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#27 Nov 01 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I disagree that we're talking about poison though. That suggests something which is always "bad" if present in sufficient quantity.
Yes. Everything can always have negative effects if it's quantity is out of balance - too much or too little.


Sure. But we don't call everything "poison".

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Are you willing to say that there is no point at which the gap between wealth, independently of the income scale will be 'ok' or not produce any adverse effects?


"Any" adverse effects? That's also an unfair requirement (too broad by far). Overall effect on the economy and on economic outcomes for the population as a whole? I will absolutely state that not only is there no point at which the income gap alone can be said to produce those negative effects, but will also argue that statistically the correlation is reversed and that the economic outcomes for the population as a whole tend to be directly proportional to the income gap itself. In other words, a larger income gap tends to reflect a more healthy economy, greater economic opportunity for a larger percentage of the population, higher standard of living overall, faster technological growth, and a host of things that I would not only not label as "poison", but would argue are incredibly positive things we should be striving for.


As I have argued many times on this forum, what we're really measuring with that gap is the slope of our economic line. Graph earnings by percentile in order from lowest to highest, and the slope of the line is steepest where the "gap" is greatest. But that slope also represents upward mobility. It literally measures how much you gain when you move forward within the economy. And since the slope is scaled based on percentiles of the population it accounts for difficulty to make that move. Put another way, the amount of positive economic gain for every single individual within an economy is increased if the slope of that line is steeper.

That's a good thing, all the way around. There are other things we can argue are "good" or "bad", but saying that the gap makes an economy "bad" is not just wrong, it's completely backwards. The larger the gap the better off the people in the economy are. I know that sounds wrong because you've been taught to view that gap negatively your entire life, but if you actually step back and think about what that gap really measures and how it affects you and everyone else in the economy, you'll realize that what you've assumed about it is wrong. The gap measures ease of economic advancement within a given economy. That's it. Everything else remaining the same, a larger gap is good, not bad.

Edited, Nov 1st 2013 2:48pm by gbaji
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#28 Nov 01 2013 at 3:46 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Is it though? Is that too much inequality? How are you measuring it? You say the "economy is unhealthy", but is there some objective, non circular (meaning something other than just the income inequality) method you're using to decide that the economy is both unhealthy *and* the cause is too much income inequality?
You can measure it in abundant ways. Production, health, even simple population data. But clearly when the accumulation of money becomes a tool for power rather than simply a means of currency it needs to be checked.


But that's a completely different criteria. You said that too much income inequality was bad for the economy. You said nothing about how the money was used. I'm specifically questioning the assumption that when income inequality is high, that this is bad.

If you can't argue that this is true, then you can't simply point at a high income inequality and declare that this is "bad". Now if you want to use some other criteria, then that's a whole different argument. My issue is with people simply pointing to a high income inequality and saying we need to fix that.

Edited, Nov 1st 2013 2:46pm by gbaji
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#29 Nov 01 2013 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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So, in that case, how does one keep someone with a large amount of money from misusing it?
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#30 Nov 01 2013 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Is it though? Is that too much inequality? How are you measuring it? You say the "economy is unhealthy", but is there some objective, non circular (meaning something other than just the income inequality) method you're using to decide that the economy is both unhealthy *and* the cause is too much income inequality?
You can measure it in abundant ways. Production, health, even simple population data. But clearly when the accumulation of money becomes a tool for power rather than simply a means of currency it needs to be checked.


But that's a completely different criteria. You said that too much income inequality was bad for the economy. You said nothing about how the money was used. I'm specifically questioning the assumption that when income inequality is high, that this is bad.

If you can't argue that this is true, then you can't simply point at a high income inequality and declare that this is "bad". Now if you want to use some other criteria, then that's a whole different argument. My issue is with people simply pointing to a high income inequality and saying we need to fix that.

Edited, Nov 1st 2013 2:46pm by gbaji

You skipped my question, Mister.
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#31 Nov 01 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Is it though? Is that too much inequality? How are you measuring it? You say the "economy is unhealthy", but is there some objective, non circular (meaning something other than just the income inequality) method you're using to decide that the economy is both unhealthy *and* the cause is too much income inequality?
You can measure it in abundant ways. Production, health, even simple population data. But clearly when the accumulation of money becomes a tool for power rather than simply a means of currency it needs to be checked.


But that's a completely different criteria. You said that too much income inequality was bad for the economy. You said nothing about how the money was used. I'm specifically questioning the assumption that when income inequality is high, that this is bad.

If you can't argue that this is true, then you can't simply point at a high income inequality and declare that this is "bad". Now if you want to use some other criteria, then that's a whole different argument. My issue is with people simply pointing to a high income inequality and saying we need to fix that.

Edited, Nov 1st 2013 2:46pm by gbaji

You skipped my question, Mister.


You didn't ask a question in the post you quoted.

You did ask a question in the other one, to which I provided a several paragraph long answer.
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#32 Nov 01 2013 at 6:33 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
So, in that case, how does one keep someone with a large amount of money from misusing it?


Start with a definition of "misusing" that is not synonymous with "having". Then punish those who actually misuse their money/power/whatever. Right now, the criteria seems to be "punish anyone with money". Which is stupid as **** unless you are actually assuming that merely having it is "bad". Which gets us right back to me asking people why they think this is true.
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#33 Nov 01 2013 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
So, in that case, how does one keep someone with a large amount of money from misusing it?


Start with a definition of "misusing" that is not synonymous with "having". Then punish those who actually misuse their money/power/whatever. Right now, the criteria seems to be "punish anyone with money". Which is stupid as **** unless you are actually assuming that merely having it is "bad". Which gets us right back to me asking people why they think this is true.
I agree, it's stupid to punish people merely because they're successful, and what is "bad" is really important to have defined. The danger is with my previous post, that a minority can have undue sway on the political process. If a minority gets too much influence in defining what it means to misuse your power it's difficult if not impossible to enforce the will of the majority.
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#34 Nov 02 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
So, in that case, how does one keep someone with a large amount of money from misusing it?


Start with a definition of "misusing" that is not synonymous with "having". Then punish those who actually misuse their money/power/whatever. Right now, the criteria seems to be "punish anyone with money". Which is stupid as **** unless you are actually assuming that merely having it is "bad". Which gets us right back to me asking people why they think this is true.
I agree, it's stupid to punish people merely because they're successful, and what is "bad" is really important to have defined. The danger is with my previous post, that a minority can have undue sway on the political process. If a minority gets too much influence in defining what it means to misuse your power it's difficult if not impossible to enforce the will of the majority.


Like shutting down the government because you want to stamp your feet over something that was already passed into law?
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#35 Nov 03 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think breaking down inequality by counties is a particularly useful analysis. County governments don't have the political power to really affect income or capital gains taxes. There's no barrier to crossing them for employment. It's not like each county is its own congressional district or school district.

In fact, even though inequality its bad on its face, it's good to have it in a given geographical area because that means that people of different incomes are living in proximity, rather than being segregated. That's good for a tax base (especially if the rich and poor live in the same city and share school funding) as well as being generally good for community & social health.
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#36 Nov 03 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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trickybeck wrote:
In fact, even though inequality its bad on its face, it's good to have it in a given geographical area because that means that people of different incomes are living in proximity, rather than being segregated.

Oh they're still fairly segregated. 6 miles separates one of the top ranked open enrollment schools in Texas from one of the bottom rank.
#37 Nov 03 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
trickybeck wrote:
In fact, even though inequality its bad on its face, it's good to have it in a given geographical area because that means that people of different incomes are living in proximity, rather than being segregated.

Oh they're still fairly segregated. 6 miles separates one of the top ranked open enrollment schools in Texas from one of the bottom rank.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. Chicago area has the same problem. Just proposing a sort of theoretical ideal.

I was more trying to point out that county divisions don't matter that much. And that the opposite situation of having all millionaires in one county and all impoverished in another would result in perfect income equality, yet would be an even worse situation (or at least no better).


Edited, Nov 3rd 2013 4:37pm by trickybeck
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#38 Nov 03 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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There was a time when the very rich and the very poor lived side by side. But noooo, we just had to end slavery.
#39 Nov 03 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
There was a time when the very rich and the very poor lived side by side. But noooo, we just had to end slavery.


If they didn't white people would have no culture from which to steal.
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#40 Nov 04 2013 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
Allegory wrote:
There was a time when the very rich and the very poor lived side by side. But noooo, we just had to end slavery.


If they didn't white people would have no culture from which to steal all turned into light brown people.

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#41 Nov 04 2013 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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What we have instead is like a form of indentured servitude, in which the minimum wage earners make up a subclass to support the richbies that live in the same town.

I kind of felt that way this weekend when I paid someone else $60 to wax my car. Smiley: frown How many nice cars has that guy at the car wash waxed? Versus how many crummy cars? Okay my 1997 Honda Accord isn't exactly a nice car, it's just been fairly well kept up.
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#42 Nov 04 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I paid someone else $60...1997 Honda Accord

Wait, what? What? 1/20th of yours car value to clean it? How stupid are you? "I just paid someone $50,000 to wash my house, Jim! Splendid decision, Wendy!" What are you doing? Stop ******* money away, you savage.

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#43 Nov 04 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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It had a new coat of paint on it. It had to be waxed.

Someone had a gorgeous lemon yellow Corvette getting done just after me.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#44 Nov 04 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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It had a new coat of paint on it.

Well that makes more sense. If I'd just paid to have a $1500 car painted, I'd want to make sure to spring for the "good" cleaning service. Have you considered just having it bronzed?
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#45 Nov 04 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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If it makes it to year 30, it might have earned it at that point. Smiley: laugh
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#46 Nov 04 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Edited, Nov 4th 2013 3:56pm by rdmcandie
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#47 Nov 04 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I paid someone else $60...1997 Honda Accord

Wait, what? What? 1/20th of yours car value to clean it? How stupid are you? "I just paid someone $50,000 to wash my house, Jim! Splendid decision, Wendy!" What are you doing? Stop ******* money away, you savage.



Ya and one day that Honda, could be a Lexus!.
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#48 Nov 04 2013 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
I paid someone else $60...1997 Honda Accord

Wait, what? What? 1/20th of yours car value to clean it? How stupid are you? "I just paid someone $50,000 to wash my house, Jim! Splendid decision, Wendy!" What are you doing? Stop ******* money away, you savage.


Ya and one day that Honda, could be a Lexus!.


If my used Honda miraculously transmutes into a used Lexus, that sh*t deserves to be plated in gold and worshiped by someone.

Edited, Nov 4th 2013 5:17pm by Catwho
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#49 Nov 04 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
I paid someone else $60...1997 Honda Accord

Wait, what? What? 1/20th of yours car value to clean it? How stupid are you? "I just paid someone $50,000 to wash my house, Jim! Splendid decision, Wendy!" What are you doing? Stop ******* money away, you savage.


Ya and one day that Honda, could be a Lexus!.


If my used Honda miraculously transmutes into a used Lexus, that sh*t deserves to be plated in gold and worshiped by someone.

Edited, Nov 4th 2013 5:17pm by Catwho


If you don't gold plate it You could afford a new lexus!

Edited, Nov 4th 2013 5:25pm by rdmcandie
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#50 Nov 04 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Catwho wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
I paid someone else $60...1997 Honda Accord
Wait, what? What? 1/20th of yours car value to clean it? How stupid are you? "I just paid someone $50,000 to wash my house, Jim! Splendid decision, Wendy!" What are you doing? Stop ******* money away, you savage.

Ya and one day that Honda, could be a Lexus!.

If my used Honda miraculously transmutes into a used Lexus, that sh*t deserves to be plated in gold and worshiped by someone.

If you don't gold plate it You could afford a new lexus!

Alright, but it won't be a convertible.
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#51 Nov 04 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
So, in that case, how does one keep someone with a large amount of money from misusing it?


Start with a definition of "misusing" that is not synonymous with "having". Then punish those who actually misuse their money/power/whatever. Right now, the criteria seems to be "punish anyone with money". Which is stupid as **** unless you are actually assuming that merely having it is "bad". Which gets us right back to me asking people why they think this is true.
I agree, it's stupid to punish people merely because they're successful, and what is "bad" is really important to have defined. The danger is with my previous post, that a minority can have undue sway on the political process. If a minority gets too much influence in defining what it means to misuse your power it's difficult if not impossible to enforce the will of the majority.


Ok. But what does this have to do with income gaps?
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