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#77 Jul 04 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."
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#78 Jul 04 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Trite 'wisdom' dropped off in an airy drive-by. You really added to the conversation there, buddy.

Thanks for your input. It is valued. You are valued.
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#79 Jul 04 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."


That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.
#80 Jul 04 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."


That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.


Hence why they tried to find 6 jurors who, allegedly, had never heard of the case.

Which, of course, means that they're 6 jurors who are either filthy liars or backwater hillbillies who haven't spoken to another human being in 2 years.
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#81 Jul 04 2013 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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People here say you're stupid, but I always like to give the benefit of the doubt. It seems that no matter how many times it's been mentioned, you keep missing it. Zimmerman briefly pursued Martin, but lost sight of him quickly. It was while he was returning to his vehicle that he was "jumped" by Martin. At this point, Martin becomes the aggressor. If this is "in fact" how it happened, then Zimmerman is within his rights to use deadly force to defend himself. You don't know exactly what happened. I don't know exactly what happened. Let's wait for more evidence to be released at trial before we condemn this man, unlike what most of the country has already done.


Well, if you listen to "those people", you will be no smarter than them. However, I'll give you the same benefit of the doubt. If you read what I've said, I was not in no way condemning Zimmerman. I've said several times that none of us knew what happened at the brawl. His killing may have very well been justified.

My only point, which you obviously overlooked, is that BOTH parties are at some fault for the conclusion. Gbaji was painting Zimmerman as being fault free, just as everyone else is/was painting Martin as being guilt free. So unless you have beef with the thought that maybe both people were at fault and we don't know what happened, that's for the courts to decide, I'm not sure of your concern.

what's the difference between "briefly pursuing him" and "briefly chasing him?". All you're doing is using less aggressive words in attempt to make him seem less guilty of any wrong doing.

1. If Martin ran away, then he expressed not wanting to get involved, or he would have stayed there or ran towards him. It makes absolutely no sense to run away from him then all of the sudden run towards him. That might have happened, but doesn't seem logical.

2. A more logical explanation (assuming that Zimmerman got jumped) is that Zimmerman continued to chase him, even after losing sight, then got jumped when he got near Martin.

3. If Zimmerman "lost" sight of Martin, then that means that there were some good amount of distance between them. It would have taken Martin the same amount of time + the distance from where he took off to catch up with Zimmerman. If it were only a "briefly pursue", then Zimmerman should have safely returned to his car before Martin arrived.

4. What was Zimmerman doing before he got jumped? Could he not hear him running towards him? If it were only a "brief pursue", it would have taken Martin awhile to turn around catch him. So what was Zimmerman doing the whole time? Just casually walking with his head down?

5. Given the fact that he was told not to go after Martin and he did anyway, knowing the distance between them, it is out of character for Zimmerman to just "give up" and idly walk back to his car.

I've admitted that being overseas, I'm not as updated on the story as I once was. However, don't come to me with "facts", just to say that you don't know what happened either. We're both in the same boat. The only difference is, I'm giving both parties fault at what happened.
#82 Jul 04 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demoncard wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."


That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.
You're not very smart, are you?
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#83 Jul 04 2013 at 5:35 PM Rating: Default
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Demoncard wrote:

That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.


Being a Sage with 61 posts hardly seems fair either. I joke I kid... Seriously though, even without the media, people will have bias. The point is to attack the scenario objectively.

Oh, this reminds me of "12 Angry Men"...
#84 Jul 04 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
reminds me of "12 Angry Men"...


Reminds me more of "12 Angry Little People"
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#85 Jul 04 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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People here say you're stupid
Alma's not stupid.






He's retarded.
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#86 Jul 05 2013 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
reminds me of "12 Angry Men"...


Reminds me more of "12 Angry Little People"


I guess people think that only the media brings in bias..Smiley: rolleyes
#87 Jul 05 2013 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Everyone is biased all the time. It can't be helped. Deal with it.



Edited, Jul 5th 2013 5:36pm by Elinda
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#88 Jul 05 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Everyone is biased all the time. It can be helped. Deal with it.

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#89 Jul 05 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Blackmail and death threats makes sure they are not biased.*








* and by that I mean biased in your favour.
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#90 Jul 05 2013 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sympathetic toward Martin because he's the one that's dead.

Zimmerman thought he had a gun in his hoodie pocket. It was a packet of Skittles.
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#91 Jul 05 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
I'm sympathetic toward Martin because he's the one that's dead.

Zimmerman thought he had a gun in his hoodie pocket. It was a packet of Skittles.


Maybe those skittles were laced with cyanide? According to Gbaji, "he was up to no good", so there must have been some form of evidence on him to support committing a crime.

For clarification: I'm not saying that he wasn't about to commit a crime, just saying that unless there's evidence to support that claim, it's highly unlikely.
#92 Jul 05 2013 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.


He's totally guilty. It's just hard to prove that it wasn't self defense, given the only other witness is dead. Methinks if their roles were reversed Martin would already have been convicted.

However, Florida.
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#93 Jul 05 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
People are choosing to take the time to consider whether or not race could be a factor because, shocker, racism is still alive in our culture and it needs to be examined if this could have been a case of racially-motivated profiling.


Sure. Examine away. Problem is that people aren't "examining" in order to determine if race was a factor, but rather "assuming" it was and proceeding from there.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is that Zimmerman profiled Martin as being a potential threat to the neighborhood.


False. That not only is not a "fact", but is directly disputed by the actual fact that Zimmerman did not know the race of the "suspicious person" he saw when he made the call to police. BTW, what you just said is what I mean by people assuming that race was a factor.

Quote:
If his race was a factor, it's relevant. If his race wasn't a factor, it's not relevant.


Correct. And I'm saying that it wasn't a factor, and therefore should not be relevant, but a whole lot of people keep claiming it's a factor.

Quote:
The only way you can find out if it was a factor is to examine that at trial.


Or, I don't know, listen to the phone call where it's abundantly clear that Zimmerman didn't know the skin color of the person he was calling the police to report until well into the phone call itself.

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Why is that a difficult concept for you?


Kinda asking you the same thing here.

Edited, Jul 5th 2013 5:54pm by gbaji
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#94 Jul 05 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
If Martin ran away, then there is no way that Zimmerman could have caught him without running after Martin.


Unless Martin doubled back and attacked Zimmerman as he was heading back to his vehicle exactly as Zimmerman claimed happened. It's not like we even have to go far to look for a way for this to have happened. It's being told to us by the defendant. You have a strange idea of what "no way" means.

But as long as we're tossing out hyperbole, it's far more reasonable to say that there was "no way" for Zimmerman to have caught Martin at all unless Martin stopped running and/or turned and went back the way he came. And, as I pointed out a few posts back, the location where the fight (and shooting occurred) does not make any sense if Martin was actually continuing to move in a straight line towards home. Even if we speculated that Martin slowed down to a walk after initially losing Zimmerman, the only way they end out encountering each other where they did is if Martin doubled back. If Zimmerman had somehow caught up with Martin while Martin was heading straight home, the shooting should have occurred at the opposite end of the row of houses from where it was.

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I'm being as unbiased as I can, but you are obviously bigoted towards Zimmerman.


You also have an odd definition of "unbiased". I'm just looking at the facts here. We can speculate about motivation all day long, but the fact is that Martin fled away (running) from Zimmerman in a direction that headed him (more or less) in a straight line towards his home. Zimmerman followed him (at best at a brisk walk based on the sounds on the police recording), and thus was behind him. While there are a few different specific routes Martin could have taken to get home from the point where he ran from Zimmerman, there's no real "short cut" to be had. He either runs down the street Zimmerman's parked on, or goes across the complex a bit and down a path between the houses (which includes the back entrance of his home), or continues across to the next street and goes down that street (which is where the front of his home is).

All three paths are more or less parallel. Also, the distance from where Zimmerman's car was and where the shooting occurred is somewhere around 100 feet (and perhaps another 150-200 feet from the Martin home). It's just hard to look at the maps and figure out any way that Zimmerman could have encountered Martin where he did if Martin was actually heading towards his home the whole time. Either Martin doubled back, or he hid somewhere along the route. It's just that there's not enough distance between where they both started from and the shooting location to justify the kind of "pursuit" that some people seem to keep trying to insist happened. ****. Zimmerman was probably past the T intersection (just north of the shooting) before ending the call to the police. It's that short of a distance.

The physical location of the shooting just doesn't add up to Martin simply heading home. It *does* add up to Martin either hiding and then confronting Zimmerman, or doubling back. I suppose for completeness we could include Martin hiding and Zimmerman finding him as well. Again though *all* of those scenarios completely discount the girlfriends testimony. She claimed that Martin continued to move and headed towards home the entire time. If that was the case, it's hard to figure out how the **** Zimmerman could have caught up with him. Doubly so when we consider the length of the phone call in question. There's not enough distance traveled for the events as portrayed by the girlfriend to have happened.


Quote:
No. He chased him. You can't meet up with a running person simply by "following" him.


Sigh. Again, there's no way he ran Martin down. Not only is it unlikely given the relative age and physical capabilities of the two, but there's just not enough distance involved. It would be like you walking past me, then starting to run away from me about 30 feet away, then I get out of my car, and run after you, and somehow catch up with you 70 feet further away. I'd have to be the most amazing track star in the world to do that, and Zimmerman isn't a track star. Also, we know that Zimmerman was not running. He was at best walking quickly because he continues his conversation with the police for another 15-20 seconds after getting out of his car. And at that pace, he likely was still fairly close to where the shooting ultimately occurred when he ended the call.

There's just too much time and not enough distance for this to have anything remotely like a straight pursuit.

Quote:
The fact that he had a concealed weapon is relevant because it was that weapon that killed him. If he had drawn the weapon, as a Police officer would have done, what would have been the result? Neither of us know, but I doubt it would have been the same.


Um... he would have been charged with a felony. Do you know anything about concealed weapon laws? He's not allowed to show it to anyone in public. He's not allowed to brandish it. He's not allowed to threaten anyone with it. He can't say "I have a gun!", even if he's faced with someone trying to mug him. He is allowed to use it in self defense or to prevent a forcible felony. That's it. So while we can speculate that had he brandished his firearm, Martin might have chosen to do something other than attack him, but that would be specifically in violation of the law. Martin's supposed to not attack other people because it's the wrong thing to do, not because they have the ability to hurt or kill him if he does. The very suggestion you're making kinda suggests that I'm right. If things would have ended differently if Zimmerman had openly revealed his gun, it would only have been because Martin would have made different decisions in that situation. Um... Which is basically saying that Martin did cause the physical encounter and Zimmerman was thus justified to use his weapon in self defense.

Quote:
The neighbor was not chasing you.


The neighbor chased me just as much (moreso actually) than Zimmerman chased Martinn. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin walked towards him, then past him, then ran into the complex. Zimmerman was still in the car when Martin ran. Zimmerman didn't get out of his car and confront Martin while he was heading towards him. He didn't do so as he passed him. He only followed him *after* he ran.

In my case, the neighbor approached me. As in, I got out of my car, and as I walked towards my friends house, he walked up directly to me and started asking me questions about who I was and why I was there. It was at night, no one else was around, and I can only assume he was walking around the complex looking for anyone who he didn't know so as to accost them about why they were there. And it never once occurred to me to run from him, or to attack him.

Quote:
As I stated, if Zimmerman asked him the same questions outside of his girlfriends house, none of that would have happened. At most, it would have been a "Eff you" with a middle finger.


Zimmerman did nothing but sit in his car though. It was only after Martin started running that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him to see where he went. There's no indication at all that he was "chasing" Martin.

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Mistake on the usage of words. I'm fully aware of that, that's why I asked you if you would get out of sight. If he were following you, then he would have moved to be in your sight again.


Except that he wasn't being followed. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin began running away before Zimmerman got out of his car. Martin ran, not because he was being followed, but because he saw someone sitting in a car watching him and talking on his phone. That's it. This isn't a question of someone following you, so you get nervous and decide to run and hide. This is a case of you walking down the street, seeing someone sitting in a car on the side of the street talking on a cell phone, and deciding to flee from that person.

So no. I would not "get out of sight". I'd continue walking towards my destination. I'd only worry if the person did get out of the car and started heading towards me. And even then it would be more of just being aware that there's someone there just on the off chance that he is some deranged serial killer. And if I did get so worried about him that I'd run home, I'd actually run home. If you're scared of someone and have clear path to run home (and it's like 200 feet away max), you run. But you wait until you know there's a reason to be scared. Martin ran away from a man sitting in his car. But only far enough to get out of sight, at which point he either hid or doubled back. That's not the behavior of someone who thinks he's being stalked by a killer and home is a couple hundred feet away.

Quote:
Once again. He did not "follow" him. He chased him. If he wanted to follow him to ensure that he didn't "get away", then he would have stayed in his car and followed him via car.


Except that Martin moved off the road and onto a pathway between the homes. Can't follow him in a car. It's quite reasonable for Zimmerman to have followed Martin through that walkway area. In the area, he could see if he went down the row, or out to the street on the other side. If he takes his car around the long way, there's too many directions Martin could go. The locations actually do match Zimmerman's story quite nicely. If I were trying to see where someone ran, I'd go to about where he was as well (and perhaps walk a short distance in each direction from the T intersection to have the best chance of spotting someone).

You really should go look up some of the maps of the complex. Some of them are full of speculations about where things were and when, and there are lots of opinions, but at the very least it gives you an idea of where Zimmerman's car was (approximately. there's some disagreement on this), where the club house was, where the entrance was, and where the shooting was. Once you do this and start looking at the actual locations and distances involved, the holes in the "Martin was just a scared kid trying to get home" theory start to get pretty large.

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#95 Jul 05 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji,

If he had a crowbar, some spray paint and other tools, you and everyone on his defense would say "He was about to commit a crime. Why else would he have those tools?" Am I right?

Unless Martin doubled back and attacked Zimmerman as he was heading back to his vehicle exactly as Zimmerman claimed happened. It's not like we even have to go far to look for a way for this to have happened. It's being told to us by the defendant. You have a strange idea of what "no way" means.

But as long as we're tossing out hyperbole, it's far more reasonable to say that there was "no way" for Zimmerman to have caught Martin at all unless Martin stopped running and/or turned and went back the way he came. And, as I pointed out a few posts back, the location where the fight (and shooting occurred) does not make any sense if Martin was actually continuing to move in a straight line towards home. Even if we speculated that Martin slowed down to a walk after initially losing Zimmerman, the only way they end out encountering each other where they did is if Martin doubled back. If Zimmerman had somehow caught up with Martin while Martin was heading straight home, the shooting should have occurred at the opposite end of the row of houses from where it was.


Doubling back doesn't negate Zimmerman running towards him.

1. If Martin ran away, then he expressed not wanting to get involved, or he would have stayed there or ran towards him. It makes absolutely no sense to run away from him then all of the sudden run towards him. That might have happened, but doesn't seem logical.

2. A more logical explanation (assuming that Zimmerman got jumped) is that Zimmerman continued to chase him, even after losing sight, then got jumped when he got near Martin.

3. If Zimmerman "lost" sight of Martin, then that means that there were some good amount of distance between them. It would have taken Martin the same amount of time + the distance from where he took off to catch up with Zimmerman. If it were only a "briefly pursue", then Zimmerman should have safely returned to his car before Martin arrived.

4. What was Zimmerman doing before he got jumped? Could he not hear him running towards him? If it were only a "brief pursue", it would have taken Martin awhile to turn around catch him. So what was Zimmerman doing the whole time? Just casually walking with his head down?

5. Given the fact that he was told not to go after Martin and he did anyway, knowing the distance between them, it is out of character for Zimmerman to just "give up" and idly walk back to his car.

The neighbor chased me just as much (moreso actually) than Zimmerman chased Martinn. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin walked towards him, then past him, then ran into the complex. Zimmerman was still in the car when Martin ran. Zimmerman didn't get out of his car and confront Martin while he was heading towards him. He didn't do so as he passed him. He only followed him *after* he ran.

In my case, the neighbor approached me. As in, I got out of my car, and as I walked towards my friends house, he walked up directly to me and started asking me questions about who I was and why I was there. It was at night, no one else was around, and I can only assume he was walking around the complex looking for anyone who he didn't know so as to accost them about why they were there. And it never once occurred to me to run from him, or to attack him.
....
Zimmerman did nothing but sit in his car though. It was only after Martin started running that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him to see where he went. There's no indication at all that he was "chasing" Martin.



Read above. Those 5 comments contradict the belief that Zimmerman stayed at his car. You're also bypassing the point that if Zimmerman was "picking up his mail", while asking Martin questions, as his girlfriend's neighbor, none of that would have happened. The point being that obviously Zimmerman was acting just as suspicious as Martin was or he wouldn't have known that Zimmerman was watching him from his car. There's nothing suspicious about checking your mail or walking the dog with the wife. There are a ton of scenarios where Zimmerman could have confronted Martin without any suspicion, unless you believe that Martin was just plum crazy running away from people in parked cars. If the latter is true, then Zimmerman again was looking for trouble. What do you expect to happen when chasing a crazy person?

You also have an odd definition of "unbiased". I'm just looking at the facts here. We can speculate about motivation all day long, but the fact is that Martin fled away (running) from Zimmerman in a direction that headed him (more or less) in a straight line towards his home. Zimmerman followed him (at best at a brisk walk based on the sounds on the police recording), and thus was behind him. While there are a few different specific routes Martin could have taken to get home from the point where he ran from Zimmerman, there's no real "short cut" to be had. He either runs down the street Zimmerman's parked on, or goes across the complex a bit and down a path between the houses (which includes the back entrance of his home), or continues across to the next street and goes down that street (which is where the front of his home is).

All three paths are more or less parallel. Also, the distance from where Zimmerman's car was and where the shooting occurred is somewhere around 100 feet (and perhaps another 150-200 feet from the Martin home). It's just hard to look at the maps and figure out any way that Zimmerman could have encountered Martin where he did if Martin was actually heading towards his home the whole time. Either Martin doubled back, or he hid somewhere along the route. It's just that there's not enough distance between where they both started from and the shooting location to justify the kind of "pursuit" that some people seem to keep trying to insist happened. ****. Zimmerman was probably past the T intersection (just north of the shooting) before ending the call to the police. It's that short of a distance.

The physical location of the shooting just doesn't add up to Martin simply heading home. It *does* add up to Martin either hiding and then confronting Zimmerman, or doubling back. I suppose for completeness we could include Martin hiding and Zimmerman finding him as well. Again though *all* of those scenarios completely discount the girlfriends testimony. She claimed that Martin continued to move and headed towards home the entire time. If that was the case, it's hard to figure out how the **** Zimmerman could have caught up with him. Doubly so when we consider the length of the phone call in question. There's not enough distance traveled for the events as portrayed by the girlfriend to have happened.

.....

Sigh. Again, there's no way he ran Martin down. Not only is it unlikely given the relative age and physical capabilities of the two, but there's just not enough distance involved. It would be like you walking past me, then starting to run away from me about 30 feet away, then I get out of my car, and run after you, and somehow catch up with you 70 feet further away. I'd have to be the most amazing track star in the world to do that, and Zimmerman isn't a track star. Also, we know that Zimmerman was not running. He was at best walking quickly because he continues his conversation with the police for another 15-20 seconds after getting out of his car. And at that pace, he likely was still fairly close to where the shooting ultimately occurred when he ended the call.

There's just too much time and not enough distance for this to have anything remotely like a straight pursuit.


Maybe you should look up the word bias. I'm unbiased in the fact that I'm recognizing that both parties are at some fault and that the shooting could or could not have been justified. You refuse to acknowledge any fault towards Zimmerman and proposing only stories that justifies the shooting. That my friend is biased.

Um... he would have been charged with a felony. Do you know anything about concealed weapon laws? He's not allowed to show it to anyone in public. He's not allowed to brandish it. He's not allowed to threaten anyone with it. He can't say "I have a gun!", even if he's faced with someone trying to mug him. He is allowed to use it in self defense or to prevent a forcible felony. That's it. So while we can speculate that had he brandished his firearm, Martin might have chosen to do something other than attack him, but that would be specifically in violation of the law. Martin's supposed to not attack other people because it's the wrong thing to do, not because they have the ability to hurt or kill him if he does. The very suggestion you're making kinda suggests that I'm right. If things would have ended differently if Zimmerman had openly revealed his gun, it would only have been because Martin would have made different decisions in that situation. Um... Which is basically saying that Martin did cause the physical encounter and Zimmerman was thus justified to use his weapon in self defense.


That's only true in a made up scenario that's bigoted towards Zimmerman. Based off his disregard to the dispatcher, you can't paint Zimmerman as a 100% law abiding citizen. That wasn't breaking the law, but it shows a blatant display of not listening. That's also ignoring his criminal history.

In any case, the point that Martin would have behaved differently with a drawn weapon and the fact that only authorized personnel (i.e. the police) can wave their fire arm around only supports the argument that Zimmerman should have gone back in his car and listened to the dispatcher. Zimmerman went looking for trouble! That doesn't make him guilty, but you can't deny the fault of him for chasing Martin, the same way you can't deny the fault of Martin for running.

Except that he wasn't being followed. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin began running away before Zimmerman got out of his car. Martin ran, not because he was being followed, but because he saw someone sitting in a car watching him and talking on his phone. That's it. This isn't a question of someone following you, so you get nervous and decide to run and hide. This is a case of you walking down the street, seeing someone sitting in a car on the side of the street talking on a cell phone, and deciding to flee from that person.

So no. I would not "get out of sight". I'd continue walking towards my destination. I'd only worry if the person did get out of the car and started heading towards me. And even then it would be more of just being aware that there's someone there just on the off chance that he is some deranged serial killer. And if I did get so worried about him that I'd run home, I'd actually run home. If you're scared of someone and have clear path to run home (and it's like 200 feet away max), you run. But you wait until you know there's a reason to be scared. Martin ran away from a man sitting in his car. But only far enough to get out of sight, at which point he either hid or doubled back. That's not the behavior of someone who thinks he's being stalked by a killer and home is a couple hundred feet away.


Are you suggesting that Martin ran away from every person sitting in a car on the phone? Is it too hard to believe that Zimmerman was just as suspicious as Martin was, sitting there in a parked car?In any case, you admitted to getting out of sight. Except your reaction was more reasonable. I've admitted that Martin prematurely ran, but he was right in his suspicion. That doesn't make Martin any more guilty than Zimmerman chasing trouble.

As stated, if Martin was THAT suspicious, then Zimmerman knowingly went towards trouble. You keep subscribing to Martin being "Crazy" for thinking that some random guy in a parked car is some killer when in fact Zimmerman killed him. Regardless or not he was in the car, Zimmerman was following him. That's why he got out of the car not to lose sight of him. If he weren't following him, he would have stayed in his car. He didn't get out of his car before Martin ran because he was still in Zimmerman's eye sight. Again, just because Martin was smart enough to realize Zimmerman's suspicious, doesn't make him crazy.


Except that Martin moved off the road and onto a pathway between the homes. Can't follow him in a car. It's quite reasonable for Zimmerman to have followed Martin through that walkway area. In the area, he could see if he went down the row, or out to the street on the other side. If he takes his car around the long way, there's too many directions Martin could go. The locations actually do match Zimmerman's story quite nicely. If I were trying to see where someone ran, I'd go to about where he was as well (and perhaps walk a short distance in each direction from the T intersection to have the best chance of spotting someone).

You really should go look up some of the maps of the complex. Some of them are full of speculations about where things were and when, and there are lots of opinions, but at the very least it gives you an idea of where Zimmerman's car was (approximately. there's some disagreement on this), where the club house was, where the entrance was, and where the shooting was. Once you do this and start looking at the actual locations and distances involved, the holes in the "Martin was just a scared kid trying to get home" theory start to get pretty large.


You didn't address the point made. Zimmerman was looking for trouble. He would have been safe staying in his car, with his weapon on the phone with 911. He didn't do anything wrong by chasing Martin, but what did you expect to happen when meeting Martin? Do you think a fleeing person "who was about to commit a crime" will just shake your hand and say "you got me!". He knew the danger and went forward.

Zimmerman could have followed Martin in his car. Losing sight doesn't negate the action of following. If I were Zimmerman, I wouldn't have gotten out of my car to chase him. Would you? Especially if he's so "out of shape" as you say. If he were "out of shape", then he wouldn't have chased him. He obviously thought that he could handle the situation even though he was told that his assistance wasn't necessary.

It wasn't Martin's complex, given the emotion that he was in, it is possible that he just started to run. With Zimmerman knowing the area presumably better than Martin, it is possible that Zimmerman cut him off. If Martin turned around and started running after him, at what point does Zimmerman start to feel threatened? Why didn't he pull out his gun BEFORE Martin caught up with him? I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but it would make less sense that Zimmerman stood there, trembling in his boots with his loaded weapon, as Martin ran towards him.

As I said, I think Zimmerman caught up with him and started fighting him. Martin took a couple of hits and then somehow got the upper hand. Zimmerman lost control of the fight and killed Martin before anyone saw the "Neighborhood watch" get his @$$ beat by a "punk". I have no idea if that's how it happened, but that seems more logical than any other presented story and it gives fault to both parties.

#96 Jul 05 2013 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
gbaji.....You keep subscribing to Martin being "Crazy" for thinking that some random guy in a parked car is some killer when in fact Zimmerman killed him.

He has a point.
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#97gbaji, Posted: Jul 09 2013 at 5:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Again. Not possible if Martin was actually heading home the entire time. You need to drop this assumption that there was a pursuit the entire time. The location of the shooting perfectly supports the claim that Zimmerman lost Martin and stayed in the area where he lost sight of him and then ran into him again in that area several minutes later. It absolutely does *not* support the claim that Martin continued to walk home and Zimmerman some how caught up to him and engaged him in a fight. There's too much time and not enough distance.
#98 Jul 09 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Correct. It makes no sense at all. If we assume that Martin's only objective was to avoid Zimmerman. Drop that assumption and things start making sense.


I'm going to assume his only goal was to escape danger.

If that meant he felt he had to run away, okay.

If he felt that it meant attacking the guy who had been trailing him in his truck, then got out of the truck to trail him on foot, okay.
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#99 Jul 09 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
1. If Martin ran away, then he expressed not wanting to get involved, or he would have stayed there or ran towards him. It makes absolutely no sense to run away from him then all of the sudden run towards him. That might have happened, but doesn't seem logical.


Correct. It makes no sense at all. If we assume that Martin's only objective was to avoid Zimmerman. Drop that assumption and things start making sense.

Quote:
2. A more logical explanation (assuming that Zimmerman got jumped) is that Zimmerman continued to chase him, even after losing sight, then got jumped when he got near Martin.


Again, as I pointed out before, if this was the case, the shooting should have occurred at the south end of that sidewalk between the houses instead of the very north end (which is the end they both started at). Assuming that Martin was actually headed home the entire time as the girlfriend claimed. Which is why that claim is so suspect. It just doesn't fit with the physical locations involved.

Quote:
3. If Zimmerman "lost" sight of Martin, then that means that there were some good amount of distance between them. It would have taken Martin the same amount of time + the distance from where he took off to catch up with Zimmerman. If it were only a "briefly pursue", then Zimmerman should have safely returned to his car before Martin arrived.


Zimmerman has never claimed he went directly back to his car though. He said that he went through to the next street, looked around there, then came back to the T intersection, presumably looked around in that area briefly, and *then* headed towards his car. Plenty of time for Martin to have either doubled back or just been hiding in the area the whole time.

Quote:
4. What was Zimmerman doing before he got jumped? Could he not hear him running towards him? If it were only a "brief pursue", it would have taken Martin awhile to turn around catch him. So what was Zimmerman doing the whole time? Just casually walking with his head down?


Doesn't really matter. We can speculate what he was doing, but whatever it was, it *wasn't* pursuing Martin. If any sort of pursuit had actually occurred, the shooting would have occurred far to the south of where it happened. The bigger question is "What was Martin doing?" How on earth was he such a short distance away from the north end of the area if he was heading south towards home the entire time.

Quote:
5. Given the fact that he was told not to go after Martin and he did anyway, knowing the distance between them, it is out of character for Zimmerman to just "give up" and idly walk back to his car.


Then what do you think happened. Look, here's a timeline of events. Look at the map on the right. Martin walked along the street that goes south from the north entrance past the clubhouse (the one that winds through the complex), then took the north path into the area with the two rows of houses (running north south), with the walkway between them. See where his home is. See where the shooting occurred. Zimmerman's vehicle was parked somewhere on the street facing the direction Martin walked along that street (and with a view of the entrance to that street, so not down too far). He watched Martin walk towards him (which is the first part of the phone call). Then he watches Martin walk past him on the street. Then reports Martin running into the complex along that north path. He follows him.

Here's the problem: 2 minutes and 20 seconds pass between when Zimmerman dropped the call with police and he encountered Martin. And he drops that call 1 minute and 8 seconds *after* reporting that Martin is running. There is simply no way the shooting should have occurred where it did given that much time if Martin was just heading home the whole time and Zimmerman followed him and somehow "caught up" with him. It's simply not possible. There's not enough distance and way too much time. Even at just a normal walking pace, Martin should have been at home by the time shooting occurred.

There is no way Martin was walking directly home. Period. Instead of obsessing over what Zimmerman was doing, ask what Martin was doing. Zimmerman appears to have lingered in the north area of the walkways, kinda what you might expect someone to do if he lost sight of a suspicious person. But there's no explanation for Martin being there unless he either hid, or he doubled back for some reason. We can speculate about *why* he did that, but it's clear that he did. The physical location of the shooting doesn't allow for any other explanation.

Quote:
Read above. Those 5 comments contradict the belief that Zimmerman stayed at his car.


I never said he stayed at his car the whole time. I said that he was in his car *until* Martin ran. Didn't think I was unclear about that.

Quote:
The point being that obviously Zimmerman was acting just as suspicious as Martin was or he wouldn't have known that Zimmerman was watching him from his car.


Zimmerman was acting exactly like a member of a neighborhood watch. WTF? Remember. Martin ran *before* Zimmerman ever got out of his car.

Quote:
Maybe you should look up the word bias. I'm unbiased in the fact that I'm recognizing that both parties are at some fault and that the shooting could or could not have been justified. You refuse to acknowledge any fault towards Zimmerman and proposing only stories that justifies the shooting. That my friend is biased.


I'm not refusing to acknowledge any possibility. I'm looking at the facts of the case and assessing those possibilities. What I'm not doing is obsessing over one thing (OMG! Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin!) and ignoring all the other facts. That's what you are doing. Zimmerman getting out of his car is *not* justification for Martin to attack him. Nothing Zimmerman did justifies Martin ending out on top of him, pinning him to the ground and beating his face in. And that's where the self defense claim comes from. Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin because he was acting suspicious. He didn't shoot him because he ran from him. He didn't even shoot him because the two got into a physical altercation (regardless of who started it). He shot him because he found himself pinned to the ground with an assailant on top of him, beating him in the face, and showing no sign of stopping. And that condition was 100% the choice of Martin's. No matter what happened prior to that point Martin decided to straddle Zimmerman, pin him to the ground, and punch him in the face repeatedly.

Quote:
As stated, if Martin was THAT suspicious, then Zimmerman knowingly went towards trouble. You keep subscribing to Martin being "Crazy" for thinking that some random guy in a parked car is some killer when in fact Zimmerman killed him.


You miss the point. I'm saying that this would be crazy if it were true that Martin fled from Zimmerman because he thought Zimmerman was some kind of crazed killer or something. I'm not saying that Martin was crazy. I'm pointing out the flaw in the assumption being made by the other side. If I were to speculate, I would speculate that Martin *didn't* think Zimmerman was a scary potential killer. I think he believed that Zimmerman was exactly what he was: A member of the watch. And Martin realized that someone on the watch spotted him while he was poking around in the yards of houses along his route home. He ran to avoid "getting in trouble" for what he was doing. He didn't head directly home because he didn't want the watch guy seeing which home he was living in and "getting in trouble". So he went in a different direction, or hid. Then, for whatever reason, he decided to jump Zimmerman so as to prevent him from following him home. He may have thought if he beat up this nosy neighbor, he could get away and wouldn't get in trouble.

Does that makes sense? Not from a responsible adult point of view. But to some kid with a history of vandalism, psuedo-gang-banging, and fighting? It might just make complete sense. Doubly so when Martin is a 6 foot tall athletic teenager and Zimmerman looks like an easy target (5ft 9, kinda pudgy). Martin may have thought he could easily take the wanna-be cop and get him off his back. Did that happen? I don't know. But unlike you, I'm not discounting the possibility. And that possibility seems far more likely than the idea that Martin believed that Zimmerman was a crazed killer, and ran from him in fear for his life.

Regardless of why he did what he did, it's clear that Martin did *not* head directly home. So there was some reason he lingered in the area. We can speculate about why, but we really do have to abandon this silly idea that Martin was just trying to get home and Zimmerman chased him down and killed him. The evidence simply does not support that at all.

Quote:
As I said, I think Zimmerman caught up with him and started fighting him.


Again. Not possible if Martin was actually heading home the entire time. You need to drop this assumption that there was a pursuit the entire time. The location of the shooting perfectly supports the claim that Zimmerman lost Martin and stayed in the area where he lost sight of him and then ran into him again in that area several minutes later. It absolutely does *not* support the claim that Martin continued to walk home and Zimmerman some how caught up to him and engaged him in a fight. There's too much time and not enough distance.

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 4:19pm by gbaji


Gbaji,

If he had a crowbar, some spray paint and other tools, you and everyone on his defense would say "He was about to commit a crime. Why else would he have those tools?" Am I right?

I'll just address comments one by one since you have a tendency to avoid comments.
#100 Jul 10 2013 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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The Police dispatcher didn't just tell Zimmerman that "you don't need to [follow] him". The dispatcher flat out told Zimmerman to stay where he was so that the arriving police could talk to him, and when Zimmerman ignored that, the dispatcher asked if there was a front gate, and told Zimmerman several times to go to the front gate and meet the police cars there, instead of following [Martin]. The dispatcher stressed several times that the police would handle it from here, that the police cars were nearly there, and that Zimmerman ought to go meet the police as his next action.
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#101 Jul 10 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
The dispatcher flat out told Zimmerman to stay where he was so that the arriving police could talk to him, and when Zimmerman ignored that, the dispatcher asked if there was a front gate, and told Zimmerman several times to go to the front gate and meet the police cars there, instead of following [Martin].
None of that happened. The dispatcher said once that Zimmerman didn't need to follow, and then asked if he'd like to meet with the officers, making several suggestions of where to do so, and the call ended with Zimmerman giving them his phone number so the cops could call him when they were in the area.

The transcripts are available online.
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