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#152 Jul 11 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
My favorite part of this discussion is that there's no room in gbaji's mind to believe that Zimmerman wasn't protected by a self defense law...


Of course there's room for the possibility. The difference is that I'm not basing my assumptions on emotion or rhetoric, but looking at the facts that we can determine about what happened and how the law actually applies. I have repeatedly stated the precise conditions under which Zimmerman would not be protected by self defense law. Those conditions are:

1. He must have started the physical fight.

and

2. He must have had the opportunity to flee and chose not to.

I believe I stated that somewhere near the beginning of this thread. I have additionally backed that up with direct links to the law in question and quotes of the exact portions of that law from which I'm deriving those conditions. The problem is that instead of responding to those conditions which arguments that Zimmerman violated them, I've gotten a barrage of arguments like "But Zimmerman shouldn't have followed him!" and "Zimmerman shouldn't have had a gun in the first place", etc.

Either argue that I'm wrong about the conditions for self defense applying as I've stated them *or* argue that Zimmerman violated those conditions. If you want to argue about completely different things, that's fine, but then don't claim that your arguments somehow counter mine. Cause they don't.

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...and no room in his mind to even accept the chance that Martin was.


Except that I have directly addressed this exact question numerous times. Show me where in the law you are allowed to jump on top of someone, pin them to the ground, and pummel them in the face as a protected act of self defense. Can you do that? I've shown exactly how the law says that Zimmerman's act of pulling the trigger at the time he did, is covered by the law. If you want to argue that I'm treating them differently, then try showing how the law protects Martin's actions at the time Zimmerman fired.

Can you do that? If you can't, then perhaps it's *you* who are acting in an irrational and biased way. I'm just looking at the law and applying it to the facts as we know them. How are you deriving a position on the issue? Flipping a coin?

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 5:40pm by gbaji
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#153 Jul 11 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Those conditions are:

1. He must have started the physical fight.

and

2. He must have had the opportunity to flee and chose not to.


You left out the one where he is responsible for creating an environment where a fight breaking out is understandable.
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#154 Jul 11 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
As in, you don't chase after someone with a gun and get off scott-free because they fight back. The scenario you just painted allows any thug to get off of a murder charge by technicality that they fought back.


If by "fighting back" you mean allowing you to knock them to the ground, then hoping you jump on top of them, pin them to the ground, then wait while you punch them in the face a few times, breaking their nose, and *then* they get to shoot you and get off scott free? Cause if that's the requirement for there to be a problem, then I'm fine with it, given that those same laws also ensure that fewer thugs can just walk up to people and beat them up, knowing that they're completely safe because everyone is so afraid of being charged with murder if they use a concealed weapon to defend themselves, that they don't bother to carry them any more (even if the law allows it).

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Either you do exactly as you're told, or you give them the right to shoot you by resisting. Brilliant.


Alternative being: Either you carry a weapon to defend yourself and get charged with murder if you do, or you have to do exactly what you're told by any thug who's bigger and stronger than you are. Brilliant.

I'll take the right for people to carry and defend themselves every single time.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 6:06pm by gbaji
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#155 Jul 11 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
Those conditions are:

1. He must have started the physical fight.

and

2. He must have had the opportunity to flee and chose not to.


You left out the one where he is responsible for creating an environment where a fight breaking out is understandable.


Sorry. Could you point out in the law where that eliminates his right to self defense?

The law covers him in this case even if he started the fight (assuming "being pinned to the ground" meets the 2nd condition). But you're going to argue that it doesn't cover him because he "created an environment"? Seriously?

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 6:04pm by gbaji
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#156 Jul 11 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Except that I have directly addressed this exact question numerous times. Show me where in the law you are allowed to jump on top of someone, pin them to the ground, and pummel them in the face as a protected act of self defense. Can you do that? I've shown exactly how the law says that Zimmerman's act of pulling the trigger at the time he did, is covered by the law. If you want to argue that I'm treating them differently, then try showing how the law protects Martin's actions at the time Zimmerman fired.

But did Martin jump on top of Zimmerman and start beating on him. What if the scenario is that they were wrestling around with each other and Martin managed to get on top? Does the person committing assault depend on who happens to have the upper hand at the time? If your adrenaline is pumping, I think it is rather unlikely that you would suddenly stop if you get the upper hand and be like "Oops, I better stop swinging now. Its assault until he gets me on my back again"
#157 Jul 11 2013 at 11:13 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:

Isn't that the point of this whole thing? To discuss whether it was justified? I mean, the jury's going to have to make that exact decision, right? Sidestepping the core issue is kinda pointless, isn't it?
....

Um... At the risk of bursting your bubble we know that Martin was committing a crime. Let me remind you: I'm talking about Zimmerman shooting Martin, not Zimmerman following Martin into the complex. Zimmerman isn't on trial for following someone. He's on trial for shooting someone.


You're avoiding my point. I'm not discussing the shooting, but your labeling of Martin as a criminal BEFORE any action of the two had taken place. You're the one who insists that Martin was about to commit a crime, so what evidence do you have to support that claim?


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#158 Jul 12 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can't understand why it's legit to defend yourself from a would be attack with a gun but criminal to defend with self with your own bodily power.

I suspect it has something to do with the color of your skin.
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#159 Jul 12 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't get good at hitting targets so I had to chase people.
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#160 Jul 12 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I didn't get good at hitting targets so I had to chase people.


But the chase is the thrill of the hunt.
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#161 Jul 12 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I didn't get good at hitting targets so I had to chase people.
But the chase is the thrill of the hunt.
"Hunt" is just a political accepted euphemism for "chase." Smiley: motz
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#162 Jul 12 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
I can't understand why it's legit to defend yourself from a would be attack with a gun but criminal to defend with self with your own bodily power.

I suspect it has something to do with the color of your skin.

I suspect it hasn't come up since that person is dead. If Martin lives and faces assault charges for a fistfight I'd presume it'd be brought up at that point.
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#163 Jul 12 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
I can't understand why it's legit to defend yourself from a would be attack with a gun but criminal to defend with self with your own bodily power.

I suspect it has something to do with the color of your skin.

I suspect it hasn't come up since that person is dead. If Martin lives and faces assault charges for a fistfight I'd presume it'd be brought up at that point.
gbaji was claiming that Martin's actions were criminal. Zimmerman's, of course, were quite rational and lawful. Smiley: rolleyes
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#164 Jul 12 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
I can't understand why it's legit to defend yourself from a would be attack with a gun but criminal to defend with self with your own bodily power.

I suspect it has something to do with the color of your skin.

I suspect it hasn't come up since that person is dead. If Martin lives and faces assault charges for a fistfight I'd presume it'd be brought up at that point.
gbaji was claiming that Martin's actions were criminal. Zimmerman's, of course, were quite rational and lawful. Smiley: rolleyes
I'm assuming he's taking Zimmerman's story at face value? Something like:

Quote:
According to an Orlando Sentinel story later confirmed by Sanford police, Zimmerman tells authorities that, after Zimmerman briefly lost track of Martin, the teen approached him. After the two exchange words, Zimmerman says, he reaches for his cell phone, and then Martin punches him in the nose. Zimmerman says Martin pins him to the ground and begins slamming his head into the sidewalk.


in which case there'd be no real case of self-defense for Martin? He says, she says kind of thing.
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#165 Jul 12 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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It's a huge crime to walk through a nice neighborhood with skittles and tea while black, don't you know.
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#166 Jul 12 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Too bad you can't arrest someone for not having proper hindsight, I guess.
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#167 Jul 12 2013 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
It's a huge crime to walk through a nice neighborhood with skittles and tea while black, don't you know.
I don't know if Zimmerman's really breaking any laws though. He may well be a reprehensible, bigoted human being, but unfortunately we don't have a law against that. If he was a real police officer and not just pretending to be one, he'd be getting into all kinds of problems for racial profiling and what not; seems like there's a decent case for that.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you couldn't get in trouble for racial profiling as a normal citizen? I mean, denying services or something for sure is a no-no, but if you have a bad habit of calling the cops when you see a black person the worst they're going to hit you with is abusing the 911 system?

I don't know, I don't see how he gets convicted here. Maybe some kind of recklessness/negligence and manslaughter certainly seems possible. Maybe I'm wrong but Zimmerman just seems like an @#%^, which again, for better or for worse is still legal.
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#168 Jul 12 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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What seems apparent to me is that Zimmerman created a situation in which he had to defend himself. He had to have felt empowered knowing he had is gun as protection. Presumably if he'd not had the gun, he'd have felt vulnerable, not empowered. His actions would have likely reflected this in that he'd not have likely gone following after some neighborhood kid.

Zimmerman and his gun created this situation. Martin wasn't at all culpable in setting up the scenario. What's sad is there is nothing stopping all the other Zimmermans in the world from doing the same.
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#169 Jul 12 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
He may well be a reprehensible, bigoted human being, but unfortunately we don't have a law against that.

We will if Proposition 14 passes!

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 12:16pm by Jophiel
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#170 Jul 12 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
He may well be a reprehensible, bigoted human being, but unfortunately we don't have a law against that.

We will if Proposition 14 passes!

Has my vote. Smiley: grin

Though it would make life here a little more tame...
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#171 Jul 12 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Catwho wrote:
It's a huge crime to walk through a nice neighborhood with skittles and tea while black, don't you know.
I don't know if Zimmerman's really breaking any laws though. He may well be a reprehensible, bigoted human being, but unfortunately we don't have a law against that. If he was a real police officer and not just pretending to be one, he'd be getting into all kinds of problems for racial profiling and what not; seems like there's a decent case for that.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you couldn't get in trouble for racial profiling as a normal citizen? I mean, denying services or something for sure is a no-no, but if you have a bad habit of calling the cops when you see a black person the worst they're going to hit you with is abusing the 911 system?

I don't know, I don't see how he gets convicted here. Maybe some kind of recklessness/negligence and manslaughter certainly seems possible. Maybe I'm wrong but Zimmerman just seems like an @#%^, which again, for better or for worse is still legal.


Profiling is a key component of a hate crime, so it's certainly something a citizen can get in trouble for. Which is why the prosecution is painting the picture of Zimmerman threatening Martin based on his race. If he had stayed in his car and just have called the police because he saw a black kid walking around, he'd be an @#%^, but not a criminal.
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#172 Jul 12 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Profiling is a key component of a hate crime, so it's certainly something a citizen can get in trouble for. Which is why the prosecution is painting the picture of Zimmerman threatening Martin based on his race. If he had stayed in his car and just have called the police because he saw a black kid walking around, he'd be an @#%^, but not a criminal.
Not that I'd accuse myself of being in the loop or anything, but I wasn't aware they were prosecuting this as a hate crime.

I see some "may consider charging him with it" back from May...
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#173 Jul 12 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Prosecution is essentially throwing spaghetti against a wall and hoping it sticks because neither side has an airtight case, and a tie is a win for Zimmerman.
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#174 Jul 12 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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I suppose bigotry, at the hateful level, would lend it'self to motive. Motive determines if it was a crime or self-defense.
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#175 Jul 12 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Prosecution is essentially throwing spaghetti against a wall and hoping it sticks because neither side has an airtight case, and a tie is a win for Zimmerman.
Now that you brought it up, I bet this makes the inevitable civil lawsuit a lot more interesting since the burden of proof is lower. Smiley: rolleyes

Never ending dramas... Smiley: popcorn
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#176 Jul 12 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Essentially.

For instance, Zimmerman's lawyers are claiming he's protected by Stand Your Ground, which we all know is meant to protect people from harm if they defend themselves against someone committing a felony.

Except the people who wrote the law say it doesn't apply to Zimmerman because it only functions if you have the ability to run. Zimmerman's lawyers are saying that the law protects him, because Zimmerman had reason to fear severe bodily harm or death. But if the scenario he paints is true, then the law doesn't protect him, because it's so terribly written.

And then that opens up a whole OTHER can of worms - was Zimmerman pinned the whole time, or were they rolling around? If SYG did apply, was Zimmerman committing a crime at the time by threatening Martin with a gun? Etc.

You can pretty much repeat that kind of crap for every aspect of the case.
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#177 Jul 12 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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it'self


I've seen a lot of apostrophe abuse over the years, but this is just egregious.

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#178 Jul 12 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
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it'self


I've seen a lot of apostrophe abuse over the years, but this is just egregious.


Smiley: lol Does it burnnnnnn?!

It's hardly my worst typo on this board.
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#179 Jul 12 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And then that opens up a whole OTHER can of worms - was Zimmerman pinned the whole time, or were they rolling around? If SYG did apply, was Zimmerman committing a crime at the time by threatening Martin with a gun? Etc.

You can pretty much repeat that kind of crap for every aspect of the case.
So then essentially what lolgaxe said?
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#181 Jul 12 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Bets? I'm going with less than 50 posts.
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#182 Jul 12 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bets?

Kao rambles something about sock puppets and bad people, and how we should know better.
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#185 Jul 12 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And then that opens up a whole OTHER can of worms - was Zimmerman pinned the whole time, or were they rolling around? If SYG did apply, was Zimmerman committing a crime at the time by threatening Martin with a gun? Etc.

You can pretty much repeat that kind of crap for every aspect of the case.
So then essentially what lolgaxe said?


Yeah, that post was supposed to start with the quote from his post. Oops.
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#186 Jul 12 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Does this mean I can pummel the next scary looking bum who comes up begging for money?

I think you should. You know she's just asking for it.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, that post was supposed to start with the quote from his post. Oops.

Smiley: lol

Okay, life makes more sense now.
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#187 Jul 12 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Bets? I'm going with less than 50 posts.
Last one got to 4.
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#189 Jul 12 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Guaranteed response.
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#191 Jul 12 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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I'm officially disappointed he didn't go with southfloridaplaya
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#192 Jul 12 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Bets? I'm going with less than 50 posts.
Last one got to 4.


5 and counting, does he get a cookie or something at this point?

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 11:31am by someproteinguy
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#193 Jul 12 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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I think that just means that Kao is too busy looking for a new job.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 8:41pm by Aethien
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#195 Jul 12 2013 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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#196 Jul 12 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriously, the kid was on his way to being the next Marshawn Lynch. Need to nip these things in the bud. Smiley: disappointed
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#197 Jul 12 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I had $50 on 6 posts...

But yeah, apperently I need to do something more permanent about Mr. Viruswerd. Luckily, I know Comcast is pretty good about blocking terms of service violators upon request. And I "DO" actually feel rather like destroying something today for some reason...
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#198 Jul 12 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I had $50 on 6 posts...

But yeah, apperently I need to do something more permanent about Mr. Viruswerd. Luckily, I know Comcast is pretty good about blocking terms of service violators upon request. And I "DO" actually feel rather like destroying something today for some reason...


Might I suggest another bridge?

Maybe the one he's trolling under?
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#199 Jul 12 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
And I "DO" actually feel rather like destroying something today for some reason...
It's the skittles right?

Gotta lay off those things.
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#200 Jul 12 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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#201 Jul 12 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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I've found cheap smoke grenades can liven up any dower mood.
Sounds like a fun time.
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