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ACA vs ObamacareFollow

#1 Oct 02 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Jimmy Kimmel asked peeps which they'd prefer.

To me Obamacare sounds comforting but i suppose the whole 'affordable' think appeals to many.

As you might have guessed many didn't realize that the two were one in the same.

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#2 Oct 02 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't understand this bit. Funny maybe twice. People think my shoe is the new iPhone! People think Africa is a country! We get it. People are uninformed and play along to try and seem informed. Particularly people in LA having a camera pointed at them.
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#3 Oct 02 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
I don't understand this bit.
No one can understand everything.

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#4 Oct 02 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Particularly people in LA having a camera pointed at them.
New York, too.
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#5 Oct 02 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Obamacare sounds pretty sinister to me. Care has been a byword for murder since forever, and to make it worse, Obama's murdered an imperial ****-ton of people.
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#6 Oct 02 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Re-congrats on scholar.

I agree, Obamacare sounds like an evil and horrible thing, which is why the opponents stuck that label on it as soon as they could.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 3:07pm by Catwho
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#7 Oct 02 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Obamacare sounds like a dictator's creed. Which is hilarious given it's a social program.
#8 Oct 02 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like Obamacare better. There are too many ubiquitous 3-letter abbreviations in government stuff already.
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#9 Oct 02 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Jimmy Kimmel asked peeps which they'd prefer.

To me Obamacare sounds comforting but i suppose the whole 'affordable' think appeals to many.

As you might have guessed many didn't realize that the two were one in the same.


To be fair, as Smash pointed out, while most people have heard various terms, they aren't super informed about them. And in this case, the act of asking which one people prefer effectively tells them that they are two different things. So even though I suspect most people think they are the same thing, when asked the question that way, they think "I guess they're different things, or he wouldn't be asking this question". So they answer the question. Only those who are absolutely positive that they're correct that the two are the same thing are going to buck the assumption inherent in the question when they've got a camera pointed at them.

It's a derivation of the complex question fallacy. When you ask a question which itself assumes a given condition, people will tend to answer based on that assumption, even if they normally wouldn't assume it to be true. There's a whole host of reasons why this works.

Also: Editing. It's a comedy skit, right?
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#10 Oct 02 2013 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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To be fair, as Smash pointed out, while most people have heard various terms, they aren't super informed about them.


Which is why the vast majority of people who hate Obamacare can't be taken seriously. Nearly everyone enraged about it is such because they've been told they should be enraged, not because they have any clue what the system is/does.
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#11 Oct 02 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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To be fair, as Smash pointed out, while most people have heard various terms, they aren't super informed about them.


Which is why the vast majority of people who hate Obamacare can't be taken seriously.


They may not, but the issue itself should be. Don't confuse the fact that some percentage of the people don't know all the facts about something with the assumption that this thing isn't important, or even that they're wrong.

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Nearly everyone enraged about it is such because they've been told they should be enraged, not because they have any clue what the system is/does.


I'd argue that the percentage of people who support Obamacare yet have little clue about what the system is/does is roughly equivalent to the percentage of people who oppose it sans-clue. That tells us nothing at all about whether the system is a good one, or a bad one though. Just a commentary on how social issues work. I'm pretty sure that 90% of the American colonists didn't understand anything at all about these things called "rights" that the folks in the constitutional conventions were going on about. But they supported them because it sounded good, or "taxation without representation" and "give me liberty or give me death", and a host of other slogans and rallying cries. Fact is that the masses are rarely inspired to large scale action based on informed decision (I'd suggest that it has never happened in the history of mankind actually), but rather by a good slogan and emotional appeal.


That fact doesn't mean that what their fighting for is good or bad though. The folks who cheered at **** rallies in the 30s were just as sure that what they were doing was "right" as the folks cheering Washington.
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#12 Oct 02 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekkk wrote:
Obamacare sounds pretty sinister to me. Care has been a byword for murder since forever, and to make it worse, Obama's murdered an imperial sh*t-ton of people.


He didn't murder them; he provided Care-Support.
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#13 Oct 02 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Don't confuse the fact that some percentage of the people don't know all the facts about something with the assumption that this thing isn't important, or even that they're wrong.

I can understand why you'd want to champion the causes of people who don't know all the facts.

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The folks who cheered at **** rallies in the 30s were just as sure that what they were doing was "right" as the folks cheering Washington.

True, the people who cheered **** and those shutting down Washington are all about the Right Smiley: grin
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#14 Oct 02 2013 at 9:18 PM Rating: Default
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Smash wrote:
I don't understand this bit. Funny maybe twice. People think my shoe is the new iPhone! People think Africa is a country! We get it. People are uninformed and play along to try and seem informed. Particularly people in LA having a camera pointed at them.


Normally, you would be right, but it's funny in this particular scenario because there's a campaign out there to deceive the people. This is followed by the argument that "most people don't support Obamacare!". This isn't scientific in the least bit, but it's obvious to any sane person that the hatred of Obamacare primarily has to do with Obama/dems and not the law.

Gbaji wrote:
To be fair, as Smash pointed out, while most people have heard various terms, they aren't super informed about them. And in this case, the act of asking which one people prefer effectively tells them that they are two different things. So even though I suspect most people think they are the same thing, when asked the question that way, they think "I guess they're different things, or he wouldn't be asking this question". So they answer the question.


Orrrrrrr, you could not be an idiot and say that "I'm not familiar with x,y or z". That's what I would do, especially if I'm being taped by a late night comedian.

#15 Oct 03 2013 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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The folks who cheered at **** rallies in the 30s were just as sure that what they were doing was "right" as the folks cheering Washington.

Henry Ford and Walt Disney?
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#16 Oct 03 2013 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

I'd argue that the percentage of people who support Obamacare yet have little clue about what the system is/does is roughly equivalent to the percentage of people who oppose it sans-clue.

I'd argue you're probably wrong, but what's new.

I think many that openly support ACA/Obamacares do so because of a specific boon to them. Maybe that have a 'preexisting' condition that has disallowed them from getting insurance previously, or maybe they can keep a kid on their insurance plan longer etc etc.

On the flip side I think the strong opposition is much more political; They were told to oppose it or it's simply been sold as another government hand-out that they'll be paying taxes to support.
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#17 Oct 03 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
To be fair, as Smash pointed out, while most people have heard various terms, they aren't super informed about them.
Hits home, doesn't it?
gbaji wrote:
It's a comedy skit, right?
No, PBS documentary.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2013 9:30am by lolgaxe
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#18 Oct 03 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Freepers are so terrified of ACA being a success that they're trying to crash the servers Smiley: laugh
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#19 Oct 03 2013 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd argue that the percentage of people who support Obamacare yet have little clue about what the system is/does is roughly equivalent to the percentage of people who oppose it sans-clue.

I'd argue that if fully implemented and without actual attempts at making it as difficult as possible to gain benefits, that ACA will be viewed as a jewel of the social safety net and running against it in 2016 would be political suicide.

Actually, everyone on all sides argues this, hence their current actions.
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#20 Oct 03 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I still wish they went single payer as it would probably have met a similar level of obstruction, but you take what you can get.
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#21 Oct 03 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I'd argue that the percentage of people who support Obamacare yet have little clue about what the system is/does is roughly equivalent to the percentage of people who oppose it sans-clue.

I'd argue you're probably wrong, but what's new.


How many people who support Obamacare do so because they think they're going to get "free health care"? Like I said: They don't have a clue about how it really works.

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I think many that openly support ACA/Obamacares do so because of a specific boon to them. Maybe that have a 'preexisting' condition that has disallowed them from getting insurance previously, or maybe they can keep a kid on their insurance plan longer etc etc.


Precisely. No clue how it really works. The percentage of people who would be able to obtain health insurance previously if only there was no preexisting condition issues is incredibly small. By far the largest group of people who had problems with health insurance (and the entire rational argued for needing health reform) was that they couldn't afford it, and their employer didn't provide it as a benefit.

Obamacare does not change that at all. And it arguably makes things worse for the working class folks who were already in that position, since it now forces them to pay a fine for not buying that health insurance that they can't afford. And the mandate regarding preexisting conditions will make it more likely that they can't afford it. And the requirements on small to medium sized businesses will increase the likelihood that they'll have their hours cut (so less money to pay for the insurance that they couldn't afford anyway). And it'll make it more likely that businesses which previously provided at least *some* health benefits (but maybe not stellar) will drop them because the costs are too high.

Many people will lose their existing health insurance because of Obamacare. And when they're faced with having to pay out of their own smaller pocketbooks for insurance on the exchanges, many of them will pay the fine/tax instead. The result is a lot of folks paying the government for the privilege of *not* having health insurance. Yeah. It's a totally screwed up law.

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On the flip side I think the strong opposition is much more political; They were told to oppose it or it's simply been sold as another government hand-out that they'll be paying taxes to support.


I think both sides were told to support or oppose it. The difference being that one side was convinced to support it by misleading them into thinking it would benefit them (ie: playing on their greed). The other was told to oppose it because it violated their principles *and* would hurt more people than it helped. The second group was at least not lied to.
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#22 Oct 03 2013 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
The second group was at least not lied to.


So, ACA is worse than slavery? ACA *literally* kills people?
#23 Oct 03 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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#24 Oct 03 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know of anyone who thinks Obamacare is free. But I'm sure gbaji does, and he'll give us examples.
#25 Oct 03 2013 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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Obamacare got me free birth control pills. Smiley: nod

But we still have to pay our full insurance premium each month.... well, what the employee doesn't already pay.

I heard a lot of small businesses who could not offer coverage to their employees before because it would cost too much are offering to kick in the cost of any premiums that people find on the exchanges, post subsidy. So someone making $16K/year who can get coverage for $100 a month with their subsidy may actually get it for free, if their employer chips in.

Those are the rare cases, though.
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#26 Oct 03 2013 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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I'm on individual insurance right now because I work part time and go to school part time, so I can't get insurance through either. I had been paying $90 / month in my full-time job last year (we had a very young workforce), when I went individual their standard quote was $190, then went up to $210 because of pre-existing conditions. And the coverage was a lot lower, especially on mental health (basically cost 2-3x as much for a therapist visit). So I'm curious to see what they are going to be charging me now that those requirements have kicked in. Haven't been on the ACA website yet to shop the exchange because I've been very busy.

One thing I wish is for mole biopsies/removals to be counted as preventative care, and thus charged less. I mean, a 15-minute procedure to slice off a mole has to cost orders of magnitude less than cancer treatment, so you'd think they'd incentivize that procedure by covering more of it.
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