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#52 Nov 04 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
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So, in that case, how does one keep someone with a large amount of money from misusing it?


Start with a definition of "misusing" that is not synonymous with "having". Then punish those who actually misuse their money/power/whatever. Right now, the criteria seems to be "punish anyone with money". Which is stupid as hell unless you are actually assuming that merely having it is "bad". Which gets us right back to me asking people why they think this is true.
I agree, it's stupid to punish people merely because they're successful, and what is "bad" is really important to have defined. The danger is with my previous post, that a minority can have undue sway on the political process. If a minority gets too much influence in defining what it means to misuse your power it's difficult if not impossible to enforce the will of the majority.


Ok. But what does this have to do with income gaps?
That difference in wealth equality is a difference in political equality.
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#53 Nov 05 2013 at 7:40 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
That difference in wealth equality is a difference in political equality.


Except that it's not. At least not directly. A difference in wealth equates to a difference in message volume. A rich person has a louder "voice" within society than a poor person. And yes, this means that a rich person can influence political outcomes more than a poor person. But I see two issues with that:

1. Not all rich people agree on everything. So the fear that the 1% will all just control everything is really a phantom fear. That 1% will have greater influence, but will spend most of that fighting amongst eachother.

2. This isn't really different than every other political system ever tried in the history of man. Find me a system where the "rich" don't have greater influence and power than the "poor". There isn't one. So the question isn't about whether they have more influence, but whether they have greater influence than other alternative methods, or whether the negatives of that influence imbalance could be lessened via some other changes.


I'd rather live in a system where a small number of wealthy individuals have an significant amount of influence over our government than one in which things are the other way around. And honestly, if we're to pick a method by which influence and power is gained, I'd much rather it be "guys who are successful at business" than "guys who are successful at government". But that's just me.
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#54 Nov 05 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
stuff.
Which is fine, and I don't think you'd have many disagreeing with you, on some level at least (or at least I won't). It's more an order of magnitude. How many middle-class people does it take to out-shout a rich man in politics? As inequality increases that amount becomes greater, when it gets too great you have problems. If something negatively affects the majority to the benefit of the minority, but the minority's voice in politics is greater, you create instability or you end up with a situation where you have patronizing politics where a minority can simply "buy votes" which isn't necessarily much better.
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#55 Nov 05 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
I'd rather live in a system where a small number of wealthy individuals have an significant amount of influence over our government than one in which things are the other way around. .
That's called an oligarchy.

Nice to have confirmation that you hate the American government, though.Smiley: thumbsup
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#56 Nov 05 2013 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
stuff.
Which is fine, and I don't think you'd have many disagreeing with you, on some level at least (or at least I won't). It's more an order of magnitude. How many middle-class people does it take to out-shout a rich man in politics? As inequality increases that amount becomes greater, when it gets too great you have problems. If something negatively affects the majority to the benefit of the minority, but the minority's voice in politics is greater, you create instability or you end up with a situation where you have patronizing politics where a minority can simply "buy votes" which isn't necessarily much better.


This effect is somewhat self correcting in a democracy though, isn't it? Increasingly so the more wealth is concentrated. The more the wealth is focused in a smaller number of hands, the fewer actual votes those hands have and the more they have to spend to try to influence an increasingly massive majority. I don't think that private wealth is a problem in this regard.

I'm far more concerned about public power and influence allowing a minority to control the majority. And this is far more likely to happen as a result of using government power to "correct" for wealth inequalities by taxing a minority of wealthy people and spreading that money around to the remaining majority (using the money of the rich to buy the votes from everyone else). The wealthy can choose to spend their own money influencing people's opinions (and thus potentially their votes). But that's their choice, and the degree to which they can do this is somewhat balanced by their relative wealth versus base popularity of what they want to do. But when the government can seize their money and use it to buy votes, then you've created a power structure that can much more easily be abused.
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#57 Nov 05 2013 at 8:55 PM Rating: Default
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'd rather live in a system where a small number of wealthy individuals have an significant amount of influence over our government than one in which things are the other way around. .
That's called an oligarchy.


I said "significant influence", not "total control". At least try to follow the context of the discussion.
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#58 Nov 05 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
This effect is somewhat self correcting in a democracy though, isn't it? Increasingly so the more wealth is concentrated. The more the wealth is focused in a smaller number of hands, the fewer actual votes those hands have and the more they have to spend to try to influence an increasingly massive majority.
Yes but only if the amount needed to buy the votes is greater than the profit from doing so. So if, for example, you bribe both parties and create overwhelming support for a tax loophole that saves you 10x what you spent you still come out ahead, even if the public eventually catches on.

Edited, Nov 5th 2013 7:03pm by someproteinguy
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#59 Nov 05 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'd rather live in a system where a small number of wealthy individuals have an significant amount of influence over our government than one in which things are the other way around. .
That's called an oligarchy.


I said "significant influence", not "total control". At least try to follow the context of the discussion.


So...if the control isn't 100% it's not an oligarchy? Interesting.

Oligarchy 1] is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people
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#60 Nov 05 2013 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'd rather live in a system where a small number of wealthy individuals have an significant amount of influence over our government than one in which things are the other way around. .
That's called an oligarchy.


I said "significant influence", not "total control". At least try to follow the context of the discussion.


You do know that in democracy you only need significant influence right not total control. A majority vote isn't 100% just a significant portion of the vote.
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#61 Nov 05 2013 at 10:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hondas have awesome resale values. We had to sell our 2 cars before moving from Hawaii, and I was expecting to be happy getting $1500 for our 2004 Honda Civic. We got $3500 for that car. I almost sh*t my pants. They had it parked out front before we left with a sticker that said $7900.
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#62 Nov 05 2013 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
Hondas have awesome resale values. We had to sell our 2 cars before moving from Hawaii, and I was expecting to be happy getting $1500 for our 2004 Honda Civic. We got $3500 for that car. I almost sh*t my pants. They had it parked out front before we left with a sticker that said $7900.


Fast and Furious increased market value.
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#63 Nov 06 2013 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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The only way to kill a Honda is to 1. Get in a serious accident or 2. Neglect it horribly.

My last oil change came with a caveat: The muffler is rotting. It'll probably die sometime in the next six months. Naw, you don't need a pre-emptive replacement for it. Just bring it back in when it starts sounding like a John Deere tractor.

That'll be the first major repair I did on it since a hose burst three years ago.
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#64 Nov 06 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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3. Let the body rust away to nothing.
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#65 Nov 06 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
3. Let the body rust away to nothing.


That falls under "neglect it horribly" I think.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#66 Nov 06 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Unless you're into ratrods.
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#67 Nov 06 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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No, not with a Honda it doesn't. That's not neglect, its not replacing the body when it starts going, because it will start going. Honda makes excellent engines, but terrible bodies.
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#68 Nov 06 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
No, not with a Honda it doesn't. That's not neglect, its not replacing the body when it starts going, because it will start going. Honda makes excellent engines, but terrible bodies.


Mine has held up well. The clear coat started clouding up over the summer so I got it repainted. They didn't have to do any body work besides that (and replacing the plastic cover of one headlight that was cracked.)
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#69 Nov 06 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Never had a problem with the Civic's body. But we only had it for about ten years. Maybe it takes longer than that?

Oh, another reason that car got us so much was that in 10 years, we only put 80k miles on it.
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#70 Nov 06 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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I think the half life is probably about 15 years. Half of them will have had a body problem of some sort, e.g. rusting, dying paint, bumper falling off for no reason, etc. The rest of them go sometime after those fifteen years. So ten years of good condition is probably not abnormal.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#71 Nov 06 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe it's just a thing in places where we use road salt.
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#72 Nov 06 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Maybe it's just a thing in places where we use road salt.


Yeah in the south we don't have to put up with that problem but if you live close to the beach or are one of the people that think driving your car on the beach is some how fun you would have to worry about it.
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#73 Nov 06 2013 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Maybe it's just a thing in places where we use road salt.


Fun fact: Most cities in Georgia north of I-20, which kind of splits the northern part of the state from the middle and southern areas, keep enough road salt on hand for exactly one major snow storm each year. If there is more than one storm in any given season, we're screwed. There is also exactly one snow plow in the entire city of Atlanta and like four total in the entire state owned by GDOT.

Edited, Nov 6th 2013 3:25pm by Catwho
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#74 Nov 06 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The City of Chicago has 280 full size plows, 30 small plows (4x4 pickups) for narrow streets & alleys and quick-hitches to convert another 200 garbage trucks into snow plows in case they need it.

Ever since Mayor Bilandic fumbled the city response to the major snow storm of 1979 and was voted out of office for it, the city's apparently been paranoid about being unprepared for the white stuff.
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#75 Nov 06 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Do you guys have high speed plows that keep streets clear during blizzards?
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#76 Nov 06 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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They plow during storms although I don't know how "high speed" they are. These make up the 280 truck main force. Six wheelers with plows.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#77 Nov 06 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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#78 Nov 06 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
The City of Chicago has 280 full size plows, 30 small plows (4x4 pickups) for narrow streets & alleys and quick-hitches to convert another 200 garbage trucks into snow plows in case they need it.

Ever since Mayor Bilandic fumbled the city response to the major snow storm of 1979 and was voted out of office for it, the city's apparently been paranoid about being unprepared for the white stuff.


Canadian mayors are always prepared for the white stuff.
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#79 Nov 06 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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I've expressed concern to my boss about going to Montana in December since I'm from Georgia and have the instinct to burrow indoors at the first snowflake. She has agreed and will still be sending me to Montana, but suggested a hotel within walking distance of the office.

I'm not sure that's going to be any better. Smiley: frown
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#80 Nov 06 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
We just play pinball.



2 friction-less bodies are moving along a plane...
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#81 Nov 06 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I've expressed concern to my boss about going to Montana in December since I'm from Georgia and have the instinct to burrow indoors at the first snowflake.
It's been my experience that a Southerner's instinct at the sight of a snowflake is to crash their trucks into something.
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#82 Nov 06 2013 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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#83 Nov 07 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I've expressed concern to my boss about going to Montana in December since I'm from Georgia and have the instinct to burrow indoors at the first snowflake.
It's been my experience that a Southerner's instinct at the sight of a snowflake is to crash their trucks into something.

The crashing occurs because they are trying to burrow their heads into the steering wheel and it doesn't work.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#84 Nov 07 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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Get a good pair of pack boots and enjoy the snow. As long as you're not trying to drive a vehicle from one spot to another snowstorms are total fun.
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#85 Nov 07 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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My county is somewhere in the middle-lands it appears. Everyone wants to work at Harris and make a decent living. For everyone else, you can work retail and make $8.00 per hour, or work fast food and make $8.00 per hour, or work in the assembly plant across the street from Harris and make $8 per hour. OR! You can get a job at any number of the dozens of call centers in the area and make $8 per hour! If you're really lucky, you can get a job with the Pepsi distribution center and make like $9 per hour.

All of these "entry level" positions enable you to work your way up over a span of about 20-30 years, where you might someday make as much as a whopping $13 per hour. Some real opportunity going on here if you live from your car and can get away with not paying insurance on it.

Oh, and when did Belkira move to Florida? Smiley: tongue
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#86 Nov 07 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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Kuwoobie wrote:
Oh, and when did Belkira move to Florida? Smiley: tongue


October 4th. :) Howdy, neighbor.
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#87 Nov 07 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
Kuwoobie wrote:
Oh, and when did Belkira move to Florida? Smiley: tongue


October 4th. :) Howdy, neighbor.


Just curious, but what part? We are on the space coast aka Brevard County.
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#88 Nov 07 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Kuwoobie wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Kuwoobie wrote:
Oh, and when did Belkira move to Florida? Smiley: tongue


October 4th. :) Howdy, neighbor.


Just curious, but what part? We are on the space coast aka Brevard County.


Volusia County. So we really ARE neighbors.
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#89 Nov 07 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
Kuwoobie wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Kuwoobie wrote:
Oh, and when did Belkira move to Florida? Smiley: tongue


October 4th. :) Howdy, neighbor.


Just curious, but what part? We are on the space coast aka Brevard County.


Volusia County. So we really ARE neighbors.


Wow! We sure are. What in the wide world of sports possessed you to move to such an awful place? Don't you know that the people here rape dogs and cats and horses-- like all the time? I think there is something beneath the earth here, but not too far. It won't be long before you hear its whispers.
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#90 Nov 07 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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It won't be long before you hear its whispers.
Sorry, thought I buried them deeper.
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#91 Nov 07 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Kuwoobie wrote:
I think there is something beneath the earth here, but not too far. It won't be long before you hear its whispers.

I thought FL's subsurface issues were due to nothing beneath the earth - giant holes that open up and suck you down into the deep, dark squishy places from which no human has ever returned.
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#92 Nov 07 2013 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kuwoobie wrote:
My county is somewhere in the middle-lands it appears. Everyone wants to work at Harris and make a decent living. For everyone else, you can work retail and make $8.00 per hour, or work fast food and make $8.00 per hour, or work in the assembly plant across the street from Harris and make $8 per hour. OR! You can get a job at any number of the dozens of call centers in the area and make $8 per hour! If you're really lucky, you can get a job with the Pepsi distribution center and make like $9 per hour.
But but but... income equality! Smiley: nod
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#93 Nov 07 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Kuwoobie wrote:
Wow! We sure are. What in the wide world of sports possessed you to move to such an awful place? Don't you know that the people here rape dogs and cats and horses-- like all the time? I think there is something beneath the earth here, but not too far. It won't be long before you hear its whispers.


Husband got a job here, I missed my family and we couldn't afford the airfare to go home and visit. Win, win.

And I get to be an unemployed bum for the first few months as I finished up school, await my final grade, and look for a job.
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#94 Nov 09 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I've expressed concern to my boss about going to Montana in December since I'm from Georgia and have the instinct to burrow indoors at the first snowflake.
It's been my experience that a Southerner's instinct at the sight of a snowflake is to crash their trucks into something.

It's because they're on their way to the grocery store to stock up.
#95 Nov 09 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
stuff.
Which is fine, and I don't think you'd have many disagreeing with you, on some level at least (or at least I won't). It's more an order of magnitude. How many middle-class people does it take to out-shout a rich man in politics? As inequality increases that amount becomes greater, when it gets too great you have problems. If something negatively affects the majority to the benefit of the minority, but the minority's voice in politics is greater, you create instability or you end up with a situation where you have patronizing politics where a minority can simply "buy votes" which isn't necessarily much better.


This effect is somewhat self correcting in a democracy though, isn't it? Increasingly so the more wealth is concentrated. The more the wealth is focused in a smaller number of hands, the fewer actual votes those hands have and the more they have to spend to try to influence an increasingly massive majority. I don't think that private wealth is a problem in this regard.

I'm far more concerned about public power and influence allowing a minority to control the majority. And this is far more likely to happen as a result of using government power to "correct" for wealth inequalities by taxing a minority of wealthy people and spreading that money around to the remaining majority (using the money of the rich to buy the votes from everyone else). The wealthy can choose to spend their own money influencing people's opinions (and thus potentially their votes). But that's their choice, and the degree to which they can do this is somewhat balanced by their relative wealth versus base popularity of what they want to do. But when the government can seize their money and use it to buy votes, then you've created a power structure that can much more easily be abused.


Sigh, when democracy becomes an oligarchy, it slowly stops being self-correcting. I am adding this link just in case you still want to argue it is not an oligarchy.
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#96 Nov 12 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Citigroup writes legislation too.

A bill to repeal a portion of the Frank-Dodd Act....
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...70 of the 85 lines in the final House bill reflected Citigroup's recommendations. In fact, as The Times reports, two paragraphs were copied almost word for word — except lawmakers had changed two words to make them plural.
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#97 Nov 12 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because.

You can write the bill or you can get drunk, but the pay is exactly the same. Smiley: rolleyes


Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:55am by someproteinguy
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