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#77 Jun 28 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If it weren't as such, then there should be more information explaining what can or can not be at what level.

I disagree with your reading of the Tenth but it's sort of moot. Determining the grey areas is the point of judicial review.

I understand the concept of abiding by a set of rules, but when the "grey area" absorbs that much resources, it's time to simply redefine it. We should argue if we want the change, not if the change is supported by an outdated ambiguous set of rules that don't directly apply to today, just to argue if want the change.
#78 Jun 28 2013 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I understand the concept of abiding by a set of rules, but when the "grey area" absorbs that much resources, it's time to simply redefine it.

There's a process for that call constitutional amendments.

It's less resource consuming to have judicial review.
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#79 Jun 28 2013 at 8:18 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I understand the concept of abiding by a set of rules, but when the "grey area" absorbs that much resources, it's time to simply redefine it.

There's a process for that call constitutional amendments.

It's less resource consuming to have judicial review.


Not when you're making the same argument for over a decade, with flip flop court decisions in the middle. There is absolutely no logical argument to want to argue the "founding fathers point of view" on a relevantly "new" issue just to argue to the actual point as opposed to simply arguing the actual point. If you want to amend the constitution, then fine. However, when the amendments get to the point, where they practically overwrite the original document, we're only keeping the original document for "keeps sake".

I understand the value of history, but this is ridiculous.
#80 Jun 28 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I understand the concept of abiding by a set of rules, but when the "grey area" absorbs that much resources, it's time to simply redefine it.

There's a process for that call constitutional amendments.

It's less resource consuming to have judicial review.
Not when you're making the same argument for over a decade, with flip flop court decisions in the middle.

No, honestly. Judicial review is faster and less resource consuming.

Look at how many laws the SCotUS has found unconstitutional since our nation's founding vs how many times the Constitution has been amended.
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#81 Jun 28 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
No, honestly. Judicial review is faster and less resource consuming.

Those judges may be more expensive, but at least you only need to buy 5 of them.

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#82 Jun 28 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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With how things are going, I'm sure they'll be the next Steam collectable.
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#83 Jun 28 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I don't have a problem with the argument for individual state freedom or the conclusion. I have a problem with labeling it "unconstitutional". It is not unconstitutional to have a federal mandate.

It certainly can be.
Amendment No. 10 wrote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.



Our interpretation of that is completely different. I interpret that as saying that IF the US hasn't delegated powers by the constitution or prohibited it to the states, then the states and/or the people have the authorization to operate off of said powers.

That doesn't prevent the US from federally mandating a traditionally state power. It's essentially saying that it's either one or the other. If it isn't already taken care at the federal level, then it's at the state level. That doesn't prevent powers from changing from/to state and Federal levels.


Sure. But the power has to be granted to the federal government by the constitution. The US can't just pass a federal law and proclaim that it's now taken that power from the states. Or at least, it should not be able to do so without running afoul of the 10th amendment. So it is unconstitutional if the federal mandate cannot be tied directly to a power granted to it by the constitution.

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Given that the first condition is at the federal level, I assume that the federal preference outweigh the states. If it weren't as such, then there should be more information explaining what can or can not be at what level.


But just to make this as clear as possible. This does not mean that "federal law trumps state law". It means "federal law that reflects a power granted to the US by the constitution trumps state law". The federal government cannot pass a law that requires that all public schools must teach evolution, for example. Because nowhere in the constitution does "provide public education to the masses" exist as a power or authority of the federal government. It can, however, under a combination of tax and commerce powers (which it does have), direct tax funds to a program consisting of grants to public schools providing them funding *if* they have curriculum which teaches evolution.

It's why the federal government exercises most of its power via funding and not direct legislation. The federal government can't pass a national speed limit and force the states to comply. It can provide funding for highways, and attach a speed limit requirement to that funding though. That's how the federal government gets around the 10th amendment. It doesn't mandate anything directly. It requires it as a condition of funding for something the states want.

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This is exactly what I'm talking about. People having different interpretations (right or wrong, intentional or not). We need to just start over.


Unless you could show that what we'd create by starting over would have less gray areas and disagreements, I'm not sure how productive that would be. Baby's and bathwater, right?
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#84 Jun 28 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I understand the concept of abiding by a set of rules, but when the "grey area" absorbs that much resources, it's time to simply redefine it.

There's a process for that call constitutional amendments.

It's less resource consuming to have judicial review.
Not when you're making the same argument for over a decade, with flip flop court decisions in the middle.

No, honestly. Judicial review is faster and less resource consuming.

Look at how many laws the SCotUS has found unconstitutional since our nation's founding vs how many times the Constitution has been amended.



I'm not denying that their review may not be cheaper and/or quicker, but the current system that we're in to allow them to review it is most definitely not the most resourceful.

Educate me. Didn't someone say that the SCOTUS can't just make a change to an "unconstitutional" law even though it's openly practiced? That's being reactive instead of proactive. The SCOTUS at any given time should be able to say "Law x is unconstitutional, I propose a change" then bam, then have it changed in less than a month.

There should be no reason why a group of people should have to "fight the system" (progressively) for years/decades to change something that ultimately gets changed at the end. Especially social issues like SSM. Absolutely nothing legal has changed over the years to automagically make it no longer constitutional. Which brings me back to my point. People are simply abusing the ambiguously written law for personal political motives.
#85 Jun 28 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Educate me. Didn't someone say that the SCOTUS can't just make a change to an "unconstitutional" law even though it's openly practiced? That's being reactive instead of proactive.

Well, yeah. The courts' job is to address the cases put before them, not to wander the countryside looking for laws they feel are wrong.
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#86 Jun 28 2013 at 7:40 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
Sure. But the power has to be granted to the federal government by the constitution. The US can't just pass a federal law and proclaim that it's now taken that power from the states. Or at least, it should not be able to do so without running afoul of the 10th amendment. So it is unconstitutional if the federal mandate cannot be tied directly to a power granted to it by the constitution.


Sure it can, that's what the 10th amendment is for. It says that if the federal government doesn't explicitly cover a power, then it's implicitly left to the states and the people. No where does it state that the Federal government can or can not seize any power.

If you want to believe Jophiel's interpretation of the 10th amendment, then you have to show where the constitution explicitly defines what power can or can not be held at what level. Else, you can't say that a particular action is "unconstitutional" to be held at a certain level without any baseline to compare it to. Your only argument would be "We've always done it that way", which equates to "if it's in current practice, then it is correct". That mentality completely contradicts the concept of changes and amendments in the constitution.

Gbaji wrote:
But just to make this as clear as possible. This does not mean that "federal law trumps state law".


You're right. It doesn't. You can add to, but you can't take away.

Gbaji wrote:
Unless you could show that what we'd create by starting over would have less gray areas and disagreements, I'm not sure how productive that would be. Baby's and bathwater, right?


We wouldn't be wasting time debating the amendments, i.e. the whole 2nd amendment fiscal. Does gun control infringe on the 2nd amendment? Have a "final" argument and make it specifically clear on what type of gun control on current weapons infringe or do not infringe on your right to bear arms. As a result, no more wasted energy on debating after every mass shooting.

As of now, there is a ton of grey area in gun control because the 2nd amendment was written at a different time for a different purpose and is being pigeon holed in today's society.

Of course, people will always have the freedom to fight any change, but the difference is that the law is based on TODAY'S perspective on life and not 200 years ago when the argument in question was not in question. There's no "guessing" what the founding fathers meant, because it's irrelevant. That alone is the majority of the ambiguity. "You have the right to bear the following arms with the said restrictions". Done.

JOphiel wrote:
Well, yeah. The courts' job is to address the cases put before them, not to wander the countryside looking for laws they feel are wrong.


Which is why waiting till that magical time when the SCOTUS decides to address something is less efficient than simply redefining everything to today's society. In the meantime, time, money, effort along with other resources are wasted, when the SCOTUS could simply intervene an end it early.

Maybe it's the Army in me, but I hate wasting time and being reactive. There is absolutely no reason why the SCOTUS can't be proactive.
#87 Jun 28 2013 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you don't really understand that "federal law" and "the US Constitution" are two different things?
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#88 Jun 28 2013 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Sure. But the power has to be granted to the federal government by the constitution. The US can't just pass a federal law and proclaim that it's now taken that power from the states. Or at least, it should not be able to do so without running afoul of the 10th amendment. So it is unconstitutional if the federal mandate cannot be tied directly to a power granted to it by the constitution.


Sure it can, that's what the 10th amendment is for. It says that if the federal government doesn't explicitly cover a power, then it's implicitly left to the states and the people. No where does it state that the Federal government can or can not seize any power.


Let me see if I can clarify. It doesn't say that. It says that unless the US Constitution grants the federal government power over a given issue, than that power belongs to the state. "Federal government" Is not "US Constitution". "Federal law" is not "US Constitution". The US Constitution is a relatively small document that contains a very short list of rules about the makeup of our federal government, the powers each part of that government has, and a set of enumerated amendments which serve to either detail limits on that power, or otherwise address changes made to the text of the document over time (for correction or clarity or just cause people wanted something added/removed).

Federal law is a body of legislation that contains millions of lines of text and covers everything that the US legislature has passed since the nation was formed. One is not the other. Your interpretation of the 10th amendment would make it meaningless because the federal government would gain power over something any time it passed a law about that thing. Since the presumed purpose of the 10th amendment is to allow us to know what things the federal government isn't allowed to do, that can't possibly be the correct interpretation.

Quote:
If you want to believe Jophiel's interpretation of the 10th amendment, then you have to show where the constitution explicitly defines what power can or can not be held at what level.


Um... Have you read the constitution:

Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution

Quote:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, ********* dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.



Those are the powers that the constitution grants to the US government (legislature actually, but we were talking about the passage of laws here). You really didn't know this?


Edited, Jun 28th 2013 7:15pm by gbaji
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#89 Jun 28 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you don't really understand that "federal law" and "the US Constitution" are two different things?


I'm fully aware of that, I just misused the words in context. I'll be more accurate from now on.

Gbaji wrote:
Let me see if I can clarify. It doesn't say that. It says that unless the US Constitution grants the federal government power over a given issue, than that power belongs to the state.


No. That's your interpretation, hence why the constitution needs to be more objective. I see nothing in the 10th amendment that favors your interpretation over mine, other than you're for small government, hence favors your own interpretation.

Gbaji wrote:
Your interpretation of the 10th amendment would make it meaningless because the federal government would gain power over something any time it passed a law about that thing. Since the presumed purpose of the 10th amendment is to allow us to know what things the federal government isn't allowed to do, that can't possibly be the correct interpretation.


How are you coming to that conclusion? I don't see anywhere in the 10th amendment that suggests that. You're overlooking the phrase " nor prohibited to the States", which means that it doesn't have to be in the constitution. If the constitution does not explicitly give the power to the Federal Government NOR is prohibited to the States, then the power goes to the states. Nowhere in that amendment (at least what was quoted) does it say that the Federal or State levels can gain powers not mentioned in the Constitution.

It's a cover all statement. If it isn't covered by the Constitution for the Federal government, then it goes to the States and the people.

Gbaji wrote:

Those are the powers that the constitution grants to the US government (legislature actually, but we were talking about the passage of laws here). You really didn't know this?


Maybe you misunderstood me. Where in the constitution does it state that the Federal Government cannot mandate social laws? I wont deny that you know much more than me on this subject and almost opted not to get involved, but at least I'll learn something, even if it means embarrassing myself. So, I appreciate it if you address this topic unbiasedly. Given you are for small government, you will obviously argue your point, but I'm looking for something more fair and balanced.

See what I did there?
#90 Jun 29 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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A sexuality thread, monopolized by Alma in the first page?

Well, that escalated quickly.
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#91 Jun 29 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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Yet the conversation has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality.
#92 Jun 29 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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#93 Jun 29 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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And of course it isn't over.

Because those stalwart defenders of mawwiage just can't admit they lost this one. Even though they failed over and over to show how gays getting married damages the institution of marriage, the precious, precious children, or the American way... it just can't be over. /sob

I especially love that the anti-*** marriage coalition is called the Alliance Defending Freedom. I'm thinking of starting a serial killer support group and calling it We Love Peace.

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#94 Jun 29 2013 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Article wrote:
Attorneys with the Arizona-based Alliance Defending Freedom
Why am I not surprised?
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#95 Jun 29 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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Article wrote:
Attorneys with the Arizona-based Alliance Defending Freedom
Why am I not surprised?

Notable as the only anti-abortion league that accepts significant exceptions!

Mandatory abortions if you're brown.
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#96 Jun 29 2013 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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Less the group, more the location.
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#97 Jun 29 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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Well... yeah. I don't know anything about that group. I assume they're more-or-less exactly the same as every other fringe pro-life organization.
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#98 Jun 30 2013 at 5:01 AM Rating: Default
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All of this "back and forth" is wasting resources. Worst of all, is it possible to null previous marriages after granting them? I think that happened before. That's horrible. At least grandfather them in. I'm a huge proponent of the grandfather system!
#99 Jun 30 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Depends on your definition of nullify, I'd imagine. I don't think Prop 8 nullified the marriage licenses of SS couples that had married in CA before it was passed, it just ceased recognizing them. Those same married couples might have been recognized by other states.

That said, the "back and forth" is the very essence of a democracy. It's one of the prices you pay in having a peoples' government. There's just no way to have a government with less discourse and still maintain an acceptable level of organization. Unless you're going to advocate for a authoritarian regime, there's no going around it.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

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#100 Jun 30 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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I nominate myself the authority, if we go with an authoritarian regime!
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#101 Jun 30 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
All of this "back and forth" is wasting resources. Worst of all, is it possible to null previous marriages after granting them? I think that happened before. That's horrible. At least grandfather them in. I'm a huge proponent of the grandfather system!



In California, at least, the marriages that had already taken place were allowed to stand. Issuing of new marriage licenses was suspended until the Supremes arrived at their decision on Prop 8, and the circuit court rubber stamped that decision.

On a completely unrelated side note, it's been a crazy giddy weekend here.
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