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#252 Jul 15 2013 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .
gbaji wrote:
Martin wasn't bright enough to realize that the person he decided to bully might be armed, and paid for that mistake with his life. What we can hope is that the next kid who thinks he can knock someone around because he's bigger and stronger will remember what happened to Martin and realize that it might cost him his life, and maybe *not* do what Martin did.
@#%^, that was easy.
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#253 Jul 15 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .


Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal, and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


So, I ask again. What evidence do you have to support the speculation that Martin was about to commit a crime?
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#254 Jul 15 2013 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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I am not Trayvon Martin.

I did many of the same things he did in school; smoked pot, got in trouble from time to time, was even suspended once. For some crazy reason nobody thought my lily white ass was any sort of violent, dangerously subhuman criminal for it; instead I was given the benefit of the doubt and my ordinary teenage behavior was classified as ordinary teenager behavior instead of "thuggery" or being a "gangster" whatever the codeword for "n*****" is today. I was allowed to live long enough to outgrow it. Funny how that works.

No self-appointed vigilante has ever felt some sort of burning need to stalk me in the middle of the night or demand I justify my presence to them just because I had the nerve to walk to the corner grocery store. If they had, I'm fairly certain I would have panicked, maybe thrown a punch or tried to run. If they had shot me because of my completely normal reaction to their bizarre, aggressive behavior I am pretty sure they'd have been in jail that night and remained there after the very short trial, because killing a white kid who was committing no crime whatsoever is actually recognized as illegal in this country. If Zimmerman had shot me, he wouldn't be clean-cut harmless "Georgie," he'd be the "dangerous hispanic man with a lengthy criminal record who executed an unarmed teenager." Funny how that works.

Somehow I think that jury of mostly white women would've had an easier time identifying with my unarmed, candy-carrying corpse than Trayvon's. Somehow I think all the racists who can barely contain their glee at Zimmerman getting away scot free would be pretty happy with the exact opposite verdict if "Georgie" had stalked and shot a white kid. Funny how that works.


From here.
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#255 Jul 15 2013 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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#256 Jul 16 2013 at 5:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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^^ This.
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#257 Jul 16 2013 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's bad enough when posters on this forum repeat "facts" that are absolutely untrue, but it should be a big giant warning flare that the following is BS (or at least very biased) when an article repeats such an untruth:
Guess now you know how the rest of us feel when you post.
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#258 Jul 16 2013 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .
gbaji wrote:
Martin wasn't bright enough to realize that the person he decided to bully might be armed, and paid for that mistake with his life. What we can hope is that the next kid who thinks he can knock someone around because he's bigger and stronger will remember what happened to Martin and realize that it might cost him his life, and maybe *not* do what Martin did.
@#%^, that was easy.


That happened well after Zimmerman got out of his car though. You're right. That was easy!

Alma is arguing that Zimmerman is guilty of murder because when he got out of the car and decided to follow Martin, he could not at that moment prove that Martin had committed or was going to commit a crime. Which is a completely ridiculous standard. Which I've stated several times.
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#259 Jul 16 2013 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .


Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal, and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


So, I ask again. What evidence do you have to support the speculation that Martin was about to commit a crime?


You do understand the definition of "speculation", right?


How do you get from me speculating, to an absolute requirement that said speculation must be proven, otherwise Zimmerman is guilty of murder? That's a stretch, don't you think? Zimmerman had every right to get out of his car. He had every right to follow Martin. He does not have to prove that Martin is or will commit a crime, to do so. So the fact that he got out of his car and followed Martin does not make him a murderer.
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#260 Jul 16 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Default
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No self-appointed vigilante has ever felt some sort of burning need to stalk me in the middle of the night or demand I justify my presence to them just because I had the nerve to walk to the corner grocery store. If they had, I'm fairly certain I would have panicked, maybe thrown a punch or tried to run. If they had shot me because of my completely normal reaction to their bizarre, aggressive behavior I am pretty sure they'd have been in jail that night and remained there after the very short trial, because killing a white kid who was committing no crime whatsoever is actually recognized as illegal in this country.


And the neighborhood watch member would be the one exhibiting bizarre, aggressive behavior in that scenario? We're living in upside down world.

No. Mr. Lily White Idiot who posted that would not have done those things. If an obvious security guard, watchman, or police officer had walked up to him to question him about his behavior, he would have stood there and talked to him, convinced him that he wasn't doing anything wrong, and then gone home to play video games. That's the reason his odds of getting shot and killed are like 1/100th of that of a black kid his same age and socio-economic condition.

The problem is that black kids are taught to fear authority figures. Especially white authority figures (or those that merely appear white). That fear leads them to doing incredibly stupid things, for what appears to be absolutely no reason at all. They run from police. They attack the nosy watchman. They hide from the security guard. They think they have to do this because they've had it drilled into them that they will be treated unfairly and that there is no justice for them. Sadly, in cases like Martin's we find that this becomes a self fulfilling prediction.

Had he simply continued walking at a normal pace towards his home, he would not have been shot and killed. His own fear was the cause of his death. And *that's* the real problem we ought to be talking about.
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#261 Jul 16 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
You do understand the definition of "speculation", right?


How do you get from me speculating, to an absolute requirement that said speculation must be proven, otherwise Zimmerman is guilty of murder? That's a stretch, don't you think? Zimmerman had every right to get out of his car. He had every right to follow Martin. He does not have to prove that Martin is or will commit a crime, to do so. So the fact that he got out of his car and followed Martin does not make him a murderer.


You didn't answer the question. Facts are what differentiate "speculation" from "prejudice". You know that Martin was on the phone with a bag of skittles. So what facts do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime? If you have no facts, then by definition, you are prejudging not speculating. Maybe you're the one who needs to understand those definitions.

If you misspoke, just man up and admit it.
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#262 Jul 16 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Well, supposing that black kids are taught to fear authority figures, by the authority figures themselves, does seem to be quite a problem. Zimm assuming that Tray was criminalizin' causes just as much trouble as Tray assuming that Zimm assumes that he's criminalizin'.
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#263 Jul 16 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
You do understand the definition of "speculation", right?


You didn't answer the question. Facts are what differentiate "speculation" from "prejudice". You know that Martin was on the phone with a bag of skittles. So what facts do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime? If you have no facts, then by definition, you are prejudging not speculating. Maybe you're the one who needs to understand those definitions.


Seriously? Way to prove my point.

Quote:
If you misspoke, just man up and admit it.


I used precisely the correct word (yes, I chose that dictionary for a reason. gotta keep things as simple as possible):

1 : to think about something and make guesses about it : to form ideas or theories about something usually when there are many things not known about it [no obj] ▪ She could only speculate about/on her friend's motives. ▪ He speculated as to whether she would come. ▪ We don't know what happened—we can only speculate. [+ obj] — + that ▪ Scientists speculate that the illness is caused by a virus.


Speculations, by definition, do not require proof. Cause they're... wait for it... speculations. WTF!?

Edited, Jul 16th 2013 6:24pm by gbaji
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#264 Jul 16 2013 at 7:33 PM Rating: Default
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Debalic wrote:
Well, supposing that black kids are taught to fear authority figures, by the authority figures themselves, does seem to be quite a problem. Zimm assuming that Tray was criminalizin' causes just as much trouble as Tray assuming that Zimm assumes that he's criminalizin'.


It would be interesting to find some research on the ratio of cases where African Americans are actually mistreated by police or other authority figures compared to the number of cases where their fear of being mistreated causes them to take actions which then cause the authority figure to respond in a harmful way towards them. That would seem to be relevant in a case like this, where we might want to think about Martins odds of being shot to death if he walks home openly and calmly (and willing to allow Zimmerman to approach and question him) versus running and hiding from Zimmerman. How often really does allowing the authority to approach and talk to you and taking the risk that he'll arrest you or beat you for no reason really result in harm versus choosing to flee, hide, or fight?

If I were to guess (or speculate even!), I might think we're talking about a pretty huge ratio tilting towards more bad results if they fear the authority versus the other way around.
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#265 Jul 16 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Which is Gbaji speak for "I'm talking out my ass".
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#266 Jul 16 2013 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:

Speculations, by definition, do not require proof. Cause they're... wait for it... speculations. WTF!?


I do recall specifically saying in the last post "facts". You're confusing the word "fact" with "proof". A fact isn't proof of anything happening. "Zimmerman is a man", is a fact. That isn't proof that he's guilty of any crime. Just because you can't PROVE something, does not negate facts. Again, that's the difference between speculating and prejudging.

So, I ask again. What FACTS do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime?



Notice how the first definition, without proof, involves a thought process while the second definition does not involve either? Just because you can't PROVE it, does not negate facts.


1.to engage in thought or reflection; meditate (often followed by on, upon, or a clause).

2.to indulge in conjectural thought.

3.to engage in any business transaction involving considerable risk or the chance of large gains, especially to buy and sell commodities, stocks, etc., in the expectation of a quick or very large profit.



1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2.any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

3.unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

4.such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.

5.damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.




Edited, Jul 17th 2013 5:23am by Almalieque
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#267 Jul 16 2013 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
Alma is arguing that Zimmerman is guilty of murder because when he got out of the car and decided to follow Martin, he could not at that moment prove that Martin had committed or was going to commit a crime. Which is a completely ridiculous standard. Which I've stated several times.


Uh? I'm not sure where you got that nonsense from. That's the reason why I'm attacking this one point at a time, because you seem to mix stuff together with stuff that you made up. Very common on this forum.
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#268 Jul 17 2013 at 4:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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What FACTS do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime?
He was black, wearing a hoodie and eating skittles, which everyone knows unleashes the BEAST mode.
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#269 Jul 17 2013 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Gbaji wrote:
It would be interesting to find some research on the ratio of cases where African Americans are actually mistreated by police or other authority figures compared to the number of cases where their fear of being mistreated causes them to take actions which then cause the authority figure to respond in a harmful way towards them. That would seem to be relevant in a case like this, where we might want to think about Martins odds of being shot to death if he walks home openly and calmly (and willing to allow Zimmerman to approach and question him) versus running and hiding from Zimmerman. How often really does allowing the authority to approach and talk to you and taking the risk that he'll arrest you or beat you for no reason really result in harm versus choosing to flee, hide, or fight?


Uppity black folk. How dare they attempt to stand up for their rights!

What right does someone have to be a black youth in this country after getting into an altercation with a creepy dude whom outweighs him by 100lbs & was arrested & charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer" (but got off because his Dad was a magistrate & he went to rehab), after being stalked both in a truck & on foot, to swing back?

None, in Florida, apparently. But if Martin had a legal gun on him, I'm supposed to believe he would have found innocent if Zimmerman died?

Laughable.
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#270 Jul 17 2013 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Quote:
What FACTS do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime?
He was black, wearing a hoodie and eating skittles, which everyone knows unleashes the BEAST RAINBOW mode.

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#271 Jul 17 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Sigh...

Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


Given the fact he had nothing on him to prove any guilt of anything else other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time, your speculation has no value.



Are we done with your ridiculous line of nutty reasoning now? I'm not even sure what point you're arguing. I said at the very beginning that this was just speculation on my part. However, it's as legitimate (more legitimate IMO) a line of speculation as the idea that Martin thought Zimmerman was some kind of crazed killer out to get him. Hell. Martin's girlfriend even gave an interview this week where she said straight out that "Craka" in her vocabulary (and Martin's) didn't refer to a white person but to a person of authority (police, security, etc). Which kinda does support my speculation that Martin thought Zimmerman was a member of the watch who was calling the police on him, and that's why he ran.

Add in the fact that he chose not to call 911 (which you'd think he'd do if he really thought there was a criminal chasing him rather than a watch member), and that he chose not to run directly home, and it further strengthens the idea that he might have been fleeing Zimmerman, not because he thought Zimmerman was a criminal, but because he saw Zimmerman as an extension of the law.

Again, this is speculation on my part. But I think it's pretty reasonable speculation. It certainly fits the facts better than "Black kid fleeing from someone he thought was a mugger/rapist/killer".
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#272 Jul 17 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh. And let me point out again, that there's no requirement for proof of a suspicion, to be suspicious, nor is that a requirement for a watch member to walk up to someone and ask them who they are and determine if they are supposed to be in the community. Claiming so is a ridiculous standard.
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#273 Jul 17 2013 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
It would be interesting to find some research on the ratio of cases where African Americans are actually mistreated by police or other authority figures compared to the number of cases where their fear of being mistreated causes them to take actions which then cause the authority figure to respond in a harmful way towards them. That would seem to be relevant in a case like this, where we might want to think about Martins odds of being shot to death if he walks home openly and calmly (and willing to allow Zimmerman to approach and question him) versus running and hiding from Zimmerman. How often really does allowing the authority to approach and talk to you and taking the risk that he'll arrest you or beat you for no reason really result in harm versus choosing to flee, hide, or fight?


Uppity black folk. How dare they attempt to stand up for their rights!


What rights are we talking about? I'm talking about the idea that in many cases it's not a difference in skin color that causes differences in outcomes, but differences in behavior, and that those differences of behavior themselves arise from black kids being taught to distrust and even fear law enforcement of any kind. Can you really be so sure that if a white kid had behaved exactly as Martin did that night that the outcome would have been different? I'm presenting for consideration the idea that whatever rate of actual racial discrimination towards black males that may exist among our law enforcement is significantly outweighed by the rate of fear based behavior by black males creating reactions from the police which cause negative outcomes for black males.

This is *not* a violation of anyone's rights, nor is it racial discrimination unless you can really argue that if a white kid had done exactly what Martin did, that the outcome would have been different. And I don't think you can really make a strong argument for that.

Quote:
What right does someone have to be a black youth in this country after getting into an altercation with a creepy dude whom outweighs him by 100lbs & was arrested & charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer" (but got off because his Dad was a magistrate & he went to rehab), after being stalked both in a truck & on foot, to swing back?


He has precisely the same rights to do those things as a white person does. The statistic is less about the other guy treating Martin differently because he's black, as it is about Martin acting differently because he's black. So maybe that's the problem? Just a thought.

Quote:
None, in Florida, apparently. But if Martin had a legal gun on him, I'm supposed to believe he would have found innocent if Zimmerman died?


Sure. If he'd been the one with the busted up nose, and witnesses reporting him on his back being punched by Zimmerman just before he fired, why assume otherwise? Ever consider that maybe that assumption is the root of the problem here? Perception not matching reality and all of that?

Quote:
Laughable.


Is it? Or do you just assume it is? The problem is that the media only reports stories that fit the narrative you're acting on. Clearly there are cases of shootings by black people of white people that do not result in murder/manslaughter convictions. Hell, the PBS article link clearly shows that there are since it measures how much more often the shooter is released based on SYG laws being present). Happens all the time. You just don't hear about it. Black man being found not guilty, or even not being charged, on the basis of self defense doesn't make the news. But it does happen.
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#274 Jul 17 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trying to rush to 30k Gbaji?
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#275 Jul 17 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Trying to rush to 30k Gbaji?


Nah. I usually don't get on to read this site until later in the day PST, so I'm often responding to several posts which responded to whatever I posted the day before. That and not enough threads going on.
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#276 Jul 17 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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I mean the double and triple posting. Surely it doesn't matter if you have a long post or a very long post. People are going to skim or skip it anyway.
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#277 Jul 17 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I mean the double and triple posting. Surely it doesn't matter if you have a long post or a very long post. People are going to skim or skip it anyway.


Because I'm responding to different things? Would you prefer I wrote one really big post in response to everything that's been posted since I last read the thread? Pick your poison!
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#278 Jul 17 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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#279 Jul 17 2013 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I suspect I speak for everyone when I say, "Yes."
What he said.
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#280 Jul 17 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I suspect I speak for everyone when I say, "Yes."
Don't care. No difference between one post or three if the person doing them is a lousy writer.
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#281 Jul 17 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I suspect I speak for everyone when I say, "Yes."
You'd be wrong.
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#282 Jul 17 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I suspect I speak for everyone when I say, "Yes."
Don't care. No difference between one post or three if the person doing them is a lousy writer.

Easier to ignore one post than three.
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#283 Jul 17 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I suspect I speak for everyone when I say, "Yes."
Don't care. No difference between one post or three if the person doing them is a lousy writer.

Easier to ignore one post than three.

Mhmm. When I click on a thread that has (4) new posts, I expect at least a couple of them to be someone readable.

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#284 Jul 17 2013 at 9:21 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
Are we done with your ridiculous line of nutty reasoning now? I'm not even sure what point you're arguing. I said at the very beginning that this was just speculation on my part. However, it's as legitimate (more legitimate IMO) a line of speculation as the idea that Martin thought Zimmerman was some kind of crazed killer out to get him. Hell. Martin's girlfriend even gave an interview this week where she said straight out that "Craka" in her vocabulary (and Martin's) didn't refer to a white person but to a person of authority (police, security, etc). Which kinda does support my speculation that Martin thought Zimmerman was a member of the watch who was calling the police on him, and that's why he ran.

Add in the fact that he chose not to call 911 (which you'd think he'd do if he really thought there was a criminal chasing him rather than a watch member), and that he chose not to run directly home, and it further strengthens the idea that he might have been fleeing Zimmerman, not because he thought Zimmerman was a criminal, but because he saw Zimmerman as an extension of the law.

Again, this is speculation on my part. But I think it's pretty reasonable speculation. It certainly fits the facts better than "Black kid fleeing from someone he thought was a mugger/rapist/killer


Almalieque wrote:
You didn't answer the question. Facts are what differentiate "speculation" from "prejudice". You know that Martin was on the phone with a bag of skittles. So what facts do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime? If you have no facts, then by definition, you are prejudging not speculating. Maybe you're the one who needs to understand those definitions.


You are an expert at avoiding questions. My above quote clearly clarified "facts" for support, not "proof".

You said yourself, that Martin didn't like "authority". If Martin is as thuggish as people like you want to make him out to be, it's possible that he had PREVIOUSLY done something and was scared getting caught. That doesn't support the speculation that he was ABOUT to commit a crime.

So, I ask again. What facts do you have to support your speculation that he was about to commit a crime? The only thing that you have done so far is support my argument that Martin was scared and ran. If you believe that it was due to a FUTURE crime as opposed to a PREVIOUS crime or just plain scared, then I would like to know what facts that you used to differentiate the two.
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#285 Jul 18 2013 at 1:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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What rights are we talking about? I'm talking about the idea that in many cases it's not a difference in skin color that causes differences in outcomes, but differences in behavior, and that those differences of behavior themselves arise from black kids being taught to distrust and even fear law enforcement of any kind.


While I don't argue that different behaviors can cause different outcomes when one deals with people of authority, resisting authority isn't always wrong. I also don't argue that some black kids may be taught to distrust & fear cops, I think how cops treat black people has a lot more to do with it. Cops in this country have disproportionally targeted blacks for generations. Verdicts handed down in the cases of Rodney King, Trayvon Martin, & that lady whom fired a warning shot in Florida & got 20 years further reinforce that belief.

Quote:
Can you really be so sure that if a white kid had behaved exactly as Martin did that night that the outcome would have been different?


Yes, I'm positive Zimmerman would have been arrested immediately & all evidence would have been collected. As opposed to what happen in Martin's case. I'm also positive Zimemrman would have been convicted of Manslaughter & that the story would have changed in the media to "overzelous hispanic cop-wannabe murders innocent white teenager". Fictional white teenagers suspension from school & pot use also wouldn't have gained any traction either.
Quote:

I'm presenting for consideration the idea that whatever rate of actual racial discrimination towards black males that may exist among our law enforcement is significantly outweighed by the rate of fear based behavior by black males creating reactions from the police which cause negative outcomes for black males.


I guess it depends on whether or not you think that fear based behavior by blacks is justified or not. I think history shows that it is, you obviously disagree. I think a black man has just as much of a right as a white man to resist authority but is disproportionally arrested, when compared to whites, for doing so. I'm positive any statistics on the subject would support that claim.

Quote:
This is *not* a violation of anyone's rights, nor is it racial discrimination unless you can really argue that if a white kid had done exactly what Martin did, that the outcome would have been different. And I don't think you can really make a strong argument for that.


Speculating hypotheticals never make strong arguments. But when a black woman gets 20 years for firing a warning shot right around the same time Zimmerman gets off for killing Martin, it certainly implies racial bias, doesn't it?
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#286 Jul 18 2013 at 6:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Disparaging a dead kid to try and bolster the defense of the white guy is pretty darn despicable.

I've heard the Black Panthers have a bounty out on Zimmerman...
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#287 Jul 18 2013 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Disparaging a dead kid to try and bolster the defense of the white guy is pretty darn despicable.

I've heard the Black Panthers have a bounty out on Zimmerman...


I didn't have the slightest clue the Black Panthers still existed...
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#288 Jul 18 2013 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Disparaging a dead kid to try and bolster the defense of the white guy is pretty darn despicable.
I guess it's easier to paint him as an evil demon if you ignore his hispanic roots and just stick to the white side.
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#289 Jul 18 2013 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Disparaging a dead kid to try and bolster the defense of the white guy is pretty darn despicable.

I've heard the Black Panthers have a bounty out on Zimmerman...


I didn't have the slightest clue the Black Panthers still existed...


They do, but they're more full gang now than armed protest movement like back in the day.
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#290 Jul 18 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Disparaging a dead kid to try and bolster the defense of the white guy is pretty darn despicable.

I've heard the Black Panthers have a bounty out on Zimmerman...


I didn't have the slightest clue the Black Panthers still existed...

We're in a season of Lost, and the island just shifted back in time.
#291 Jul 18 2013 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I guess it's easier to paint him as an evil demon if you ignore his hispanic roots and just stick to the white side.

Halfspanic!
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#292 Jul 18 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Disparaging a dead kid to try and bolster the defense of the white guy is pretty darn despicable.
I guess it's easier to paint him as an evil demon if you ignore his hispanic roots and just stick to the white side.
I didn't know gbaji had hispanic roots.

(dye's can help)
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#293 Jul 18 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Quote:
What FACTS do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime?
He was black, wearing a hoodie and eating skittles, which everyone knows unleashes the BEAST mode.

Smiley: nod

gbaji wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I mean the double and triple posting. Surely it doesn't matter if you have a long post or a very long post. People are going to skim or skip it anyway.


Because I'm responding to different things? Would you prefer I wrote one really big post in response to everything that's been posted since I last read the thread? Pick your poison!
I like the little ones. They're easier to read. If you're going to make big ones, try breaking them up with some illustrations or something.
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#294 Jul 18 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
You are an expert at avoiding questions. My above quote clearly clarified "facts" for support, not "proof".


And the one above that demanded "proof". Since that was the original question you asked, and to which you have repeatedly demanded an answer, that's the reason I haven't answered it.

Now if you want facts, which constitute "evidence" of my speculation, how about the following. Let's remember that we're assessing the relative likelihood that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because he thought Zimmerman was a killer/stalker/whatever, or Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because he thought Zimmerman was a law abiding/concerned/whatever citizen who was calling the cops on him:

1. FACT: Martin was roaming around in a manner in which Zimmerman thought was suspicious, well before Zimmerman knew Martin was black.

2. FACT: Zimmerman was sitting in his car for quite some time watching Martin walk towards him, while describing what was going on to police.

3. FACT: Martin fled from Zimmerman seconds after seeing Zimmerman sitting in his car, watching him, and talking on his phone.

4. FACT: Martin did not call 911, either upon spotting Zimmerman in the car or after Zimmerman exited the car and followed him.

5. FACT: Martin did not run directly home, but some how managed to encounter Zimmerman nearly 3 minutes (by my count right around 2:48 seconds) after fleeing from this threatening man sitting in his car talking on his cell phone approximately 100 feet away from where he originally saw Zimmerman.


My problem with the "he was afraid of Zimmerman because he thought he was a criminal/stalker/whatever" is that Martin ran *before* Zimmerman ever chased him. He ran before he could have known that Zimmerman was going to follow him. He ran from a man sitting in a parked car talking on his cell phone. There is no rational explanation for that behavior. Too many people keep repeating the "he was being followed, so that's why he was scared" assumption, but at the time he ran from Zimmerman he had not been followed at all. He wasn't even aware that Zimmerman was there until he (Martin) walked relatively close to Zimmerman's parked car. Else we can assume he wouldn't have been walking towards him for a good block.

Given that Zimmerman thought Martin's behavior was suspicious, it's a reasonable assumption that Martin would realize that his behavior would look suspicious to a third party. If you were doing something that you know looked suspicious, and then suddenly realized that the car parked on the side of the road that you've been walking towards for the last few minutes is occupied and the person inside is looking at you and talking on his phone, what would be your assumption? You might think that guys calling the cops, right? Otherwise, why would you run from that person right after seeing him?


Let's turn this around. What facts support the claim that Martin thought Zimmerman was a killer/stalker/whatever intent to do him harm, and that's why he ran. Remember to support such a claim you have to show something about Zimmerman that Martin would have known prior to his decision to flee from Zimmerman. I don't think there's evidence to support this, but you're free to try.

And if you mention anything that happened *after* Martin fled, you automatically lose.

Quote:
You said yourself, that Martin didn't like "authority". If Martin is as thuggish as people like you want to make him out to be, it's possible that he had PREVIOUSLY done something and was scared getting caught. That doesn't support the speculation that he was ABOUT to commit a crime.


I'm still unsure why you believe this is a requirement for anything though.

Quote:
So, I ask again. What facts do you have to support your speculation that he was about to commit a crime?


I have never made this speculation.

Edited, Jul 18th 2013 12:28pm by gbaji
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#295 Jul 18 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.


Smiley: rolleyes
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#296 Jul 18 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
And if you mention anything that happened *after* Martin fled, you automatically lose.
Just the fact the two of you are continuing this after the verdict means we've all lost.
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#297 Jul 18 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And if you mention anything that happened *after* Martin fled, you automatically lose.
Just the fact the two of you are continuing this after the verdict means we've all lost our minds.
They don't call this place the asylum for fun.
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#298 Jul 18 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Default
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Omegavegeta wrote:
While I don't argue that different behaviors can cause different outcomes when one deals with people of authority, resisting authority isn't always wrong.


Resisting in the form of running away from or arguing/fighting with the police right there on the scene is nearly always the wrong course of action. Scratch that. It *is* always the wrong thing to do. Even if the cops are completely in the wrong at the time, you're never going to make your outcomes better doing that.

Quote:
I also don't argue that some black kids may be taught to distrust & fear cops, I think how cops treat black people has a lot more to do with it.


And I think the perception of how the cops will treat black people far far outweighs the reality. Meaning that a hell of a lot of young black men get in trouble with the law for "resisting" something that likely would not have happened.

Quote:
Cops in this country have disproportionally targeted blacks for generations. Verdicts handed down in the cases of Rodney King, Trayvon Martin, & that lady whom fired a warning shot in Florida & got 20 years further reinforce that belief.


Those are all terrible cases to make for this argument though.

Quote:
Yes, I'm positive Zimmerman would have been arrested immediately & all evidence would have been collected. As opposed to what happen in Martin's case.


Excuse me? Zimmerman was detained, questioned, and evidence was collected. Just as would have happened if the person he shot was white. He would not be "arrested immediately" because they don't do this in shooting cases where someone claims self defense unless there's clear evidence that it wasn't. Yes. Even if the victim is white.

Quote:
I'm also positive Zimemrman would have been convicted of Manslaughter & that the story would have changed in the media to "overzelous hispanic cop-wannabe murders innocent white teenager". Fictional white teenagers suspension from school & pot use also wouldn't have gained any traction either.


This is your own bias though. Which is part of the problem I'm talking about. Begging the question.


Quote:
I guess it depends on whether or not you think that fear based behavior by blacks is justified or not.


It's not a binary question though. It's a matter of degrees. A cop car pulls up behind you and flashes its lights. You know you've done nothing wrong, but you're black and are afraid the cop is pulling you over for "driving while black" because you've been taught that this happens. Your choices are to pull over, answer the cops questions, and risk a negative outcome because the cop is racist *or* run from him, get into a highs speed chase, and virtually guarantee a negative outcome. That's the problem. And a hell of a lot of young black men end out in jail because they ran from and/or fought with cops for no reason other than that they were scared the cop would do something bad to them.

That's the harm. And I'm suggesting that the negative from that assumptive fear far far outweigh the negatives from actual racist cops.

Quote:
I think a black man has just as much of a right as a white man to resist authority but is disproportionally arrested, when compared to whites, for doing so. I'm positive any statistics on the subject would support that claim.


I think that the statistics show that black men foolishly resist authority out of proportion when compared to whites, which causes them to be arrested disproportionally compared to whites. And then people look at the arrest statistics, conclude that there must be racism by police towards black men, and feed the exact fear that is causing the problem in the first place.

Quote:
But when a black woman gets 20 years for firing a warning shot right around the same time Zimmerman gets off for killing Martin, it certainly implies racial bias, doesn't it?


Only if you have no idea what the facts are. It doesn't imply anything. It outright tells us that two radically different cases are going to have two radically different outcomes. If Martin and Zimmerman had gotten into a fight, then Zimmerman left, went to his car, then came back and shot at Martin while he was sitting on a couch and was successfully able to claim self defense *then* you'd have a point. Um... But that isn't what happened.

Complete Apples and Oranges.
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#299 Jul 18 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
While I don't argue that different behaviors can cause different outcomes when one deals with people of authority, resisting authority isn't always wrong.


Resisting in the form of running away from or arguing/fighting with the police right there on the scene is nearly always the wrong course of action. Scratch that. It *is* always the wrong thing to do. Even if the cops are completely in the wrong at the time, you're never going to make your outcomes better doing that.

Stick with nearly always.

Something about a single female pulled over on a deserted road late at night, and a thread derail into "no-marks" land. Smiley: rolleyes
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#300 Jul 18 2013 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
While I don't argue that different behaviors can cause different outcomes when one deals with people of authority, resisting authority isn't always wrong.


Resisting in the form of running away from or arguing/fighting with the police right there on the scene is nearly always the wrong course of action. Scratch that. It *is* always the wrong thing to do. Even if the cops are completely in the wrong at the time, you're never going to make your outcomes better doing that.

Stick with nearly always.

Something about a single female pulled over on a deserted road late at night, and a thread derail into "no-marks" land. Smiley: rolleyes


Sure. I was talking about actually running away versus driving to a safer spot to pull over. But point taken. Although I'm pretty sure that the "I was afraid the cop would rape me!" defense isn't likely to stand after a high speed chase across three county lines.
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#301 Jul 18 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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