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#52 Sep 05 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
They both say basically the same thing. If you own property in a community you pay taxes. If your town wants to build a new road, you pay for it with your taxes, regardless of whether you own a vehicle or not. ie the guy who drives a bike versus a car pays the same property taxes as the guy that drives the car. Similarly with schools, one pays the same rate of property taxes regardless of how many kids he may have.


Schools are a separate matter, but with car travel there are a host of things that pay for the roads and infrastructure beyond just property taxes. Most states apply taxes on gas, which helps pay for the roads. There's also a portion of the yearly vehicle registration fees that goes to maintaining the roads (and often the highway patrol as well). Actually, that's pretty much the purpose of having registration fees. So while I'm sure some portion of property taxes also get dumped into roads, it's a smaller portion, and someone who does not operate a vehicle is paying a far smaller portion of the cost of those roads.

I'm not sure where the comparison is anyway. Charging a $85 fee to sign up for a pre-screening type of thing to allow one to more quickly get through the airport is a reasonable thing. I'm not sure how much it'll do in terms of security, but as Joph pointed out, if the guys who fly all the time and have no problem ponying up fingerprints and allowing a background check pay for this and thus aren't in my line, then that helps me, and I don't have to pay a dime.
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#53 Sep 05 2013 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

As someone with a degree in Security and Intel, I'm torn on the airport security aspect. On the one hand it provides jobs, but on the other hand it really is completely, 100% pointless, because you will never manage to stop that one crazy zealot from getting through if they are willing to die for it. We would be much better off financially and as a society if we just took a "well, sh*t happens" approach to alot of this and just went with the standard security precautions that the rest of the planet gets along just fine with.

I have to imagine that a true risk assessment and analysis would not lead to such high costs in airport security.

From this end of the Iraq War, I'd beg to differ.
Would read better like this:

Quote:
I have to imagine that a true risk assessment and analysis should not lead to such high costs in airport security.


But people are panicky idiots, and such. It's not about what the risk is but what people think their risk is, or something. Smiley: rolleyes
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#54 Sep 05 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Just put everyone but the crew to sleep for the duration of the flight. Problem solved.
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#55 Sep 05 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I have to imagine that a true risk assessment and analysis would not lead to such high costs in airport security.

A true risk assessment analysis would determine that pre 2001 screening policies worked fine, and that it is completely impossible to prevent a plane being hijacked without resorting to fascism. Risk exists, that's life.

Edited, Sep 5th 2013 1:56pm by Smasharoo
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#56 Sep 05 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Just put everyone but the crew to sleep for the duration of the flight. Problem solved.
Worked in The Fifth Element.
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#57 Sep 05 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Can foreigners apply for this?
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#58 Sep 05 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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You're just trying to steal our jorbs.
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#59 Sep 05 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
Just put everyone but the crew to sleep for the duration of the flight. Problem solved.

Like putting the dog to sleep?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#60 Sep 05 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Can foreigners apply for this?


No, I listened to it on NPR this morning, it was only available to US Citizens.

Jophiel wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Just put everyone but the crew to sleep for the duration of the flight. Problem solved.

Like putting the dog to sleep?

No, just strap everyone to the roof of the plane...

Edited, Sep 5th 2013 3:09pm by TirithRR
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#61 Sep 05 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Can foreigners apply for this?


I DO see a mention of fusing it with the Nexus (or whatever that Canadian program is called) on their website. Whether or not foreigners can apply for this program, or how that will work, I'm not sure.
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#62 Sep 05 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Can foreigners apply for this?
I DO see a mention of fusing it with the Nexus (or whatever that Canadian program is called) on their website.

Canadians don't really count as people anyway.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#63 Sep 05 2013 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Anyone who travels enough to need a fast pass system can easily afford to spend $85 to enter a program, it's a tiny fraction of the overall travel budget.
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#64 Sep 05 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Just put everyone but the crew to sleep for the duration of the flight. Problem solved.

Like putting the dog to sleep?


Also works as an environmental policy.
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#65 Sep 05 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Can foreigners apply for this?
I DO see a mention of fusing it with the Nexus (or whatever that Canadian program is called) on their website.

Canadians don't really count as people anyway.
We're a commodity.
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#66 Sep 05 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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In Illinois, not everybody pays the same to use the toll roads. If you don't spend extra for an I-pass, tolls cost more per plaza if you stop and pay cash instead of just driving by.
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In theory you don't pay extra for the I-Pass. But to get one, you need to shell out $50 -- $10 refundable deposit on the transceiver unit and $40 to 'charge' it with cash.

If you're not planning to use $40 worth of tolls any time soon, I can see how it would feel as though you're paying extra for the privilege. And you're right about the double-tolls for people who still pay with cash.
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#68 Sep 05 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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Everything costs the same in NJ.

Which is ******* expensive, so that's not saying much. The Garden State Parkway is technically one of the cheaper toll roads in the country, per mile, but it's one of the only freaking ways to even get anywhere if you're going North/South (the Turnpike being the other major route). It would take me an hour longer to get to work, at the absolute minimum, if I wasn't taking the parkway.
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#69 Sep 05 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Here in the land of sunshine and unicorns, we have these things called freeways that don't cost any money to drive on and get you where you want to go quickly and directly. Of course, we pay high gas taxes and registration fees for the privilege. There are some tollways, but they're rare. I can only think of one actual highway that is entirely toll to travel in San Diego county (the south section of 125). There's a section of the 15 that has HOV lanes which you can use a pay pass on if you aren't carpooling. But there's really only a narrow window of time each day when that's probably worth doing.

So... yay us?
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#70 Sep 05 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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We have freeways as well, although most of the major ones near the city are at least partially toll roads since the slackers down in Effingham and Peoria don't want to pay higher gas taxes/registration fees on our behalf. Really, in the civilized portions of the Land of Lincoln we just call them all "expressways" and expect people to know which ones have tolls and which ones don't but I figured I'd call them "tollways" for the sake of lesser people living outside Chicago & the collar counties.

Edited, Sep 5th 2013 7:16pm by Jophiel
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#71 Sep 05 2013 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Didn't we have a thread awhile back where it was determined/discovered that "freeway" has nothing to do with whether it costs money to drive on it? Yeah. I'm just ignoring that. Ok. I forgot until just now


Um... But the important thing here is that there are no freeways (or highways/expessways/whateverways) near where I live where it's more than a minor inconvenience to avoid paying a toll. Certainly nothing like "OMG! If you don't pay the toll, you have to spend hours driving around!!!". There's one tollway. It's a new section of highway that goes to a newish development (Eastlake) in the south part of the county. The folks who live there can pay for their highway with the tolls. And if they don't want to? There's a parallel interstate highway about 10 miles west of it that they can take. And frankly, from most directions it's not a significantly longer drive. It's only a real time saver if you're basically traveling from the north east or east part of the county to the south east part. If you're anywhere central/west of the main N/S interstate(s), you're basically given a rectangular choice of routes. If you go east then south, you pay money. If you go south and then east, you don't. I suppose during some time periods there could be some traffic issues (cause there is this whole international border thing that the interstate runs smack into), but that's about it.

Edited, Sep 5th 2013 5:36pm by gbaji
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#72 Sep 05 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
... because you will never manage to stop that one crazy zealot from getting through if they are willing to die for it. We would be much better off financially and as a society if we just took a "well, sh*t happens" approach to alot of this and just went with the standard security precautions that the rest of the planet gets along just fine with. The liquid restriction for example. Could someone make a binary explosive bomb that would bring down an aircraft by combining liquids? Sure. But they could also swallow the liquids right before bording drug mule style and never be detected, and if they're going to blow themselves up anyways, they aren't worried about long term health risks. Could someone put a bomb in a shoe? Yes. Will it likely be large enough to even minorly inconveniance an aircraft? Probably not. yet every time I go to an airport they single out the guy with the big feet now.


Kinda my thought as well, we should just get rid of the current ridiculous security procedures alltogether rather than have to pay to get cleared to avoid most of it.

I do have to travel fairly regularly for work now adays, which was why this story caught my eye. I supposed if I travelled every couple years like I used to I'd be more inclined to not give a ****.
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#73 Sep 05 2013 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Here in the land of sunshine and unicorns, we have these things called freeways that don't cost any money to drive on and get you where you want to go quickly

Right, like the 125. Oh wait.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#74 Sep 05 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Um... But the important thing here is that there are no freeways (or highways/expessways/whateverways) near where I live where it's more than a minor inconvenience to avoid paying a toll.

For certain loose definitions of "important".
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#75 Sep 05 2013 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Certainly nothing like "OMG! If you don't pay the toll, you have to spend hours driving around!!!".
That has a lot more to do with your living somewhere that's total population can be counted by a six year old.
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#76 Sep 06 2013 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Certainly nothing like "OMG! If you don't pay the toll, you have to spend hours driving around!!!".
That has a lot more to do with your living somewhere that's total population can be counted by a six year old.


This.

Google predicts an hour and 12 minutes for me to get to work. (The entire route is basically under construction right now, so even going as fast as the left lane will allow, it's usually more like 1.5 hours).

Avoiding tolls means it wants me to take Route 9, and predicts an extra 20 minutes. Which is absolute ********* because Route 9 is a hellhole with low speed limits, lights every 6 feet, tons of congestion, and multiple junctions with highways out of ****.

So yeah, I pay $4.50 a day in tolls to get to work.

I just mapped it to the nearest comic shop. Google said it would take me 23 minutes without tolls. It could take me more than 23 minutes to get there on the parkway; no chance in **** it would be so quick on Rt 9. We're looking at at least double the time. It's only 13 miles.


Sure, there ARE alternate routes to paying tolls... that would end up costing you WAY more in gas anyway. It's not a minor inconvenience to avoid toll roads in NJ, assuming you don't live in the middle of the Pine Barrens. It's legitimately difficult, and will probably hurt more than tolls.
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#77 Sep 06 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Places in the Chicago area are usually accessible without taking tollways.

Google Maps tells me that Joliet (southwest suburbs) to Winnetka (North suburb) would take 60 miles/1hr 10min without tolls or 55 miles/1hr 6 min with tolls. Although you might find more discrepancy during mid day or on a weekend than morning rush hour on a weekday.
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#78 Sep 06 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Here in the land of sunshine and unicorns, we have these things called freeways that don't cost any money to drive on and get you where you want to go quickly and directly.

I know. In the land of snow and 10k lakes we had no pay roads. We only traveled west from the twin cities, because traveling east (beyond central WI) just led to mobsters, stinky air, and toll roads.
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#79 Sep 06 2013 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Certainly nothing like "OMG! If you don't pay the toll, you have to spend hours driving around!!!".
That has a lot more to do with your living somewhere that's total population can be counted by a six year old.
Sounds about right. Most of the highways on my end of Canuckland are free*. Actually, barring a few exceptions, most of the highways up here are free*.





*Paid for by our outrageous gas taxes.
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#80 Sep 06 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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It's not a minor inconvenience to avoid toll roads in NJ

It is, however, a very minor one to avoid NJ.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#81 Sep 06 2013 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
It's not a minor inconvenience to avoid toll roads in NJ

It is, however, a very minor one to avoid NJ.


That's how I feel about Delaware.

Or, as I like to call it, the nation's largest traffic jam.
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#82 Sep 06 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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That's how I feel about Delaware.

Nexa is fairly well convinced that Delaware is pretend State with cardboard building fronts and mail drops for banks and insurance companies to avoid taxes. I mean, really, what's the other option, that it's a state full of people who elected Biden to the Senate like 40 times? Come now.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#83 Sep 06 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
I can only think of one actual highway that is entirely toll to travel in San Diego county (the south section of 125).


gbaji wrote:
There's one tollway. It's a new section of highway that goes to a newish development (Eastlake) in the south part of the county. The folks who live there can pay for their highway with the tolls. And if they don't want to? There's a parallel interstate highway about 10 miles west of it that they can take. And frankly, from most directions it's not a significantly longer drive. It's only a real time saver if you're basically traveling from the north east or east part of the county to the south east part. If you're anywhere central/west of the main N/S interstate(s), you're basically given a rectangular choice of routes. If you go east then south, you pay money. If you go south and then east, you don't. I suppose during some time periods there could be some traffic issues (cause there is this whole international border thing that the interstate runs smack into), but that's about it.


Smasharoo wrote:
Here in the land of sunshine and unicorns, we have these things called freeways that don't cost any money to drive on and get you where you want to go quickly

Right, like the 125. Oh wait.


Um... That's what I was talking about. It's an utterly avoidable tollway that doesn't save much time unless you actually live in or are traveling to the area it runs through *and* are coming from or going to somewhere else that's in the eastern part of the county. Given that the major population areas are in the western part of the county, and there is a major interstate and interstate loop that run N/S that are both west of the 125, it's not a highway that 99% of the folks living here ever have to even consider using.

Edited, Sep 6th 2013 2:00pm by gbaji
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#84 Sep 09 2013 at 4:39 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
That's how I feel about Delaware.

Nexa is fairly well convinced that Delaware is pretend State with cardboard building fronts and mail drops for banks and insurance companies to avoid taxes. I mean, really, what's the other option, that it's a state full of people who elected Biden to the Senate like 40 times? Come now.
The only thing I know about Delaware is that they have Dogfish Head, the rest may be fictional for all I know.
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#85 Sep 09 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

As someone with a degree in Security and Intel, I'm torn on the airport security aspect. On the one hand it provides jobs, but on the other hand it really is completely, 100% pointless, because you will never manage to stop that one crazy zealot from getting through if they are willing to die for it. We would be much better off financially and as a society if we just took a "well, sh*t happens" approach to alot of this and just went with the standard security precautions that the rest of the planet gets along just fine with.

I have to imagine that a true risk assessment and analysis would not lead to such high costs in airport security.

From this end of the Iraq War, I'd beg to differ.

Yeah that's the nice thing about risk assessments, they're based on data and not on points of view.
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#86 Sep 09 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Nexa is fairly well convinced that Delaware is pretend State with cardboard building fronts and mail drops for banks and insurance companies to avoid taxes.
There's a few pretend states. It's to give us a nice, round number like 50.
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#87 Sep 09 2013 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Nexa is fairly well convinced that Delaware is pretend State with cardboard building fronts and mail drops for banks and insurance companies to avoid taxes.
There's a few pretend states. It's to give us a nice, round number like 50.

Technically Maine was chopped off from Mass as part of the Louisiana Purchase keep the numbers balanced - equal number slave states with free states.
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