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#52 Jul 03 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Wrong. They have every right to follow and question you. They don't have the *authority* to require you to stop and answer their questions though. The bigger point is that someone else following you does *not* give you the right to attack that person.


Sure it does, if they're going to attempt a felony. Like assault, say. Did you read the statute? It's a stupid law, but you absolutely have the right to use force, deadly force, even if it becomes clear to you that you're going to be assaulted. Again, this is the lynch pin of the guy you presumably want to see walk after following, confronting, and fatally shooting a kid in the chest. Try to at least be consistent. The black kid gets the benefit of the same laws these days, even in your 1980s time warp.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 6:00pm by Smasharoo
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#53 Jul 03 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't been following the trial too closely, but Zimmerman really doesn't seem to be doing himself any favors. He testified that he had never even heard of the stand your ground law... so they brought in his criminal justice professor who testified that they had spoken at length about it.

I just don't understand why he'd tell such an obvious lie.
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#54 Jul 03 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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#55 Jul 03 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I haven't been following the trial too closely, but Zimmerman really doesn't seem to be doing himself any favors. He testified that he had never even heard of the stand your ground law... so they brought in his criminal justice professor who testified that they had spoken at length about it.

I just don't understand why he'd tell such an obvious lie.



This is not a guy who thinks very well. Are you really surprised?

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#56 Jul 03 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Smash wrote:
Sure it does, if they're going to attempt a felony. Like assault, say. Did you read the statute? It's a stupid law, but you absolutely have the right to use force, deadly force, even if it becomes clear to you that you're going to be assaulted. Again, this is the lynch pin of the guy you presumably want to see walk after following, confronting, and fatally shooting a kid in the chest. Try to at least be consistent. The black kid gets the benefit of the same laws these days, even in your 1980s time warp.


I don't get how anyone can make an argument for Zimmerman that he is at no fault of anything. I can understand fighting the charge, but to argue that he is at no fault of what happened is absurd. Both parties made mistakes. Martin paid for it with his life, at least be fair and make Zimmerman get his fair share of punishment. Whatever that might be.

Gbaji wrote:
The dispatcher has no authority to tell Zimmerman what he can or cannot do. The dispatcher did not say "You can't follow him", or "It's against the law to follow him", or even "If you follow him and he attacks you, it'll be your fault". I can't find a transcript at the moment, but IIRC the dispatcher told him something like "We don't need you to do that". It's a CYA for the police. Zimmerman has every right to follow Martin if he wants to.


You're right, but it paints the scenario that someone trained addressed the situation and told Zimmerman the correct action to take. So the argument of "I didn't know what I was getting myself into" is invalid. At that point, he went looking for trouble.

Gbaji wrote:
But to argue that Zimmerman somehow committed some grave offense simply by following Martin and is therefor completely 100% responsible for everything that happened after that point is completely wrong.


That is an exaggeration. Both Zimmerman and Martin were responsible for what happened, but ultimately, if Zimmerman would have acted within his duties of a neighborhood watch, none of that would have happened.

Gbaji wrote:
But not beyond his right to do as a normal concerned citizen. You don't need police powers to walk up to someone and talk to them.


He didn't do that. He chased after a person with a loaded gun to "prevent a crime". That is police work.

Gbaji wrote:
I wouldn't run away though. I *have* been approached by the equivalent of the nosy neighbor in a complex before.


The fact that you said "neighbor", means that you already knew who that person was, maybe not personally, but you knew it was the neighbor. If Zimmerman were his girlfriend neighbor and he came out of his house to "pick up his mail" and questioned him, Martin probably wouldn't have ran either.

Now let's assume that you didn't know that the neighbor was the neighbor and he was in a car potentially following you as you were walking around? You wouldn't at least get out of sight? I call BS. You may not have ran, but you would duck behind some bushes or got behind some houses.

Gbaji wrote:
At some point, Martin saw Zimmerman in the car talking on his phone, but instead of just walking on by like a normal person, he ran away. Then Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him. You can clearly hear this on the recording of Zimmerman's phone call.


How is "walking away" like a "normal person"? I had the cops called on me for not doing anything wrong. I ran away. Why put yourself in a situation where you'll be confronted? That's how Zimmerman got himself in that situation.

Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal

If that is true, it only proves the point that Zimmerman was looking for trouble.

Gbaji wrote:
and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


Given the fact he had nothing on him to prove any guilt of anything else other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time, your speculation has no value. Not only was he on the phone with his Girlfriend, he had nothing on him to promote that he was about to do something. So, as much as you don't want to admit that he ran out of the suspicion of Zimmerman, nothing favors your speculation.

Furthermore, given the fact that Zimmerman got out of the car to chase him, only proves the point that it was not just some random guy sitting in a car. Just because he was smart enough to realize that he was being watched, doesn't make him a criminal.

Gbaji wrote:

Wrong. They have every right to follow and question you. They don't have the *authority* to require you to stop and answer their questions though. The bigger point is that someone else following you does *not* give you the right to attack that person.


That's right and fighting doesn't give you the right to kill.
.

Also remember, Martin RAN. If he wanted to fight, especially if he were a thug, he would have waved his glock and threatened him. By Martin running, that is an action of him not wanting to get involved. By Zimmerman chasing him, that is an action of him wanting to get involved.

Edited, Jul 4th 2013 1:03am by Almalieque
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#57 Jul 03 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:

Wrong. They have every right to follow and question you. They don't have the *authority* to require you to stop and answer their questions though. The bigger point is that someone else following you does *not* give you the right to attack that person.


Sure it does, if they're going to attempt a felony. Like assault, say. Did you read the statute?


Yes, I did. Did you? Let me refresh your memory:

Quote:
76.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.


Again, neither were in their home, so 776.013 does not apply. So are you arguing that Zimmerman following Martin represents a reasonable belief by Martin that he's in risk of "imminent death or great bodily harm", or to prevent the "imminent commission of a forcible felony"? The law does not allow you to speculate that someone might do something bad and then attack them first. It requires that a reasonable person should believe they were in imminent danger in that circumstance.

You're also repeating the same ridiculous double standard I spoke of earlier. So Martin is justified to use force, even deadly force, based merely on the fact that Zimmerman followed him, but Zimmerman is *not* justified to use deadly force when he's actually being pinned to the ground and punched in the face? That makes no sense at all. No reasonable person assumes they're in imminent risk of great bodily harm or death just because someone is following them. Most reasonable people would assume so once they're on their back and being punched in the face by an assailant.

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It's a stupid law, but you absolutely have the right to use force, deadly force, even if it becomes clear to you that you're going to be assaulted.


Sure. But it requires a reasonable belief that this will happen. I don't think being followed meets that criteria. You have a point *if* the jury believes that Zimmerman actually took a clear act against Martin that would indicate this, but even Martin's girlfriends testimony doesn't come close to proving that. I've acknowledged all along that if the jury believes that Zimmerman took the first aggressive act (throwing a punch, trying to grab Martin, etc, not just following him), then they have a chance with this. But again, it comes down the the later section of the law. If we assume that Zimmerman was the aggressor, this gives Martin the right to defend himself, but the moment he pinned Zimmerman down and continued attacking him, Martin became the attacker and Zimmerman now has the right to defend himself.

Put another way, if Zimmerman attempted to grab or otherwise attack Martin, and Martin was armed, Martin would be within his rights at that moment to pull out his weapon and shoot Zimmerman. That's the use of deadly force. But he can't punch Zimmerman with his fists, then get the upper hand in the fight, and then pin him and continue punching him. Remember that the use of deadly force is still restricted to that force which the person believes is necessary to protect him from great bodily harm or death or to prevent a forcible felony. Once he's knocked Zimmerman to the ground, he's no longer in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death and cannot continue to attack Zimmerman under a claim of self defense.


Quote:
Again, this is the lynch pin of the guy you presumably want to see walk after following, confronting, and fatally shooting a kid in the chest. Try to at least be consistent. The black kid gets the benefit of the same laws these days, even in your 1980s time warp.


It's funny because you (and a lot of people) keep trying really hard to inject race into this, and claim that those who defend Zimmerman do so out of some innate racial need to defend the white guy against the black guy. But it really looks like you're the one racially biased here. No matter how incredibly skewed the facts are, you can't drop the assumption that this must have been a case of white racism targeting a black teenager. You just can't see past the narrative of "white guy shoots black kid". It's an incredible case of projection on your part.

Remove the race of the two involved, and no one would be arguing that Zimmerman was guilty. Hell. If we reversed the races of the two, my position would be exactly the same, but you'd be arguing the opposite. So maybe you need to stop looking at this through race tinted glasses?
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#58 Jul 03 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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We're injecting race into it because race is part of it. Shocking.

Just like we're discussing whether or not Zimmerman following Martin is sufficiently threatening to be considered an act of aggression that voids the Stand Your Ground law. Shocking.

You know, instead of just assuming it doesn't and starting from there.
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#59 Jul 03 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
The dispatcher has no authority to tell Zimmerman what he can or cannot do. The dispatcher did not say "You can't follow him", or "It's against the law to follow him", or even "If you follow him and he attacks you, it'll be your fault". I can't find a transcript at the moment, but IIRC the dispatcher told him something like "We don't need you to do that". It's a CYA for the police. Zimmerman has every right to follow Martin if he wants to.


You're right, but it paints the scenario that someone trained addressed the situation and told Zimmerman the correct action to take. So the argument of "I didn't know what I was getting myself into" is invalid. At that point, he went looking for trouble.


No. It's pure CYA. Police dispatchers are trained to tell anyone on the other end of the phone line to not do *anything* and to wait for police to arrive on the scene. It's their automatic response to any action the person proposes because if they don't do that, they can be sued for not telling the person "we don't need you to do that" if that person gets hurt. It's about getting on record that the dispatcher did not tell the person to do something. Don't read anything more into it than that.

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That is an exaggeration. Both Zimmerman and Martin were responsible for what happened, but ultimately, if Zimmerman would have acted within his duties of a neighborhood watch, none of that would have happened.


At the end of the day, we have to weigh relative responsibility here. Zimmerman's responsibility for the outcome is no greater than any person walking through their own housing complex at night. Martin died because he pinned Zimmerman to the ground and beat him in the face with no sign of stopping. That's much more directly responsible for his death than the fact that Zimmerman was there to be pinned to the ground and beaten in the face. Don't you agree? You're trying to effectively blame the victim of a mugging for being mugged because if he hadn't walked down that street late at night, he wouldn't have been mugged. Then trying to blame him for shooting his mugger because he's somehow in the wrong for walking down a street late at night, knowing there's a possibility he might get mugged and then having the audacity to carry a concealed weapon just in case he is.

That's nutty thinking.

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He didn't do that. He chased after a person with a loaded gun to "prevent a crime". That is police work.


He followed someone. That he had a concealed weapon is irrelevant. There is no evidence he drew his weapon or made the presence of the weapon known until after he was pinned to the ground. His action is not made any more or less legal based on the presence of his weapon.

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Gbaji wrote:
I wouldn't run away though. I *have* been approached by the equivalent of the nosy neighbor in a complex before.


The fact that you said "neighbor", means that you already knew who that person was, maybe not personally, but you knew it was the neighbor.


Uh. No. I was at someone else's house (condo actually). I parked my car in one of the open spaces on the side of the complex and started walking towards my friends house, when this guy walked up and started asking me what I was doing in the complex, why I was there, which unit was I visiting, etc. I gave him the information and continued walking on. When I got to the friends house, I mentioned it and they kinda rolled their eyes because this particular guy was known to randomly wander around bugging people visiting the complex and to pay him no mind.

This is more or less the exact same scenario Martin found himself in, yet it never once occurred to me to flee this guy, or to be concerned about him. My immediate assumption was that he was someone who lived in the complex, and was part of the neighborhood watch (which they had, but he apparently wasn't part of it, but was just a busybody), and it was at worst a minor annoyance to me. The point is that Martin's reaction was ridiculously out of proportion to what Zimmerman was doing.

Quote:
Now let's assume that you didn't know that the neighbor was the neighbor and he was in a car potentially following you as you were walking around? You wouldn't at least get out of sight? I call BS. You may not have ran, but you would duck behind some bushes or got behind some houses.


First off. I know that this has been misreported at length, but at no point did Zimmerman follow Martin "in his car". His car was parked the whole time. Second, as I pointed out earlier, Martin did not flee when Zimmerman followed him. Martin fled as soon as he saw Martin sitting in his car talking on his cell phone. So let's put this in perspective. You're visiting a friend. You're walking alone back to that friends house through the complex at night. At some point, you realize there's someone sitting in a car on the side of the road talking on their cell phone. Do you run away to hide from this person, or do you just continue walking?

Most normal people just continue walking. Now, if that person got out of his car and started walking towards me, I would make note of it and say something to get a feel about what he wants. I'd expect him to say something about why he got out and is walking towards me. I'd be wary, but I wouldn't start running unless the guy pulled out a knife and started talking about sacrificing me to his god Bobo or something.

Martin, if we assume he wasn't doing anything wrong, way overreacted. His actions just don't match those of someone who's actually just walking home and not doing anything wrong. They perfectly match the actions of someone who was doing something he wasn't supposed to and realized that he'd been spotted doing it. And this part of the encounter is part of the recorded call to police, so we're not relying on Zimmerman's word for it. Martin ran before Zimmerman got out of the car, much less followed Martin. So let's stop pretending that Martin did what he did because he was being followed. He was only followed *after* he did something that looked incredibly suspicious.

Quote:
How is "walking away" like a "normal person"? I had the cops called on me for not doing anything wrong. I ran away. Why put yourself in a situation where you'll be confronted? That's how Zimmerman got himself in that situation.


Huh? I didn't say "walking away". I said "walking on by". You're walking down a street. You see someone sitting in a car on the side of the street talking on a cell phone. Why the **** run from that? You'd just keep walking in the direction you were walking, right? That's what a "reasonable person" would do. You only might consider running away *if* the other person does something to make you think he's a danger to you, but at that point, Zimmerman was just sitting in his car.

And are you seriously about having the cops called on you for not doing anything wrong and running? That's also wrong. Someone calls the cops on you and you actually haven't done anything wrong, you continue doing what you're doing (which is presumably "not wrong") and if the cops show up, you explain to them how you're not doing anything wrong and you let the other guy get the heat for wasting the police's time. WTF? You seriously run and hide in that situation? Or is this one of those situation where "not doing anything wrong" really means "I was doing something wrong, but I didn't think it was a big deal, so boo hoo, he shouldn't call the cops on me"?

How'd you know someone called the cops on you in the first place? And are you aware that the fastest way to make yourself look guilty is to run and hide when the cops show up (or are on the way)? Maybe more people need to learn how to act like law abiding citizens to get this.

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Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal

If that is true, it only proves the point that Zimmerman was looking for trouble.


Which, ironically, is precisely what he's supposed to do as part of the watch. Remember, he called the cops and reported the behavior. That's it. He only followed Martin after Martin ran away from him. Was he supposed to ignore the guy wandering back and forth through the area in the rain? No. He's supposed to call and report it. And if the person runs away once he realized Zimmerman is there? Sure, he's not required to follow the person, but if he does, he can give the police a better idea of where he is in the complex and maybe make it possible for them to catch someone. Remember, Zimmerman doesn't know who Martin is. He sees someone acting suspicious. He calls the police to report it, and then the person does something even more suspicious. Martin basically confirms to Zimmerman that he was doing something he shouldn't have by running. Fair or not, that's the reasonable assumption based on Martins reaction.

Remember also that the watch was formed because there were break ins and vandalism going on. So if he can assist in catching whomever is doing it, he's doing his job. Remember also that there's next to zero evidence that Zimmerman did anything other than just follow Martin. Which he's well within his right to do.

Quote:
Given the fact he had nothing on him to prove any guilt of anything else other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time, your speculation has no value. Not only was he on the phone with his Girlfriend, he had nothing on him to promote that he was about to do something. So, as much as you don't want to admit that he ran out of the suspicion of Zimmerman, nothing favors your speculation.


Other than the fact that he ran. The claims of the girlfriend are her claims. The police dispatch recording clearly shows that Martin ran from Zimmerman prior to Zimmerman doing *anything* other than sit in his car and talk on his cell phone. So the question becomes "what did he suspect about Zimmerman"? Did he really think "this is some crazy stalker guy planning to kill me?", or did he think "this guy might be part of the neighborhood watch, and saw me poking around the neighborhood".

Quote:
Furthermore, given the fact that Zimmerman got out of the car to chase him, only proves the point that it was not just some random guy sitting in a car.


Except that Martin didn't know that until after he ran. So why did he run in the first place? Do you run away every time you see someone sitting in a parked car? Seriously? That behavior makes no sense if we assume he was just innocently walking home from the store. Everything Martin did that night screams "kid up to no good, trying to avoid getting caught".

Quote:
Just because he was smart enough to realize that he was being watched, doesn't make him a criminal.


Watched doing what though? Realizing you're being watched doing nothing wrong should not be a concern. What makes him appear to be a criminal is when realizing he's being watched prompts him to run away from the person watching him. So yeah, running in that situation doesn't "make him a criminal", but it sure does look suspicious.

[quote]Also remember, Martin RAN. If he wanted to fight, especially if he were a thug, he would have waved his glock and threatened him. By Martin running, that is an action of him not wanting to get involved. By Zimmerman chasing him, that is an action of him wanting to get involved.[/quote]

We can debate that, and no one knows for sure what happened to cause them to meet, but given their relative physical statures, if Martin really just wanted to run home, he could have made it in under a minute and Zimmerman would never have caught up with him. If you've looked at the map of the complex, there was no reason for Martin to turn around, yet where the fight occurred is very near to the road where Zimmerman's car was parked. Martin's father's house was in the opposite direction. Martin could have simply run through the complex, hung a left at the end of the interior rows with the grass and sidewalk, and been like 2 houses from his dad's place. Yet the spot where he was shot was in the other direction. It suggests he ran into the complex, then took two left turns and came back out towards the main road. Which makes no sense if you're trying to evade someone.

It makes complete sense if your intent is to double back around behind someone who followed you for a short distance and is now heading back to hiss car (as Zimmerman claims). Martin was a 17 year old football player. Zimmerman was a 29 (28 then?) year old some what out of shape guy. No way does he catch up to Martin if Martin is running away from him. And no possible way that he catches him where they ended out if that's how it went down.

It's just that all the physical evidence corroborates Zimmerman's story. The claims being made by the prosecution require some incredible stretches of possibility to even entertain. We have to assume that Zimmerman somehow magically became a track star and caught up with Martin, despite Martin having a head start and running straight home. We have to also assume that "straight home" for Martin consisted of taking a U turn through the complex and going back to the same road where he first ran into Zimmerman about 80-100 feet from where he first entered the complex rather than running out the other side of the interior where it opens out near to where home is. It requires that we accept that its perfectly reasonable for someone to assume grave danger presented by a person sitting in a car talking on their cell phone, yet at the same time insist that having suffered a **** nose and contusions on the back of your head doesn't qualify as being in grave danger at all.

It's just bizarre the lengths people seem to need to go to with regard to ignoring or twisting the facts of this case in order to make it fit a "white racist kills innocent black teen" narrative. At some point, don't we stop and look at the facts and evidence and ignore people's skin color? Is that even possible?
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#60 Jul 03 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
We're injecting race into it because race is part of it. Shocking.


Why is race part of it? Is there any indication that Zimmerman did what he did because of Martin's race?

People are choosing to see this through the lens of race. The fact that one person is black and another white (hispanic actually), doesn't mean that the issue is about race. But many people just can't get past the fact that Martin is black, and therefor we must assume a racial motive for his death. That's projection though.
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#61 Jul 03 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Default
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Oh, and because I still think it's strange as hell: No. I have never hidden in the bushes because I saw someone nearby. Ever. If I'm perfectly in the right to be where I am, why the **** would I hide? That's not normal behavior.
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#62 Jul 03 2013 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neither is following someone.
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#63 Jul 03 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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I think if I saw someone following me at night, trying to hide from them would not be completely out of the question. A coworker of mine did exactly that as he was was being followed at night by someone while we were out of town for a work related thing. He noticed he was being followed, turns a corner, ducked down behind a bush and watched as the person came around the corner, stopped, looked around (presumably for him) then after a few moments being unable to see him, continued on.

Now, when he told us the story the following morning on our way to work, we did not think that he did anything abnormal. We all thought the person following him was some sort of creep.
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#64 Jul 03 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Neither is following someone.


Explain how following differs from "walking towards"? If I walk towards you and stop a distance away and say something like "Hi. I'm with the local neighborhood watch and didn't recognized you. Are you staying in the complex?", there's nothing unusual. If I walk towards you and you turn and run away, what the hell? If I continue to try to walk up to you in order to have that same conversation, and you continue trying to get away from me, am I "following you"? Sure. But one of us is acting strangely, and the other is not. I'll give you a hint: It's the guy who's so paranoid that someone simply walking in their direction causes them to flee in terror.

Now if you're walking along and someone is following you (as described above), never attempting communication, or going elsewhere, but keeping pace, then you might start to get a bit nervous. And this is what people keep implying happened in this case, but there's no evidence to support it (other than the claims of Martin's girlfriend). It's why we keep getting these repeated claims that Zimmerman "stalked" Martin. But that's not what happened. We know from the recorded phone call that Martin ran away before Zimmerman ever even got out of the car.


So I'll ask again: What did Zimmerman do that was so suspicious that it would cause Martin to flee? Zimmerman only followed Martin *after* he ran away. So the $64k question is: Why did Martin run away? If he really was just innocently walking home, there's no reason to run away at all. Even if he was nervous about someone sitting in a parked car (and why would he be?), from the information and map of the complex, Zimmerman's car was facing the entrance of the complex. Martin was walking towards him from that entrance. Martin was on the other side of the street (the street runs along the outside edge of the complex, with the houses to the right side when heading in). Even if Zimmerman exited the car and initiated a conversation with Martin, he would have been standing 20-30 feet away. Certainly, not such a close encounter that a young healthy 17 year old should feel alarmed at all.

So why did Martin run? If we're going to look at suspicious behavior leading up to the physical confrontation, his act was the first one (second if you count the alleged suspicious behavior which prompted Zimmerman's call in the first place). And if we buy the claim that Martin wasn't doing anything wrong, and wasn't fleeing from an "authority" (watch in this case), but honestly thought that Zimmerman was such a creepy threat that he felt the need to flee while Zimmerman was still sitting in his car on the other side of the street, then why didn't he keep running home? I don't know about you, but if I've openly decided to flee someone cause I think he's going to do something to me, and the he starts following me, I don't stop until I know I'm safe. And I certainly don't then turn around and walk back in the direction the guy was when I first ran from him.


There are just too many things about the physical locations involved that don't make any sense if we accept that Martin was the one who was afraid and running away from someone he viewed as a criminal threat. Everything perfectly matches Zimmerman's claim that he followed Martin a short distance, lost him, then was heading back to his car when Martin approached him. We could then speculate that Zimmerman then decided to attack Martin, but that would just be speculation. At a bare minimum, we can say that only reason for Martin to double back around is if he was intending to confront Zimmerman. At the very least that calls into question the claim that he was afraid of Zimmerman and just trying to get away from him and to his home.
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#65 Jul 03 2013 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
We're injecting race into it because race is part of it. Shocking.


Why is race part of it? Is there any indication that Zimmerman did what he did because of Martin's race?

People are choosing to see this through the lens of race. The fact that one person is black and another white (hispanic actually), doesn't mean that the issue is about race. But many people just can't get past the fact that Martin is black, and therefor we must assume a racial motive for his death. That's projection though.


People are choosing to take the time to consider whether or not race could be a factor because, shocker, racism is still alive in our culture and it needs to be examined if this could have been a case of racially-motivated profiling.

The fact of the matter is that Zimmerman profiled Martin as being a potential threat to the neighborhood. If his race was a factor, it's relevant. If his race wasn't a factor, it's not relevant.

The only way you can find out if it was a factor is to examine that at trial.

Why is that a difficult concept for you?
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#66 Jul 03 2013 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
No. It's pure CYA. Police dispatchers are trained to tell anyone on the other end of the phone line to not do *anything* and to wait for police to arrive on the scene. It's their automatic response to any action the person proposes because if they don't do that, they can be sued for not telling the person "we don't need you to do that" if that person gets hurt. It's about getting on record that the dispatcher did not tell the person to do something. Don't read anything more into it than that.


None of what you said contradicted the point that the dispatcher gave Zimmerman the correct action to take. The dispatchers are trained to tell people what to do in certain situations. It's not so much as "CYA", but the right action to take. Just because avoiding contact with a criminal is always the right action, doesn't make it any less legit. Given that to be the right action, Zimmerman went looking for trouble.

Gbaji wrote:
At the end of the day, we have to weigh relative responsibility here. Zimmerman's responsibility for the outcome is no greater than any person walking through their own housing complex at night.


Zimmerman CHASED Martin with a loaded weapon. You keep trying to downplay his actions by saying "walking" and "sitting". If Martin ran away, then there is no way that Zimmerman could have caught him without running after Martin. I'm being as unbiased as I can, but you are obviously bigoted towards Zimmerman.

Gbaji wrote:
Martin died because he pinned Zimmerman to the ground and beat him in the face with no sign of stopping. That's much more directly responsible for his death than the fact that Zimmerman was there to be pinned to the ground and beaten in the face. Don't you agree? You're trying to effectively blame the victim of a mugging for being mugged because if he hadn't walked down that street late at night, he wouldn't have been mugged. Then trying to blame him for shooting his mugger because he's somehow in the wrong for walking down a street late at night, knowing there's a possibility he might get mugged and then having the audacity to carry a concealed weapon just in case he is.

That's nutty thinking.


On the contrary. Unlike you, I don't know what happened between Zimmerman catching up with Martin and Martin dying. All I know (or anyone for that matter)is the following:

1. Zimmerman saw Martin.
2. Martin ran.
3. Zimmerman ran
4. Zimmerman and Martin were together
5. Zimmerman shot Martin

We don't know what happened at "4", so you cannot give any blame. The point of the trial is to find out what happened at "4". Until those facts come out, blame can only be given at "1" and "2", neither in which justifiably results in "5". If Martin were looking for a fight (removing "2"), then you can not assume that "4" and "5" wouldn't have happened. It couldn't have easily went "1", "3", "4","5".

So, as a result, the only thing anyone can confirm is that if "3" never happened, then neither would have "4" or "5".

Gbaji wrote:
He followed someone. That he had a concealed weapon is irrelevant. There is no evidence he drew his weapon or made the presence of the weapon known until after he was pinned to the ground. His action is not made any more or less legal based on the presence of his weapon.


No. He chased him. You can't meet up with a running person simply by "following" him. The fact that he had a concealed weapon is relevant because it was that weapon that killed him. If he had drawn the weapon, as a Police officer would have done, what would have been the result? Neither of us know, but I doubt it would have been the same.

Gbaji wrote:
Uh. No. I was at someone else's house (condo actually). I parked my car in one of the open spaces on the side of the complex and started walking towards my friends house, when this guy walked up and started asking me what I was doing in the complex, why I was there, which unit was I visiting, etc. I gave him the information and continued walking on. When I got to the friends house, I mentioned it and they kinda rolled their eyes because this particular guy was known to randomly wander around bugging people visiting the complex and to pay him no mind.


That's what I said.

Gbaji wrote:
This is more or less the exact same scenario Martin found himself in, yet it never once occurred to me to flee this guy, or to be concerned about him. My immediate assumption was that he was someone who lived in the complex, and was part of the neighborhood watch (which they had, but he apparently wasn't part of it, but was just a busybody), and it was at worst a minor annoyance to me. The point is that Martin's reaction was ridiculously out of proportion to what Zimmerman was doing.


The neighbor was not chasing you. That's the point that you conveniently overlooked. As I stated, if Zimmerman asked him the same questions outside of his girlfriends house, none of that would have happened. At most, it would have been a "Eff you" with a middle finger.

Gbaji wrote:
First off. I know that this has been misreported at length, but at no point did Zimmerman follow Martin "in his car". His car was parked the whole time. Second, as I pointed out earlier, Martin did not flee when Zimmerman followed him. Martin fled as soon as he saw Martin sitting in his car talking on his cell phone. So let's put this in perspective.


Mistake on the usage of words. I'm fully aware of that, that's why I asked you if you would get out of sight. If he were following you, then he would have moved to be in your sight again. At that point, you would know if he were following you or not. I should have used "watched" as a more accurate word.



At some point, you realize there's someone sitting in a car on the side of the road talking on their cell phone. Do you run away to hide from this person, or do you just continue walking?
....

Most normal people just continue walking. Now, if that person got out of his car and started walking towards me, I would make note of it and say something to get a feel about what he wants. I'd expect him to say something about why he got out and is walking towards me. I'd be wary, but I wouldn't start running unless the guy pulled out a knife and started talking about sacrificing me to his god Bobo or something.

Martin, if we assume he wasn't doing anything wrong, way overreacted. His actions just don't match those of someone who's actually just walking home and not doing anything wrong. They perfectly match the actions of someone who was doing something he wasn't supposed to and realized that he'd been spotted doing it. And this part of the encounter is part of the recorded call to police, so we're not relying on Zimmerman's word for it. Martin ran before Zimmerman got out of the car, much less followed Martin. So let's stop pretending that Martin did what he did because he was being followed. He was only followed *after* he did something that looked incredibly suspicious.

....
Huh? I didn't say "walking away". I said "walking on by". You're walking down a street. You see someone sitting in a car on the side of the street talking on a cell phone. Why the **** run from that? You'd just keep walking in the direction you were walking, right? That's what a "reasonable person" would do. You only might consider running away *if* the other person does something to make you think he's a danger to you, but at that point, Zimmerman was just sitting in his car.
...

Except that Martin didn't know that until after he ran. So why did he run in the first place? Do you run away every time you see someone sitting in a parked car? Seriously? That behavior makes no sense if we assume he was just innocently walking home from the store. Everything Martin did that night screams "kid up to no good, trying to avoid getting caught".



Are you suggesting that Martin ran away from every person sitting in a car on the phone? Is it too hard to believe that Zimmerman was just as suspicious as Martin was, sitting there in a parked car?


As stated, if Martin was THAT suspicious, then Zimmerman knowingly went towards trouble.

And are you seriously about having the cops called on you for not doing anything wrong and running? That's also wrong. Someone calls the cops on you and you actually haven't done anything wrong, you continue doing what you're doing (which is presumably "not wrong") and if the cops show up, you explain to them how you're not doing anything wrong and you let the other guy get the heat for wasting the police's time. WTF? You seriously run and hide in that situation? Or is this one of those situation where "not doing anything wrong" really means "I was doing something wrong, but I didn't think it was a big deal, so boo hoo, he shouldn't call the cops on me"?

How'd you know someone called the cops on you in the first place? And are you aware that the fastest way to make yourself look guilty is to run and hide when the cops show up (or are on the way)? Maybe more people need to learn how to act like law abiding citizens to get this.


When you're in a foreign country, your "rights" don't always carry over.

Option 1. Stay there and hope that the locals don't have any bias against Americans and understand the situation.

Option 2: Just leave because it's not worth risking getting in trouble. I didn't know she was calling the police, but felt like that I needed to leave. As I continued to walk home, I saw the Cops stop by a neighboring shop and got back in the car and pulled up to the shop that I was in. If I didn't 5-10 second buddy rush myself out of sight, I would have had some splainin' to do.

Which, ironically, is precisely what he's supposed to do as part of the watch. Remember, he called the cops and reported the behavior. That's it. He only followed Martin after Martin ran away from him. Was he supposed to ignore the guy wandering back and forth through the area in the rain? No. He's supposed to call and report it. And if the person runs away once he realized Zimmerman is there? Sure, he's not required to follow the person, but if he does, he can give the police a better idea of where he is in the complex and maybe make it possible for them to catch someone. Remember, Zimmerman doesn't know who Martin is. He sees someone acting suspicious. He calls the police to report it, and then the person does something even more suspicious. Martin basically confirms to Zimmerman that he was doing something he shouldn't have by running. Fair or not, that's the reasonable assumption based on Martins reaction.

Remember also that the watch was formed because there were break ins and vandalism going on. So if he can assist in catching whomever is doing it, he's doing his job. Remember also that there's next to zero evidence that Zimmerman did anything other than just follow Martin. Which he's well within his right to do.


Once again. He did not "follow" him. He chased him. If he wanted to follow him to ensure that he didn't "get away", then he would have stayed in his car and followed him via car. The fact that he chased him on foot, means that he was looking for trouble. WTF would you expect a person running from you to do when you catch him? "Oh, hey what's up?". Given the facts that Martin is running and Zimmerman is not a cop, what makes you think that Martin would listen to any words that Zimmerman would have to say and not escalate at some level?

There is no way that anyone could conjuncture a non-violent ending from that scenario.

Other than the fact that he ran. The claims of the girlfriend are her claims. The police dispatch recording clearly shows that Martin ran from Zimmerman prior to Zimmerman doing *anything* other than sit in his car and talk on his cell phone. So the question becomes "what did he suspect about Zimmerman"? Did he really think "this is some crazy stalker guy planning to kill me?", or did he think "this guy might be part of the neighborhood watch, and saw me poking around the neighborhood".


But it was a crazy guy who killed him!


We're talking about your speculation. He could not have thought, "I'm about to get caught", because he had nothing on him to suggest that he was about to commit a crime. You said yourself that he shouldn't have run. So you don't think this child just made a stupid mistake and shouldn't have ran? You can't possibly fathom that maybe he was scared and ran? Whether or not that was the best thing to do is irrelevant to the fact that he had nothing on him to suggest that he was about to commit a crime.

If he had a crowbar, some spray paint and other tools, you and everyone on his defense would say "He was about to commit a crime. Why else would he have those tools?" Am I right?

The fact that a normal person wouldn't run away from a guy simply sitting in his car, should be evident enough that Zimmerman was suspicious. That doesn't make Zimmerman wrong. Neither does that make Martin wrong. Let me clarify, if I were Martin, I would have done my buddy rush as described in my previous story (assuming that Zimmerman was suspicious enough to think something was about to happen). Neither of the two should have ran, but to paint this picture as if Martin was a lunatic who ran away from cars is silly. Obviously Zimmerman must have been suspicious enough for Martin to run. Just as Martin was obviously suspicious enough for Zimmerman to call him in and/or chase him.

Gbaji wrote:
Watched doing what though? Realizing you're being watched doing nothing wrong should not be a concern. What makes him appear to be a criminal is when realizing he's being watched prompts him to run away from the person watching him. So yeah, running in that situation doesn't "make him a criminal", but it sure does look suspicious.


You must not get out much. Someone watching you is a flag for you're about to be mugged.

I remember when I was walking down a street in Rio once and a guy a few feet from me felt uncomfortable with me behind him. So, he conveniently slowed down and "looked" at something. I caught on to what he was doing and did the same thing and looked at a magazine rack. After once or twice of doing that, he finally decided to cross the street, heading in the same direction.

Did he run? No, nor should he have, as I'm not saying that what Martin did was the best thing to do. However, to believe that people don't have suspicion of being followed, or in potential danger without the questioned individual doing anything outrageous is asinine.

We can debate that, and no one knows for sure what happened to cause them to meet, but given their relative physical statures, if Martin really just wanted to run home, he could have made it in under a minute and Zimmerman would never have caught up with him. If you've looked at the map of the complex, there was no reason for Martin to turn around, yet where the fight occurred is very near to the road where Zimmerman's car was parked. Martin's father's house was in the opposite direction. Martin could have simply run through the complex, hung a left at the end of the interior rows with the grass and sidewalk, and been like 2 houses from his dad's place. Yet the spot where he was shot was in the other direction. It suggests he ran into the complex, then took two left turns and came back out towards the main road. Which makes no sense if you're trying to evade someone.

It makes complete sense if your intent is to double back around behind someone who followed you for a short distance and is now heading back to hiss car (as Zimmerman claims). Martin was a 17 year old football player. Zimmerman was a 29 (28 then?) year old some what out of shape guy. No way does he catch up to Martin if Martin is running away from him. And no possible way that he catches him where they ended out if that's how it went down.

It's just that all the physical evidence corroborates Zimmerman's story. The claims being made by the prosecution require some incredible stretches of possibility to even entertain. We have to assume that Zimmerman somehow magically became a track star and caught up with Martin, despite Martin having a head start and running straight home. We have to also assume that "straight home" for Martin consisted of taking a U turn through the complex and going back to the same road where he first ran into Zimmerman about 80-100 feet from where he first entered the complex rather than running out the other side of the interior where it opens out near to where home is. It requires that we accept that its perfectly reasonable for someone to assume grave danger presented by a person sitting in a car talking on their cell phone, yet at the same time insist that having suffered a **** nose and contusions on the back of your head doesn't qualify as being in grave danger at all.


There's nothing to debate. If Zimmerman didn't want to get involved with a fleeing criminal, then he wouldn't have chased after him. Zimmerman was safe in his car with a loaded weapon. He put himself in danger. Now that doesn't mean that he was wrong for killing him, but it does prove that he was looking for trouble. What did he expect to happen when meeting him?

What makes you think that he's "out of shape"? Zimmerman saw Martin. He obviously knew his build. If Zimmerman thought that he couldn't "take him", then he wouldn't have ran after him.

As for that nonsense of him turning around looking for trouble? "A stranger is chasing me, let me run to my home because he'll never find me there!" GTFOWTBS! Why would you lead a person who's chasing you to your house?

It wasn't his complex, given the emotion that he was in, it is possible that he just started to run. With Zimmerman knowing the area presumably better than Martin, it is possible that Zimmerman cut him off. If Martin turned around and started running after him, at what point does Zimmerman start to feel threatened? Why didn't he pull out his gun BEFORE Martin caught up with him? I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but it would make less sense that Zimmerman stood there, trembling in his boots with his loaded weapon, as Martin ran towards him.

Personally, I think Zimmerman caught up with him and started fighting him. Martin took a couple of hits and then somehow got the upper hand.Zimmerman lost control of the fight and killed Martin before anyone saw the "Neighborhood watch" get his **** beat by a "punk". I have no idea if that's how it happened, but that seems more logical than any other presented story and it gives fault to both parties.

Gbaji wrote:

It's just bizarre the lengths people seem to need to go to with regard to ignoring or twisting the facts of this case in order to make it fit a "white racist kills innocent black teen" narrative. At some point, don't we stop and look at the facts and evidence and ignore people's skin color? Is that even possible?


Ironically, you're doing the exact same thing for Zimmerman. The fight is all debatable, but the fact that Zimmerman shouldn't have pursued Martin is not. The fact that you are relieving Zimmerman from any blame of this scenario is utterly bigotry. Just as Martin shouldn't have ran, neither should have Zimmerman.

Edited, Jul 4th 2013 4:49am by Almalieque
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#67 Jul 03 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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People are choosing to see this through the lens of race. The fact that one person is black and another white (hispanic actually), doesn't mean that the issue is about race. But many people just can't get past the fact that Martin is black, and therefor we must assume a racial motive for his death.

Naturally not. A white kid in a sweatshirt walking around in the rain totally gets followed by a wannabe cop neighborhood watch guy then shot and killed. Happens all the time. Then after he's killed, the black guy who shot him is cleared by the police immediately. You just need to embrace your racism. It's ok, little fella, we know you're scared of the coloreds, you don't need to pretend any more.
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#68 Jul 04 2013 at 4:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Explain how following differs from "walking towards"? If I walk towards you and stop a distance away and say something like "Hi. I'm with the local neighborhood watch and didn't recognized you. Are you staying in the complex?", there's nothing unusual. If I walk towards you and you turn and run away, what the hell? If I continue to try to walk up to you in order to have that same conversation, and you continue trying to get away from me, am I "following you"? Sure. But one of us is acting strangely, and the other is not. I'll give you a hint: It's the guy who's so paranoid that someone simply walking in their direction causes them to flee in terror.
You're acting strangely.
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#69 Jul 04 2013 at 5:42 AM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Quote:
Explain how following differs from "walking towards"? If I walk towards you and stop a distance away and say something like "Hi. I'm with the local neighborhood watch and didn't recognized you. Are you staying in the complex?", there's nothing unusual. If I walk towards you and you turn and run away, what the hell? If I continue to try to walk up to you in order to have that same conversation, and you continue trying to get away from me, am I "following you"? Sure. But one of us is acting strangely, and the other is not. I'll give you a hint: It's the guy who's so paranoid that someone simply walking in their direction causes them to flee in terror.
You're acting strangely.


To better answer his question, the difference is with intent. If someone were walking towards you, playing Angry Birds or listening to music, not paying attention to his surroundings, you wouldn't think anything about it. If that same person were walking towards you, looking directly at you, without taking his eyes off of you, you would think something was up.

I'm not sure why Gbaji is trying to paint Zimmerman as a person with absolutely no fault, while at the same time criticizing others for doing the same thing with Martin. Both were at some fault. To believe that Zimmerman did absolutely nothing suspicious to cause Martin to run asserts that Martin runs from random people. Given that there is no evidence of Martin committing a crime, it would only make sense that Zimmerman did something to scare Martin. That doesn't mean Martin should have ran, but that doesn't take away the fact that Zimmerman was acting just as suspicious as he portrayed Martin.
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#70 Jul 04 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
racism is still alive in our culture
Don't be absurd. We put a black dude in the office.
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#71 Jul 04 2013 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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To many cries of him being an evil Kenyan muslim terrorist. Yep, no racism there.
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#72 Jul 04 2013 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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We put a black dude in the office.

Well, some of us did. Gbaji tried to put the white guy in office.
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#73 Jul 04 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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Zimmerman CHASED Martin with a loaded weapon. You keep trying to downplay his actions by saying "walking" and "sitting". If Martin ran away, then there is no way that Zimmerman could have caught him without running after Martin. I'm being as unbiased as I can, but you are obviously bigoted towards Zimmerman.

Quote:
No. He chased him.

Quote:
Once again. He did not "follow" him. He chased him. If he wanted to follow him to ensure that he didn't "get away", then he would have stayed in his car and followed him via car.

People here say you're stupid, but I always like to give the benefit of the doubt. It seems that no matter how many times it's been mentioned, you keep missing it. Zimmerman briefly pursued Martin, but lost sight of him quickly. It was while he was returning to his vehicle that he was "jumped" by Martin. At this point, Martin becomes the aggressor. If this is "in fact" how it happened, then Zimmerman is within his rights to use deadly force to defend himself. You don't know exactly what happened. I don't know exactly what happened. Let's wait for more evidence to be released at trial before we condemn this man, unlike what most of the country has already done.
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#74 Jul 04 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Kastigir wrote:
Quote:
Zimmerman CHASED Martin with a loaded weapon. You keep trying to downplay his actions by saying "walking" and "sitting". If Martin ran away, then there is no way that Zimmerman could have caught him without running after Martin. I'm being as unbiased as I can, but you are obviously bigoted towards Zimmerman.

Quote:
No. He chased him.

Quote:
Once again. He did not "follow" him. He chased him. If he wanted to follow him to ensure that he didn't "get away", then he would have stayed in his car and followed him via car.

People here say you're stupid, but I always like to give the benefit of the doubt. It seems that no matter how many times it's been mentioned, you keep missing it. Zimmerman briefly pursued Martin, but lost sight of him quickly. It was while he was returning to his vehicle that he was "jumped" by Martin. At this point, Martin becomes the aggressor. If this is "in fact" how it happened, then Zimmerman is within his rights to use deadly force to defend himself. You don't know exactly what happened. I don't know exactly what happened. Let's wait for more evidence to be released at trial before we condemn this man, unlike what most of the country has already done.


It's not as easy as "if he was returning to his truck, he's free." The jury is going to have to decide whether or not a pursuit of Martin warrants labeling him the aggressor, and whether or not simply ceasing to pursue Martin for that moment is sufficient to clear him with regards to the law.

The law isn't contingent on Zimmerman actively acting as an aggressor, it's contingent on him creating an atmosphere in which he could naturally be perceived as an aggressor.

This is with regards to the manslaughter charge, though. I can't decide if I think that would be meaningful for the murder charge, since that hangs more firmly on the idea of Zimmerman profiling and following Martin in the first place, with the intent of confronting him. I'm inclined to say it won't, but I honestly can't decide.

Either way, Zimmerman is going to have a tough time proving he was actually returning to his truck. He's already created doubt in his own testimony, and that's pretty much all he has.
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#75 Jul 04 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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I'd be surprised if he doesn't get convicted. public opinion isn't on his side, he's not exactly all that smart and he's had that money laundering problem right after it happened as well.

The dispatcher call won't do him any good either.
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#76 Jul 04 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...
#77 Jul 04 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."
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#78 Jul 04 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Trite 'wisdom' dropped off in an airy drive-by. You really added to the conversation there, buddy.

Thanks for your input. It is valued. You are valued.
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#79 Jul 04 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."


That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.
#80 Jul 04 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."


That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.


Hence why they tried to find 6 jurors who, allegedly, had never heard of the case.

Which, of course, means that they're 6 jurors who are either filthy liars or backwater hillbillies who haven't spoken to another human being in 2 years.
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#81 Jul 04 2013 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
People here say you're stupid, but I always like to give the benefit of the doubt. It seems that no matter how many times it's been mentioned, you keep missing it. Zimmerman briefly pursued Martin, but lost sight of him quickly. It was while he was returning to his vehicle that he was "jumped" by Martin. At this point, Martin becomes the aggressor. If this is "in fact" how it happened, then Zimmerman is within his rights to use deadly force to defend himself. You don't know exactly what happened. I don't know exactly what happened. Let's wait for more evidence to be released at trial before we condemn this man, unlike what most of the country has already done.


Well, if you listen to "those people", you will be no smarter than them. However, I'll give you the same benefit of the doubt. If you read what I've said, I was not in no way condemning Zimmerman. I've said several times that none of us knew what happened at the brawl. His killing may have very well been justified.

My only point, which you obviously overlooked, is that BOTH parties are at some fault for the conclusion. Gbaji was painting Zimmerman as being fault free, just as everyone else is/was painting Martin as being guilt free. So unless you have beef with the thought that maybe both people were at fault and we don't know what happened, that's for the courts to decide, I'm not sure of your concern.

what's the difference between "briefly pursuing him" and "briefly chasing him?". All you're doing is using less aggressive words in attempt to make him seem less guilty of any wrong doing.

1. If Martin ran away, then he expressed not wanting to get involved, or he would have stayed there or ran towards him. It makes absolutely no sense to run away from him then all of the sudden run towards him. That might have happened, but doesn't seem logical.

2. A more logical explanation (assuming that Zimmerman got jumped) is that Zimmerman continued to chase him, even after losing sight, then got jumped when he got near Martin.

3. If Zimmerman "lost" sight of Martin, then that means that there were some good amount of distance between them. It would have taken Martin the same amount of time + the distance from where he took off to catch up with Zimmerman. If it were only a "briefly pursue", then Zimmerman should have safely returned to his car before Martin arrived.

4. What was Zimmerman doing before he got jumped? Could he not hear him running towards him? If it were only a "brief pursue", it would have taken Martin awhile to turn around catch him. So what was Zimmerman doing the whole time? Just casually walking with his head down?

5. Given the fact that he was told not to go after Martin and he did anyway, knowing the distance between them, it is out of character for Zimmerman to just "give up" and idly walk back to his car.

I've admitted that being overseas, I'm not as updated on the story as I once was. However, don't come to me with "facts", just to say that you don't know what happened either. We're both in the same boat. The only difference is, I'm giving both parties fault at what happened.
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Almalieque wrote:

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#82 Jul 04 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demoncard wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
Public opinion should have no place in a court of law.

...continue...


Well, it does have some place in a court of law. Since it's the public that shapes those laws, and the jurors being chosen from that public.

You know, the whole "of the people, by the people, for the people."


That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.
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#83 Jul 04 2013 at 5:35 PM Rating: Default
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Demoncard wrote:

That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.


Being a Sage with 61 posts hardly seems fair either. I joke I kid... Seriously though, even without the media, people will have bias. The point is to attack the scenario objectively.

Oh, this reminds me of "12 Angry Men"...
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#84 Jul 04 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
reminds me of "12 Angry Men"...


Reminds me more of "12 Angry Little People"
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#85 Jul 04 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Alma's not stupid.






He's retarded.
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#86 Jul 05 2013 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
reminds me of "12 Angry Men"...


Reminds me more of "12 Angry Little People"


I guess people think that only the media brings in bias..Smiley: rolleyes
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#87 Jul 05 2013 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Everyone is biased all the time. It can't be helped. Deal with it.



Edited, Jul 5th 2013 5:36pm by Elinda
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#88 Jul 05 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Everyone is biased all the time. It can be helped. Deal with it.

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#89 Jul 05 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Blackmail and death threats makes sure they are not biased.*








* and by that I mean biased in your favour.
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#90 Jul 05 2013 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sympathetic toward Martin because he's the one that's dead.

Zimmerman thought he had a gun in his hoodie pocket. It was a packet of Skittles.
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#91 Jul 05 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
I'm sympathetic toward Martin because he's the one that's dead.

Zimmerman thought he had a gun in his hoodie pocket. It was a packet of Skittles.


Maybe those skittles were laced with cyanide? According to Gbaji, "he was up to no good", so there must have been some form of evidence on him to support committing a crime.

For clarification: I'm not saying that he wasn't about to commit a crime, just saying that unless there's evidence to support that claim, it's highly unlikely.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#92 Jul 05 2013 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
That hardly seems fair, given that everyone is being made to believe Zimmerman's guilty through his one sided portrayal in the media.


He's totally guilty. It's just hard to prove that it wasn't self defense, given the only other witness is dead. Methinks if their roles were reversed Martin would already have been convicted.

However, Florida.
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#93 Jul 05 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
People are choosing to take the time to consider whether or not race could be a factor because, shocker, racism is still alive in our culture and it needs to be examined if this could have been a case of racially-motivated profiling.


Sure. Examine away. Problem is that people aren't "examining" in order to determine if race was a factor, but rather "assuming" it was and proceeding from there.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is that Zimmerman profiled Martin as being a potential threat to the neighborhood.


False. That not only is not a "fact", but is directly disputed by the actual fact that Zimmerman did not know the race of the "suspicious person" he saw when he made the call to police. BTW, what you just said is what I mean by people assuming that race was a factor.

Quote:
If his race was a factor, it's relevant. If his race wasn't a factor, it's not relevant.


Correct. And I'm saying that it wasn't a factor, and therefore should not be relevant, but a whole lot of people keep claiming it's a factor.

Quote:
The only way you can find out if it was a factor is to examine that at trial.


Or, I don't know, listen to the phone call where it's abundantly clear that Zimmerman didn't know the skin color of the person he was calling the police to report until well into the phone call itself.

Quote:
Why is that a difficult concept for you?


Kinda asking you the same thing here.

Edited, Jul 5th 2013 5:54pm by gbaji
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#94 Jul 05 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
If Martin ran away, then there is no way that Zimmerman could have caught him without running after Martin.


Unless Martin doubled back and attacked Zimmerman as he was heading back to his vehicle exactly as Zimmerman claimed happened. It's not like we even have to go far to look for a way for this to have happened. It's being told to us by the defendant. You have a strange idea of what "no way" means.

But as long as we're tossing out hyperbole, it's far more reasonable to say that there was "no way" for Zimmerman to have caught Martin at all unless Martin stopped running and/or turned and went back the way he came. And, as I pointed out a few posts back, the location where the fight (and shooting occurred) does not make any sense if Martin was actually continuing to move in a straight line towards home. Even if we speculated that Martin slowed down to a walk after initially losing Zimmerman, the only way they end out encountering each other where they did is if Martin doubled back. If Zimmerman had somehow caught up with Martin while Martin was heading straight home, the shooting should have occurred at the opposite end of the row of houses from where it was.

Quote:
I'm being as unbiased as I can, but you are obviously bigoted towards Zimmerman.


You also have an odd definition of "unbiased". I'm just looking at the facts here. We can speculate about motivation all day long, but the fact is that Martin fled away (running) from Zimmerman in a direction that headed him (more or less) in a straight line towards his home. Zimmerman followed him (at best at a brisk walk based on the sounds on the police recording), and thus was behind him. While there are a few different specific routes Martin could have taken to get home from the point where he ran from Zimmerman, there's no real "short cut" to be had. He either runs down the street Zimmerman's parked on, or goes across the complex a bit and down a path between the houses (which includes the back entrance of his home), or continues across to the next street and goes down that street (which is where the front of his home is).

All three paths are more or less parallel. Also, the distance from where Zimmerman's car was and where the shooting occurred is somewhere around 100 feet (and perhaps another 150-200 feet from the Martin home). It's just hard to look at the maps and figure out any way that Zimmerman could have encountered Martin where he did if Martin was actually heading towards his home the whole time. Either Martin doubled back, or he hid somewhere along the route. It's just that there's not enough distance between where they both started from and the shooting location to justify the kind of "pursuit" that some people seem to keep trying to insist happened. Hell. Zimmerman was probably past the T intersection (just north of the shooting) before ending the call to the police. It's that short of a distance.

The physical location of the shooting just doesn't add up to Martin simply heading home. It *does* add up to Martin either hiding and then confronting Zimmerman, or doubling back. I suppose for completeness we could include Martin hiding and Zimmerman finding him as well. Again though *all* of those scenarios completely discount the girlfriends testimony. She claimed that Martin continued to move and headed towards home the entire time. If that was the case, it's hard to figure out how the **** Zimmerman could have caught up with him. Doubly so when we consider the length of the phone call in question. There's not enough distance traveled for the events as portrayed by the girlfriend to have happened.


Quote:
No. He chased him. You can't meet up with a running person simply by "following" him.


Sigh. Again, there's no way he ran Martin down. Not only is it unlikely given the relative age and physical capabilities of the two, but there's just not enough distance involved. It would be like you walking past me, then starting to run away from me about 30 feet away, then I get out of my car, and run after you, and somehow catch up with you 70 feet further away. I'd have to be the most amazing track star in the world to do that, and Zimmerman isn't a track star. Also, we know that Zimmerman was not running. He was at best walking quickly because he continues his conversation with the police for another 15-20 seconds after getting out of his car. And at that pace, he likely was still fairly close to where the shooting ultimately occurred when he ended the call.

There's just too much time and not enough distance for this to have anything remotely like a straight pursuit.

Quote:
The fact that he had a concealed weapon is relevant because it was that weapon that killed him. If he had drawn the weapon, as a Police officer would have done, what would have been the result? Neither of us know, but I doubt it would have been the same.


Um... he would have been charged with a felony. Do you know anything about concealed weapon laws? He's not allowed to show it to anyone in public. He's not allowed to brandish it. He's not allowed to threaten anyone with it. He can't say "I have a gun!", even if he's faced with someone trying to mug him. He is allowed to use it in self defense or to prevent a forcible felony. That's it. So while we can speculate that had he brandished his firearm, Martin might have chosen to do something other than attack him, but that would be specifically in violation of the law. Martin's supposed to not attack other people because it's the wrong thing to do, not because they have the ability to hurt or kill him if he does. The very suggestion you're making kinda suggests that I'm right. If things would have ended differently if Zimmerman had openly revealed his gun, it would only have been because Martin would have made different decisions in that situation. Um... Which is basically saying that Martin did cause the physical encounter and Zimmerman was thus justified to use his weapon in self defense.

Quote:
The neighbor was not chasing you.


The neighbor chased me just as much (moreso actually) than Zimmerman chased Martinn. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin walked towards him, then past him, then ran into the complex. Zimmerman was still in the car when Martin ran. Zimmerman didn't get out of his car and confront Martin while he was heading towards him. He didn't do so as he passed him. He only followed him *after* he ran.

In my case, the neighbor approached me. As in, I got out of my car, and as I walked towards my friends house, he walked up directly to me and started asking me questions about who I was and why I was there. It was at night, no one else was around, and I can only assume he was walking around the complex looking for anyone who he didn't know so as to accost them about why they were there. And it never once occurred to me to run from him, or to attack him.

Quote:
As I stated, if Zimmerman asked him the same questions outside of his girlfriends house, none of that would have happened. At most, it would have been a "Eff you" with a middle finger.


Zimmerman did nothing but sit in his car though. It was only after Martin started running that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him to see where he went. There's no indication at all that he was "chasing" Martin.

Quote:
Mistake on the usage of words. I'm fully aware of that, that's why I asked you if you would get out of sight. If he were following you, then he would have moved to be in your sight again.


Except that he wasn't being followed. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin began running away before Zimmerman got out of his car. Martin ran, not because he was being followed, but because he saw someone sitting in a car watching him and talking on his phone. That's it. This isn't a question of someone following you, so you get nervous and decide to run and hide. This is a case of you walking down the street, seeing someone sitting in a car on the side of the street talking on a cell phone, and deciding to flee from that person.

So no. I would not "get out of sight". I'd continue walking towards my destination. I'd only worry if the person did get out of the car and started heading towards me. And even then it would be more of just being aware that there's someone there just on the off chance that he is some deranged serial killer. And if I did get so worried about him that I'd run home, I'd actually run home. If you're scared of someone and have clear path to run home (and it's like 200 feet away max), you run. But you wait until you know there's a reason to be scared. Martin ran away from a man sitting in his car. But only far enough to get out of sight, at which point he either hid or doubled back. That's not the behavior of someone who thinks he's being stalked by a killer and home is a couple hundred feet away.

Quote:
Once again. He did not "follow" him. He chased him. If he wanted to follow him to ensure that he didn't "get away", then he would have stayed in his car and followed him via car.


Except that Martin moved off the road and onto a pathway between the homes. Can't follow him in a car. It's quite reasonable for Zimmerman to have followed Martin through that walkway area. In the area, he could see if he went down the row, or out to the street on the other side. If he takes his car around the long way, there's too many directions Martin could go. The locations actually do match Zimmerman's story quite nicely. If I were trying to see where someone ran, I'd go to about where he was as well (and perhaps walk a short distance in each direction from the T intersection to have the best chance of spotting someone).

You really should go look up some of the maps of the complex. Some of them are full of speculations about where things were and when, and there are lots of opinions, but at the very least it gives you an idea of where Zimmerman's car was (approximately. there's some disagreement on this), where the club house was, where the entrance was, and where the shooting was. Once you do this and start looking at the actual locations and distances involved, the holes in the "Martin was just a scared kid trying to get home" theory start to get pretty large.

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#95 Jul 05 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji,

If he had a crowbar, some spray paint and other tools, you and everyone on his defense would say "He was about to commit a crime. Why else would he have those tools?" Am I right?

Unless Martin doubled back and attacked Zimmerman as he was heading back to his vehicle exactly as Zimmerman claimed happened. It's not like we even have to go far to look for a way for this to have happened. It's being told to us by the defendant. You have a strange idea of what "no way" means.

But as long as we're tossing out hyperbole, it's far more reasonable to say that there was "no way" for Zimmerman to have caught Martin at all unless Martin stopped running and/or turned and went back the way he came. And, as I pointed out a few posts back, the location where the fight (and shooting occurred) does not make any sense if Martin was actually continuing to move in a straight line towards home. Even if we speculated that Martin slowed down to a walk after initially losing Zimmerman, the only way they end out encountering each other where they did is if Martin doubled back. If Zimmerman had somehow caught up with Martin while Martin was heading straight home, the shooting should have occurred at the opposite end of the row of houses from where it was.


Doubling back doesn't negate Zimmerman running towards him.

1. If Martin ran away, then he expressed not wanting to get involved, or he would have stayed there or ran towards him. It makes absolutely no sense to run away from him then all of the sudden run towards him. That might have happened, but doesn't seem logical.

2. A more logical explanation (assuming that Zimmerman got jumped) is that Zimmerman continued to chase him, even after losing sight, then got jumped when he got near Martin.

3. If Zimmerman "lost" sight of Martin, then that means that there were some good amount of distance between them. It would have taken Martin the same amount of time + the distance from where he took off to catch up with Zimmerman. If it were only a "briefly pursue", then Zimmerman should have safely returned to his car before Martin arrived.

4. What was Zimmerman doing before he got jumped? Could he not hear him running towards him? If it were only a "brief pursue", it would have taken Martin awhile to turn around catch him. So what was Zimmerman doing the whole time? Just casually walking with his head down?

5. Given the fact that he was told not to go after Martin and he did anyway, knowing the distance between them, it is out of character for Zimmerman to just "give up" and idly walk back to his car.

The neighbor chased me just as much (moreso actually) than Zimmerman chased Martinn. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin walked towards him, then past him, then ran into the complex. Zimmerman was still in the car when Martin ran. Zimmerman didn't get out of his car and confront Martin while he was heading towards him. He didn't do so as he passed him. He only followed him *after* he ran.

In my case, the neighbor approached me. As in, I got out of my car, and as I walked towards my friends house, he walked up directly to me and started asking me questions about who I was and why I was there. It was at night, no one else was around, and I can only assume he was walking around the complex looking for anyone who he didn't know so as to accost them about why they were there. And it never once occurred to me to run from him, or to attack him.
....
Zimmerman did nothing but sit in his car though. It was only after Martin started running that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him to see where he went. There's no indication at all that he was "chasing" Martin.



Read above. Those 5 comments contradict the belief that Zimmerman stayed at his car. You're also bypassing the point that if Zimmerman was "picking up his mail", while asking Martin questions, as his girlfriend's neighbor, none of that would have happened. The point being that obviously Zimmerman was acting just as suspicious as Martin was or he wouldn't have known that Zimmerman was watching him from his car. There's nothing suspicious about checking your mail or walking the dog with the wife. There are a ton of scenarios where Zimmerman could have confronted Martin without any suspicion, unless you believe that Martin was just plum crazy running away from people in parked cars. If the latter is true, then Zimmerman again was looking for trouble. What do you expect to happen when chasing a crazy person?

You also have an odd definition of "unbiased". I'm just looking at the facts here. We can speculate about motivation all day long, but the fact is that Martin fled away (running) from Zimmerman in a direction that headed him (more or less) in a straight line towards his home. Zimmerman followed him (at best at a brisk walk based on the sounds on the police recording), and thus was behind him. While there are a few different specific routes Martin could have taken to get home from the point where he ran from Zimmerman, there's no real "short cut" to be had. He either runs down the street Zimmerman's parked on, or goes across the complex a bit and down a path between the houses (which includes the back entrance of his home), or continues across to the next street and goes down that street (which is where the front of his home is).

All three paths are more or less parallel. Also, the distance from where Zimmerman's car was and where the shooting occurred is somewhere around 100 feet (and perhaps another 150-200 feet from the Martin home). It's just hard to look at the maps and figure out any way that Zimmerman could have encountered Martin where he did if Martin was actually heading towards his home the whole time. Either Martin doubled back, or he hid somewhere along the route. It's just that there's not enough distance between where they both started from and the shooting location to justify the kind of "pursuit" that some people seem to keep trying to insist happened. Hell. Zimmerman was probably past the T intersection (just north of the shooting) before ending the call to the police. It's that short of a distance.

The physical location of the shooting just doesn't add up to Martin simply heading home. It *does* add up to Martin either hiding and then confronting Zimmerman, or doubling back. I suppose for completeness we could include Martin hiding and Zimmerman finding him as well. Again though *all* of those scenarios completely discount the girlfriends testimony. She claimed that Martin continued to move and headed towards home the entire time. If that was the case, it's hard to figure out how the **** Zimmerman could have caught up with him. Doubly so when we consider the length of the phone call in question. There's not enough distance traveled for the events as portrayed by the girlfriend to have happened.

.....

Sigh. Again, there's no way he ran Martin down. Not only is it unlikely given the relative age and physical capabilities of the two, but there's just not enough distance involved. It would be like you walking past me, then starting to run away from me about 30 feet away, then I get out of my car, and run after you, and somehow catch up with you 70 feet further away. I'd have to be the most amazing track star in the world to do that, and Zimmerman isn't a track star. Also, we know that Zimmerman was not running. He was at best walking quickly because he continues his conversation with the police for another 15-20 seconds after getting out of his car. And at that pace, he likely was still fairly close to where the shooting ultimately occurred when he ended the call.

There's just too much time and not enough distance for this to have anything remotely like a straight pursuit.


Maybe you should look up the word bias. I'm unbiased in the fact that I'm recognizing that both parties are at some fault and that the shooting could or could not have been justified. You refuse to acknowledge any fault towards Zimmerman and proposing only stories that justifies the shooting. That my friend is biased.

Um... he would have been charged with a felony. Do you know anything about concealed weapon laws? He's not allowed to show it to anyone in public. He's not allowed to brandish it. He's not allowed to threaten anyone with it. He can't say "I have a gun!", even if he's faced with someone trying to mug him. He is allowed to use it in self defense or to prevent a forcible felony. That's it. So while we can speculate that had he brandished his firearm, Martin might have chosen to do something other than attack him, but that would be specifically in violation of the law. Martin's supposed to not attack other people because it's the wrong thing to do, not because they have the ability to hurt or kill him if he does. The very suggestion you're making kinda suggests that I'm right. If things would have ended differently if Zimmerman had openly revealed his gun, it would only have been because Martin would have made different decisions in that situation. Um... Which is basically saying that Martin did cause the physical encounter and Zimmerman was thus justified to use his weapon in self defense.


That's only true in a made up scenario that's bigoted towards Zimmerman. Based off his disregard to the dispatcher, you can't paint Zimmerman as a 100% law abiding citizen. That wasn't breaking the law, but it shows a blatant display of not listening. That's also ignoring his criminal history.

In any case, the point that Martin would have behaved differently with a drawn weapon and the fact that only authorized personnel (i.e. the police) can wave their fire arm around only supports the argument that Zimmerman should have gone back in his car and listened to the dispatcher. Zimmerman went looking for trouble! That doesn't make him guilty, but you can't deny the fault of him for chasing Martin, the same way you can't deny the fault of Martin for running.

Except that he wasn't being followed. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Zimmerman was sitting in his car. Martin began running away before Zimmerman got out of his car. Martin ran, not because he was being followed, but because he saw someone sitting in a car watching him and talking on his phone. That's it. This isn't a question of someone following you, so you get nervous and decide to run and hide. This is a case of you walking down the street, seeing someone sitting in a car on the side of the street talking on a cell phone, and deciding to flee from that person.

So no. I would not "get out of sight". I'd continue walking towards my destination. I'd only worry if the person did get out of the car and started heading towards me. And even then it would be more of just being aware that there's someone there just on the off chance that he is some deranged serial killer. And if I did get so worried about him that I'd run home, I'd actually run home. If you're scared of someone and have clear path to run home (and it's like 200 feet away max), you run. But you wait until you know there's a reason to be scared. Martin ran away from a man sitting in his car. But only far enough to get out of sight, at which point he either hid or doubled back. That's not the behavior of someone who thinks he's being stalked by a killer and home is a couple hundred feet away.


Are you suggesting that Martin ran away from every person sitting in a car on the phone? Is it too hard to believe that Zimmerman was just as suspicious as Martin was, sitting there in a parked car?In any case, you admitted to getting out of sight. Except your reaction was more reasonable. I've admitted that Martin prematurely ran, but he was right in his suspicion. That doesn't make Martin any more guilty than Zimmerman chasing trouble.

As stated, if Martin was THAT suspicious, then Zimmerman knowingly went towards trouble. You keep subscribing to Martin being "Crazy" for thinking that some random guy in a parked car is some killer when in fact Zimmerman killed him. Regardless or not he was in the car, Zimmerman was following him. That's why he got out of the car not to lose sight of him. If he weren't following him, he would have stayed in his car. He didn't get out of his car before Martin ran because he was still in Zimmerman's eye sight. Again, just because Martin was smart enough to realize Zimmerman's suspicious, doesn't make him crazy.


Except that Martin moved off the road and onto a pathway between the homes. Can't follow him in a car. It's quite reasonable for Zimmerman to have followed Martin through that walkway area. In the area, he could see if he went down the row, or out to the street on the other side. If he takes his car around the long way, there's too many directions Martin could go. The locations actually do match Zimmerman's story quite nicely. If I were trying to see where someone ran, I'd go to about where he was as well (and perhaps walk a short distance in each direction from the T intersection to have the best chance of spotting someone).

You really should go look up some of the maps of the complex. Some of them are full of speculations about where things were and when, and there are lots of opinions, but at the very least it gives you an idea of where Zimmerman's car was (approximately. there's some disagreement on this), where the club house was, where the entrance was, and where the shooting was. Once you do this and start looking at the actual locations and distances involved, the holes in the "Martin was just a scared kid trying to get home" theory start to get pretty large.


You didn't address the point made. Zimmerman was looking for trouble. He would have been safe staying in his car, with his weapon on the phone with 911. He didn't do anything wrong by chasing Martin, but what did you expect to happen when meeting Martin? Do you think a fleeing person "who was about to commit a crime" will just shake your hand and say "you got me!". He knew the danger and went forward.

Zimmerman could have followed Martin in his car. Losing sight doesn't negate the action of following. If I were Zimmerman, I wouldn't have gotten out of my car to chase him. Would you? Especially if he's so "out of shape" as you say. If he were "out of shape", then he wouldn't have chased him. He obviously thought that he could handle the situation even though he was told that his assistance wasn't necessary.

It wasn't Martin's complex, given the emotion that he was in, it is possible that he just started to run. With Zimmerman knowing the area presumably better than Martin, it is possible that Zimmerman cut him off. If Martin turned around and started running after him, at what point does Zimmerman start to feel threatened? Why didn't he pull out his gun BEFORE Martin caught up with him? I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but it would make less sense that Zimmerman stood there, trembling in his boots with his loaded weapon, as Martin ran towards him.

As I said, I think Zimmerman caught up with him and started fighting him. Martin took a couple of hits and then somehow got the upper hand. Zimmerman lost control of the fight and killed Martin before anyone saw the "Neighborhood watch" get his **** beat by a "punk". I have no idea if that's how it happened, but that seems more logical than any other presented story and it gives fault to both parties.

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#96 Jul 05 2013 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Almalieque wrote:
gbaji.....You keep subscribing to Martin being "Crazy" for thinking that some random guy in a parked car is some killer when in fact Zimmerman killed him.

He has a point.
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#97gbaji, Posted: Jul 09 2013 at 5:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Again. Not possible if Martin was actually heading home the entire time. You need to drop this assumption that there was a pursuit the entire time. The location of the shooting perfectly supports the claim that Zimmerman lost Martin and stayed in the area where he lost sight of him and then ran into him again in that area several minutes later. It absolutely does *not* support the claim that Martin continued to walk home and Zimmerman some how caught up to him and engaged him in a fight. There's too much time and not enough distance.
#98 Jul 09 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Correct. It makes no sense at all. If we assume that Martin's only objective was to avoid Zimmerman. Drop that assumption and things start making sense.


I'm going to assume his only goal was to escape danger.

If that meant he felt he had to run away, okay.

If he felt that it meant attacking the guy who had been trailing him in his truck, then got out of the truck to trail him on foot, okay.
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#99 Jul 09 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
1. If Martin ran away, then he expressed not wanting to get involved, or he would have stayed there or ran towards him. It makes absolutely no sense to run away from him then all of the sudden run towards him. That might have happened, but doesn't seem logical.


Correct. It makes no sense at all. If we assume that Martin's only objective was to avoid Zimmerman. Drop that assumption and things start making sense.

Quote:
2. A more logical explanation (assuming that Zimmerman got jumped) is that Zimmerman continued to chase him, even after losing sight, then got jumped when he got near Martin.


Again, as I pointed out before, if this was the case, the shooting should have occurred at the south end of that sidewalk between the houses instead of the very north end (which is the end they both started at). Assuming that Martin was actually headed home the entire time as the girlfriend claimed. Which is why that claim is so suspect. It just doesn't fit with the physical locations involved.

Quote:
3. If Zimmerman "lost" sight of Martin, then that means that there were some good amount of distance between them. It would have taken Martin the same amount of time + the distance from where he took off to catch up with Zimmerman. If it were only a "briefly pursue", then Zimmerman should have safely returned to his car before Martin arrived.


Zimmerman has never claimed he went directly back to his car though. He said that he went through to the next street, looked around there, then came back to the T intersection, presumably looked around in that area briefly, and *then* headed towards his car. Plenty of time for Martin to have either doubled back or just been hiding in the area the whole time.

Quote:
4. What was Zimmerman doing before he got jumped? Could he not hear him running towards him? If it were only a "brief pursue", it would have taken Martin awhile to turn around catch him. So what was Zimmerman doing the whole time? Just casually walking with his head down?


Doesn't really matter. We can speculate what he was doing, but whatever it was, it *wasn't* pursuing Martin. If any sort of pursuit had actually occurred, the shooting would have occurred far to the south of where it happened. The bigger question is "What was Martin doing?" How on earth was he such a short distance away from the north end of the area if he was heading south towards home the entire time.

Quote:
5. Given the fact that he was told not to go after Martin and he did anyway, knowing the distance between them, it is out of character for Zimmerman to just "give up" and idly walk back to his car.


Then what do you think happened. Look, here's a timeline of events. Look at the map on the right. Martin walked along the street that goes south from the north entrance past the clubhouse (the one that winds through the complex), then took the north path into the area with the two rows of houses (running north south), with the walkway between them. See where his home is. See where the shooting occurred. Zimmerman's vehicle was parked somewhere on the street facing the direction Martin walked along that street (and with a view of the entrance to that street, so not down too far). He watched Martin walk towards him (which is the first part of the phone call). Then he watches Martin walk past him on the street. Then reports Martin running into the complex along that north path. He follows him.

Here's the problem: 2 minutes and 20 seconds pass between when Zimmerman dropped the call with police and he encountered Martin. And he drops that call 1 minute and 8 seconds *after* reporting that Martin is running. There is simply no way the shooting should have occurred where it did given that much time if Martin was just heading home the whole time and Zimmerman followed him and somehow "caught up" with him. It's simply not possible. There's not enough distance and way too much time. Even at just a normal walking pace, Martin should have been at home by the time shooting occurred.

There is no way Martin was walking directly home. Period. Instead of obsessing over what Zimmerman was doing, ask what Martin was doing. Zimmerman appears to have lingered in the north area of the walkways, kinda what you might expect someone to do if he lost sight of a suspicious person. But there's no explanation for Martin being there unless he either hid, or he doubled back for some reason. We can speculate about *why* he did that, but it's clear that he did. The physical location of the shooting doesn't allow for any other explanation.

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Read above. Those 5 comments contradict the belief that Zimmerman stayed at his car.


I never said he stayed at his car the whole time. I said that he was in his car *until* Martin ran. Didn't think I was unclear about that.

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The point being that obviously Zimmerman was acting just as suspicious as Martin was or he wouldn't have known that Zimmerman was watching him from his car.


Zimmerman was acting exactly like a member of a neighborhood watch. WTF? Remember. Martin ran *before* Zimmerman ever got out of his car.

Quote:
Maybe you should look up the word bias. I'm unbiased in the fact that I'm recognizing that both parties are at some fault and that the shooting could or could not have been justified. You refuse to acknowledge any fault towards Zimmerman and proposing only stories that justifies the shooting. That my friend is biased.


I'm not refusing to acknowledge any possibility. I'm looking at the facts of the case and assessing those possibilities. What I'm not doing is obsessing over one thing (OMG! Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin!) and ignoring all the other facts. That's what you are doing. Zimmerman getting out of his car is *not* justification for Martin to attack him. Nothing Zimmerman did justifies Martin ending out on top of him, pinning him to the ground and beating his face in. And that's where the self defense claim comes from. Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin because he was acting suspicious. He didn't shoot him because he ran from him. He didn't even shoot him because the two got into a physical altercation (regardless of who started it). He shot him because he found himself pinned to the ground with an assailant on top of him, beating him in the face, and showing no sign of stopping. And that condition was 100% the choice of Martin's. No matter what happened prior to that point Martin decided to straddle Zimmerman, pin him to the ground, and punch him in the face repeatedly.

Quote:
As stated, if Martin was THAT suspicious, then Zimmerman knowingly went towards trouble. You keep subscribing to Martin being "Crazy" for thinking that some random guy in a parked car is some killer when in fact Zimmerman killed him.


You miss the point. I'm saying that this would be crazy if it were true that Martin fled from Zimmerman because he thought Zimmerman was some kind of crazed killer or something. I'm not saying that Martin was crazy. I'm pointing out the flaw in the assumption being made by the other side. If I were to speculate, I would speculate that Martin *didn't* think Zimmerman was a scary potential killer. I think he believed that Zimmerman was exactly what he was: A member of the watch. And Martin realized that someone on the watch spotted him while he was poking around in the yards of houses along his route home. He ran to avoid "getting in trouble" for what he was doing. He didn't head directly home because he didn't want the watch guy seeing which home he was living in and "getting in trouble". So he went in a different direction, or hid. Then, for whatever reason, he decided to jump Zimmerman so as to prevent him from following him home. He may have thought if he beat up this nosy neighbor, he could get away and wouldn't get in trouble.

Does that makes sense? Not from a responsible adult point of view. But to some kid with a history of vandalism, psuedo-gang-banging, and fighting? It might just make complete sense. Doubly so when Martin is a 6 foot tall athletic teenager and Zimmerman looks like an easy target (5ft 9, kinda pudgy). Martin may have thought he could easily take the wanna-be cop and get him off his back. Did that happen? I don't know. But unlike you, I'm not discounting the possibility. And that possibility seems far more likely than the idea that Martin believed that Zimmerman was a crazed killer, and ran from him in fear for his life.

Regardless of why he did what he did, it's clear that Martin did *not* head directly home. So there was some reason he lingered in the area. We can speculate about why, but we really do have to abandon this silly idea that Martin was just trying to get home and Zimmerman chased him down and killed him. The evidence simply does not support that at all.

Quote:
As I said, I think Zimmerman caught up with him and started fighting him.


Again. Not possible if Martin was actually heading home the entire time. You need to drop this assumption that there was a pursuit the entire time. The location of the shooting perfectly supports the claim that Zimmerman lost Martin and stayed in the area where he lost sight of him and then ran into him again in that area several minutes later. It absolutely does *not* support the claim that Martin continued to walk home and Zimmerman some how caught up to him and engaged him in a fight. There's too much time and not enough distance.

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 4:19pm by gbaji


Gbaji,

If he had a crowbar, some spray paint and other tools, you and everyone on his defense would say "He was about to commit a crime. Why else would he have those tools?" Am I right?

I'll just address comments one by one since you have a tendency to avoid comments.
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#100 Jul 10 2013 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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The Police dispatcher didn't just tell Zimmerman that "you don't need to [follow] him". The dispatcher flat out told Zimmerman to stay where he was so that the arriving police could talk to him, and when Zimmerman ignored that, the dispatcher asked if there was a front gate, and told Zimmerman several times to go to the front gate and meet the police cars there, instead of following [Martin]. The dispatcher stressed several times that the police would handle it from here, that the police cars were nearly there, and that Zimmerman ought to go meet the police as his next action.
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#101 Jul 10 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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The dispatcher flat out told Zimmerman to stay where he was so that the arriving police could talk to him, and when Zimmerman ignored that, the dispatcher asked if there was a front gate, and told Zimmerman several times to go to the front gate and meet the police cars there, instead of following [Martin].
None of that happened. The dispatcher said once that Zimmerman didn't need to follow, and then asked if he'd like to meet with the officers, making several suggestions of where to do so, and the call ended with Zimmerman giving them his phone number so the cops could call him when they were in the area.

The transcripts are available online.
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