!
#258 Nov 17 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
One does not decide to be born into a society; one may, if they have the means (big if), decide to leave it, but there's no choice to live in the state of nature. In the original, of course, there is no actual choice, it's just a rhetorical device to justify monarchy. The argument is 'obviously you'd choose this because this is better than chaos, which is the alternative' not 'you have chosen to accept this restriction, legitimating it'. This has the advantage of actually making sense. You can use a social contract as a metaphor to justify society based on necessity, but not based on consent. The trick is, of course, that it seems as though it does both, even though the latter is utterly senseless. That's where the rhetorical power comes from.

This is one of the worst written pseudo-intellectual paragraphs I've ever tried to parse and I've read stuff by Gbaji, Alma and Shadowrelm.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#259 Nov 17 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
One does not decide to be born into a society; one may, if they have the means (big if), decide to leave it, but there's no choice to live in the state of nature. In the original, of course, there is no actual choice, it's just a rhetorical device to justify monarchy. The argument is 'obviously you'd choose this because this is better than chaos, which is the alternative' not 'you have chosen to accept this restriction, legitimating it'. This has the advantage of actually making sense. You can use a social contract as a metaphor to justify society based on necessity, but not based on consent. The trick is, of course, that it seems as though it does both, even though the latter is utterly senseless. That's where the rhetorical power comes from.

This is one of the worst written pseudo-intellectual paragraphs I've ever tried to parse and I've read stuff by Gbaji, Alma and Shadowrelm.


I refuse to be outdone...

You don't deserve to be born into society, society is born unto you. See, if (and only if), society has given you the choice to live, then you may live and/or leave society. Of course, that choice is prudent among rhetorical and chaotic men to justify their restrictions, only to legitimize it. The advantage of actually somewhat making logical sense to the man born into society is that it is similar to a contractual metaphor to justify the necessity of society, but not at the decision made by opinion. The solution is, most obviously, is that it appears to be a conglomerate of both, even though the either is not of any need. This, my friend, is where the rhetorical power comes from.
#260 Nov 17 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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...and Monxdot. I've read stuff by Monxdot.


!_!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#261 Nov 17 2013 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is one of the worst written pseudo-intellectual paragraphs I've ever tried to parse and I've read stuff by Gbaji, Alma and Shadowrelm.


Wow, I'm getting a lot of ******* feedback recently, aren't I?

Participation in society isn't a choice. Therefore, choice doesn't justify society, either in general or in any particular case. That's not the argument that Hobbes makes. Other people might (and have) hijack social contract theory to make that argument, but it doesn't actually make sense because participation in society isn't a choice. Misusing the language of contract and choice (with ref. to a hypothetical scenario) is a rhetorical tool to make arguments from necessity seem more persuasive. That is the essence of social contract theory.
#262 Nov 17 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
Wow, I'm getting a lot of @#%^ing feedback recently, aren't I?

We'd all like to see you better yourself.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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