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"We're not going to be disrespected"Follow

#1 Oct 04 2013 at 4:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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And there it is, the budget dispute in plain English.

"We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."

Somehow his words bring this to mind.Guard your bunnies, people. The teapots are not gonna be ignored.

Oh, Boehner. You need a few hundred ball gags. And some aspirin. And these matches. - The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control, and the paddle ball... And this lamp.
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#2 Oct 04 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
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While Obama is the king of caving, it seems like the Very Serious old white guys he blindly listens to have come to the conclusion that there's nothing to be gained by making concessions this time. It'll be interesting to see if he can resist his desire to be the reasonable one again. Jbone has been leaking out that he's likely to bring a combination "clean" CR and debt ceiling solution to the floor, and people I know who are closer to the situation than me seem to think that's fairly likely the resolution. Obviously if he can win some sort of face saving concession from the white house that would help, but it probably goes that way regardless. General opinion seems to be that he's pantomimed party loyalty enough to not really be at threat of losing his leadership position in '14 over this. Life is uncertain, though. I don't have a good handle on what Jim DeMint wants, and that obviously matters a fair amount.
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#3 Oct 04 2013 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Smiley: lol
The negro smarty-pants pres says....
Obama wrote:
Think about that. You have already gotten the opportunity to serve the American people. There's no higher honor than that. So the American people aren't in the mood to give you a goodie bag to go with it.


Not very politic. Sounds like Barack is done being polite with the turdheads.
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#4 Oct 04 2013 at 7:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
The teapots are not gonna be ignored.

Oh, Samira... you SO overestimate the power of the Tea Party! Why someone told me so the other day just on this very forum!

Ignore the fact that this whole shutdown started with a few Tea Party loyalists coming up with a plan the establishment GOP called an unworkable fringe idea. Ignore how the Heritage Foundation championed it and helped get it rolling. Forget how, even now, everyone from both sides agrees that the primary thing stopping Boehner from passing the clean CR on his desk is fear of the Tea Party extremist wing. The thing to remember is that the Tea Party doesn't really control anything in the Republican Party.

Smasharoo wrote:
While Obama is the king of caving, it seems like the Very Serious old white guys he blindly listens to have come to the conclusion that there's nothing to be gained by making concessions this time.

You can tell how well the GOP is "winning" by how happy they are with Cruz for bringing them into it.
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#5 Oct 04 2013 at 7:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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#6 Oct 04 2013 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I composed a short poem about the situation:

Once there was a president, a straight up murderous G,
Bonafides like Bonaparte's, he'll leave you holier than See.
Now this cat passes a budget, seems healthcare can be
'til the GOP throws a protest party and gets it down to a T.

Now the government's shut down, what's a guy to do?
Angry veterans mill around, smelling of poo.
You ain't in Iraq, don't try throwing a shoe
There's only one thing a player hater can do.

Burn down the Whitehouse, they did it before,
Prank call Obama and call him a *****.
Find Boehner and castrate him with a door
Leave him screaming filibusters on the House floor.

If anyone needs me, I'll be waiting for my laureate nomination.
#7 Oct 04 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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That sort of works to the tune of The Beverly Hillbillies if you play with adding or dropping a word here and there ("...they did it [once] before")
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#8 Oct 04 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Somehow his words bring this to mind.Guard your bunnies, people. The teapots are not gonna be ignored.
I don't see how they could be, so loud and angry all the time. I'm not sure we could tune that out if we tried.

And I'm not sure I'd take a group hug from a politician; good way to catch cooties, or find a knife in your back.
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#9 Oct 04 2013 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
That sort of works to the tune of The Beverly Hillbillies if you play with adding or dropping a word here and there ("...they did it [once] before")
Well that certainly made my day slightly better. Smiley: laugh
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#10 Oct 05 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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GOP has no idea what it actually wants out of this except to be less embarrassed. A lot of people recognize that they're not going to stop the ACA but have no idea how to end this without looking stupid.
Rep. Dennis Ross (R-FL) via NYT wrote:
“Republicans have to realize how many significant gains we’ve made over the last three years — and we have, not only in cutting spending but in really turning the tide on other things,” Mr. Ross said. “We can’t lose all that when there’s no connection now between the shutdown and the funding of Obamacare.”

“I think now it’s a lot about pride,” he said.

Who needs good governance when you have warm fuzzies and pride instead and you'll shut down the government until you have them?
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#11 Oct 05 2013 at 10:57 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
.


So, we have a Republican who is willing to man up and face reality and CNN spends their efforts trying to make him look like one of "them". That's what I got out of it.
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#12 Oct 05 2013 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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He's a much better tactician than Cruz, sure, but still a maniac willing to play the game of brinkmanship. He states they should have run this technique during the debt ceiling debate. Negotiation failure there would be significantly more disastrous for our nation.
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#13 Oct 05 2013 at 11:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't see Jake Tapper as unfair to him and Tapper ain't much of a liberal. But when you admit the disastrous Tea Party origins of this crisis and then say you support Boehner's decision to keep it going out of party unity, you pretty much are one of "them".
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#14 Oct 06 2013 at 2:14 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
I didn't see Jake Tapper as unfair to him and Tapper ain't much of a liberal. But when you admit the disastrous Tea Party origins of this crisis and then say you support Boehner's decision to keep it going out of party unity, you pretty much are one of "them".


I can see that point of view, but unless I have mistaken his argument (which maybe flawed) is that there's a process, and when you decide to bypass the process and take matters in your own hands, then you're doing exactly what Ted Cruz did. If I'm not mistaken, the "process" is to simply have the bill up for vote. His part is to voice his concern, which he did behind closed doors. He's only publicly speaking about it because it was leaked. If he breaks off, creating his own faction, as opposed to convincing the leader to take another action, you're only creating more divisional chaos.

Then again, he could be full of crap and trying to play both sides. However, I believe the former based off all of the other GOP actions.
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#15 Oct 06 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
The "process" was that a law was passed (Obamacare/ACA), upheld by the Supreme Court, & implemented starting lass Tuesday REGARDLESS of the government shutdown. The shutdown only happened because some uppity pubbies are still /butthurt about it & have little clue how Congress actually works.

If they also allow us to default because of it, they're insane. I predict the "shutdown" stays until zero hour of the debt ceiling increase & they have no choice but to eat their hats or bankrupt the USA. Why take two bullets when you only have to take one, ya know?
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#16 Oct 06 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I can see that point of view, but unless I have mistaken his argument (which maybe flawed) is that there's a process, and when you decide to bypass the process and take matters in your own hands, then you're doing exactly what Ted Cruz did.

Cruz didn't bypass any "process", he just convinced a bunch of Tea Party affiliated Republicans to agree with him and pressure Boehner into doing what they wanted. Nunes, at this point, is essentially saying "I think this shutdown is wrong and damaging and we're in it for the wrong reasons but party unity beats what's best for the country right now".

I think asking him why he thinks that is a perfectly legitimate question.
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#17 Oct 06 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Default
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Lol, let me clarify. The two of you took the opposite meanings of "process".

Omegavegeta wrote:
The "process" was that a law was passed (Obamacare/ACA), upheld by the Supreme Court, & implemented starting lass Tuesday REGARDLESS of the government shutdown. The shutdown only happened because some uppity pubbies are still /butthurt about it & have little clue how Congress actually works.

If they also allow us to default because of it, they're insane. I predict the "shutdown" stays until zero hour of the debt ceiling increase & they have no choice but to eat their hats or bankrupt the USA. Why take two bullets when you only have to take one, ya know?


You are absolutely correct. That wasn't the process that I was referring to. In this instance, if you want the GOP to stop abandon this plan, the proper way would be to convince the leader to let the bill go up for the vote. This is as opposed to rallying a group of people to persuade the leader to do something different. At that point, he is no longer a leader, but a follower.

Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I can see that point of view, but unless I have mistaken his argument (which maybe flawed) is that there's a process, and when you decide to bypass the process and take matters in your own hands, then you're doing exactly what Ted Cruz did.

Cruz didn't bypass any "process", he just convinced a bunch of Tea Party affiliated Republicans to agree with him and pressure Boehner into doing what they wanted. Nunes, at this point, is essentially saying "I think this shutdown is wrong and damaging and we're in it for the wrong reasons but party unity beats what's best for the country right now".

I think asking him why he thinks that is a perfectly legitimate question.

Read above. Don't get me wrong, it's a legitimate question, but he gave a legitimate answer. The problem is, they kept on the subject as if they didn't understand or wanted him to change his position. That's what I didn't like.

Followers don't make decisions, they follow. If a follower has a suggestion, then s/he can voice their concern to the leader. If the leader decides to go against it (which Boehner originally did), then you follow.

Now, I understand what you mean, there is no FORMAL process and at the end of the day, 'twas the GOP who decided to go along with the strategy. However, the point that Nunes is making, is if he rallies up a group of people to follow his strategy, then he can't criticize Cruz for doing the same thing. Furthermore, he would only be dividing the GOP even further. Nunes realizes that in this instance, he is a follower and as a follower, he is giving his opinion. It's the leader's responsibility to voice the message and persuade the people. If you believe that the leader is weak and should be replaced, then you take his spot, else remain tacit.
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#18 Oct 07 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nunes has an interview in the conservative National Review if you're so interested.
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#19 Oct 07 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Left wing has their healthcare, right wing has their "slimmed down" government. Who says the system can't produce something for everybody?

Don't mind the lemmings. Smiley: rolleyes
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#20 Oct 07 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
if you're so interested.
Can't imagine anyone honestly being so.
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#21 Oct 07 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Left wing has their healthcare, right wing has their "slimmed down" government. Who says the system can't produce something for everybody?

Don't mind the lemmings. Smiley: rolleyes


That's all fine and dandy for the nonexistant budget, but right now Wall Street and all affiliated people are staring at the US default think it's going to be the Apocalypse.

Holy smokes, I just realized this is exactly what the right wingers want because they fully expected the End Times ala Left Behind. If God won't bring Armageddon to us, we'll bring (financial) Armageddon to God!

(God also smited the Olympic torch on its way to Russia because he loves *** people.)
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#22 Oct 07 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Holy smokes, I just realized this is exactly what the right wingers want because they fully expected the End Times ala Left Behind. If God won't bring Armageddon to us, we'll bring (financial) Armageddon to God!
Yeah, please don't do that. It's fun watching your political soap from across the ocean but if your government ***** that up it's going to hurt me too and I'd rather not have that.
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#23 Oct 07 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
That's all fine and dandy for the nonexistant budget, but right now Wall Street and all affiliated people are staring at the US default think it's going to be the Apocalypse.
Oh I'm confident they'll find a solution for that part at least. No budget is good for some free airtime for your political rhetoric, default would hurt the money behind the scenes too much to be a valid option at this point.
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#24 Oct 07 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Catwho wrote:
That's all fine and dandy for the nonexistant budget, but right now Wall Street and all affiliated people are staring at the US default think it's going to be the Apocalypse.
Oh I'm confident they'll find a solution for that part at least. No budget is good for some free airtime for your political rhetoric, default would hurt the money behind the scenes too much to be a valid option at this point.


The GOP wont block the debt ceiling increase if/when it comes down to it. As I said in the other thread, the real objective here is to do something to offset out of control spending without any debate, negotiations, or compromise. The ACA is just the most obvious low hanging fruit in said argument. The debt ceiling is not the goal here. But if the only way to get the Dems to even come to the table to discuss spending is when there's some imminent problem that must be solved (like government shutdown or default), then unfortunately that's the only tool the GOP has to get them to do that.

It takes two sides to disagree.
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#25 Oct 07 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
As I said in the other thread, the real objective here is to do something to offset out of control spending without any debate, negotiations, or compromise


False. The real objective is political posturing. Blah blah you're an idiot blah blah.
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#26 Oct 07 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.
One side being utterly ******* ridiculous makes it easy to disagree though.
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#27 Oct 07 2013 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.
One side being utterly @#%^ing ridiculous makes it easy to disagree though.


I agree. The side that says "we'll spend $1T more money than we're taking in every single year for four years and then refuse to meet with the other side to discuss that fact despite that our job requires us to do this" is being pretty ridiculous.
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#28 Oct 07 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.
One side being utterly @#%^ing ridiculous makes it easy to disagree though.


I agree. The side that says "we'll spend $1T more money than we're taking in every single year for four years and then refuse to meet with the other side to discuss that fact despite that our job requires us to do this" is being pretty ridiculous.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with the money already spent. Two separate issues. You can pass a clean CR and address the ACA spending afterwards. Given the fact that the clean CR was never even up for a vote by Congress, I would say is pretty ridiculous.
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#29 Oct 07 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.

But it only takes one person to give the lamest false equivalence argument in the book.

Anyway, the GOP can't even negotiate with itself:
National Review wrote:
House Republican leaders met today at the Capitol, but they made little progress toward solving the fiscal crisis, or calming the GOP’s growing tensions. They remain undecided on the contours of a potential deal, and on how to sell one, especially to the conference’s bloc of skeptical conservatives. “It’s the House of indecision,” says a weary Republican aide familiar with the talks. “We don’t have the votes for a big deal, small deal, or short-term deal.”

Representative Pete Sessions of Texas, chairman of the Rules Committee, tells us Speaker John Boehner doesn’t yet have his debt-ceiling proposal finalized. For now, no legislation is headed toward his committee, and it’s all about messaging. “Negatory,” he replies, when asked whether the GOP’s next move has been set. “We’re going to keep with our great, positive attitude and tell the president, ‘you’ve got to sit down and negotiate.’”

Obviously the Democrats' fault that they're not dealing with the party that doesn't even know what in the fuck it wants.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 5:42pm by Jophiel
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#30 Oct 07 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.
One side being utterly @#%^ing ridiculous makes it easy to disagree though.


I agree. The side that says "we'll spend $1T more money than we're taking in every single year for four years and then refuse to meet with the other side to discuss that fact despite that our job requires us to do this" is being pretty ridiculous.
This message didn't get out nearly enough. The Democrats aren't going to budge on Obamacare, that much was obvious from the beginning, from before the whole thing started. Why it was even brought up initially baffles me somewhat (besides the whole loud nutjobs on the far right saying they'd bring it up thing, but they baffle me too). But Obamacare is a small part of the government. If it's really out of control spending then there should be plenty of other places to suggest cuts. "Fine you can keep Obamacare but we need to do something about this spending..." that sounds a bit more sane, well to me at least.

But maybe there's a reason I'm not in politics... Smiley: rolleyes
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#31 Oct 08 2013 at 3:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But Obamacare is a small part of the government. If it's really out of control spending then there should be plenty of other places to suggest cuts. "Fine you can keep Obamacare but we need to do something about this spending..." that sounds a bit more sane, well to me at least.


Exactly! This isn't about budgeting, but preventing President Obama (to be fair, any Democrat) from creating a legacy. People are fickle and simple minded, they will support whatever is hot at the moment. See President Bush/911/Iraq war.
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#32 Oct 08 2013 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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To an extent it has to be about the ACA because many of these House Republicans swore to their voters that they were going to stop the ACA from socializing America and eating their babies. There really isn't another platform to "win" on. No one will be placated by "Well, Obamacare is still all systems go but, check it out, we got a 2% reduction in NOAA funding."

Rep. Scott Garrett (R-NJ) via National Review wrote:
They may try to throw the kitchen sink at the debt limit, but I don't think our conference will be amenable for settling for a collection of things after we've fought so hard. If it doesn't have a full delay or defund of Obamacare, I know I and many others will not be able to support whatever the leadership proposes. If it's just a repeal of the medical-device tax, or chained CPI, that won't be enough.
(bolding mine)

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 7:55am by Jophiel
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#33 Oct 08 2013 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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It's not about Obamacare, Joph. Why do you keep bringing it up?
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#34 Oct 08 2013 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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If it came down to caving in on the ACA demands of the tea partiers or defaulting on our debt, which would be the worse evil?

If Obama were to concede (he has a habit of it) would Reid even support it?



Edited, Oct 8th 2013 3:24pm by Elinda
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#35 Oct 08 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
If it came down to caving in on the ACA demands of the tea partiers or defaulting on our debt, which would be the worse evil?

The former long term, the latter short term.

Caving on the ACA would:
(a) give the minority party free reign to hold the government hostage to whatever demands they have
(b) create an incentive to only ever pass stopgap increases so the debt ceiling is constantly a factor in order to capitalize on (a)
(c) effectively kill health care reform in the US for a generation.

Quote:
If Obama were to concede (he has a habit of it) would Reid even support it?

Concede to what? Repealing the ACA? Not going to happen.
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#36 Oct 08 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Good news, everyone! The GOP is proposing to create a supercommittee!
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#37 Oct 08 2013 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Good news, everyone! The GOP is proposing to create a supercommittee!
What's that (supposed to) do?
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#38 Oct 08 2013 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Based on the success rate of previous supercommittees, nothing.
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#39 Oct 08 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Heh, ok. And in theory?
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#40 Oct 08 2013 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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They'll figure out exactly what their ransom note should say for returning our government to us. In theory.

They want the ACA to fail so bad, but Obama called their bluff, so now they're stuck trying to figure out what else they can get out of it.

In classic group think fashion, they've decided to form a committee.

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#41 Oct 08 2013 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Heh, ok. And in theory?

At the last major budget impasse, Congress decided on a short term continued spending bill coupled with a "supercommittee". Said committee was called that because it included members from both parties of both chambers of Congress. So both Democratic & GOP House and Senate members. The idea was that they would have until a deadline to come up with a long term plan for spending and debt. If they failed, there would be a "sequester" -- fairly nondiscriminatory cuts across domestic discretionary and military spending. The idea was that the GOP would find the military cuts and the Democrats would find the domestic cuts abhorrent enough to force some sort of resolution. Entitlement spending was left out of the agreement.

Anyway, as you may have heard, the supercommittee failed spectacularly and the sequester cuts went into place instead. Many of the same voices who are cheering the shutdown also helped steer and championed forcing the sequester under the premise that across the board cuts were a great thing.

That alone probably makes this supercommittee idea a nonstarter. If you're dealing with people who are excited to burn the house down, why are you going to enter a good faith agreement with them? All they need to do is torpedo the committee, force another shutdown/default and then they say the blame has to be shared with the Democrats because they were on the committee as well.
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#42 Oct 08 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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So they'll have meetings for a week before coming out and saying they have no idea?
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#43 Oct 08 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I declare reverse-sequester: If this supercommittee fails, we get to raise taxes 25% across the board and declare war on two nations of the GOP's choosing.
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#44 Oct 08 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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No, they'll have meetings for a week, create a ~100-page document full of recommendations that will never pass the senate, but will be billed as a compromise plan and used as political leverage to try to elicit base donations and force concessions during default negotiations. They will attach one of the next RNC candidate's name onto the bill to get exposure. I'm guessing it will be called the notryan plan or something.

The dems will cave and take the least offensive thin edge of the wedge, and we'll be back here next year at about this time. Maybe they will name a bridge or something too.
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#45 Oct 08 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I declare reverse-sequester: If this supercommittee fails, we get to raise taxes 25% across the board and declare war on two nations of the GOP's choosing.


Looks like we'll be annexing Canada and Poland.
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#46 Oct 08 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I declare reverse-sequester: If this supercommittee fails, we get to raise taxes 25% across the board and declare war on two nations of the GOP's choosing.


Looks like we'll be annexing Canada and Poland.
One of those has to be France, because freedom fries.
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#47 Oct 08 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
So they'll have meetings for a week before coming out and saying they have no idea?
No no, they'll make a deal, probably fairly quickly. There'll just be no reason to tell anyone else about it anytime soon. Just stick it in the back pocket until the final hour and then bring it to the floor knowing it'll pass. In the meantime let fear do it's part to help you get your message out. Primetime viewers are win. Smiley: rolleyes
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#48 Oct 08 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lulz...

The Onion reports....
Quote:
20 members of the Republican’s Tea Party faction announced this morning they would be willing to support a clean budget resolution bill in exchange for the president’s firstborn daughter, Malia Obama.
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#49 Oct 08 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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The Pres and the Speaker had a phone call. Obama is making some sort of statement right now. You can watch it at the white house site or on youtube.
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#50 Oct 08 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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So basically they've still gotten nowhere?
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#51 Oct 08 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Obama to Boehner: "Prove it"

- in response to Boehner saying he won't bring the clean CR to the floor because it doesn't have the votes to pass.
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