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Nobody is listening to your telephone calls...Follow

#1 Jun 10 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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because, frankly, we have better ways to get your information now.

Anyone else reading it that way? After some of Mr. Ed's descriptions, That was just asking for a cross-thread reference, sorry. it almost seems like that. How old fashioned would tapping your phone lines be at a time like this anyway? Don't we all text everything? Kids these days...

Some excerpts:

Quote:
"The NSA has built an infrastructure that allows it to intercept almost everything. With this capability, the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested without targeting.


Why pay someone to listen to a phone when you can have a computer process the information instead?

Quote:
If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards.


I love his former firm's response to this as well:

Quote:
"If accurate, this action represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm," the statement said.


Because potentially facing execution for divulging information = not following mission statement. Smiley: rolleyes

In the end I can't say any of this was all that surprising. I mean, you'd except if some 16 year old can do it you'd hope the government could do it better. I'm still shaking my head at the sound bite from Obama's speech though. Seems a bit out of touch with modern communication methods. Perhaps that was why he said it, I dunno.

Did we have a thread about this? I couldn't find it, but I seem to remember talking about stuff at some point. Part of a derail?
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#2 Jun 10 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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No dedicated thread on it. You might be confusing the thread about Manning and the diplomatic info dumps.

"No one is listening to your telephone calls" is a bit of a straw man since that was never really the argument. On the other hand, since most people have no idea what the argument is, I suppose you'd want to define it on your terms. Before they start assuming the NSA must be listening to your phone calls.
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#3 Jun 10 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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They're not listening that closely if I'm still not in jail.
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#4 Jun 10 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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Are there people who actually thought that communication in general wasn't monitored by the government?
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#5 Jun 10 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Probably the same people who think their facebook page is private.
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#6 Jun 10 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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But I can download that app that lets me see who is checking my profile!!!Smiley: rolleyes
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#7 Jun 10 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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If Uncle Sam wants to catch us being bad Americans, then it's spies should be ingesting and digesting our forum posts.


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#8 Jun 10 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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You assume we're not?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#9 Jun 10 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Of course they're not. What government employee would just sit around reading and posting on Zam all day?
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#10 Jun 10 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
You assume we're not?

Nice cover...Smiley: rolleyes
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#11 Jun 10 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Before they start assuming the NSA must be listening to your phone calls.

That almost sounds preferable.

Almalieque wrote:
But I can download that app that lets me see who is checking my profile!!!Smiley: rolleyes


All data collected through Friendstracker is the property of GlobalFriedFoods Inc. and may be transferred or resold at our discretion.
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#12 Jun 10 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
You assume we're not?
Nice cover...Smiley: rolleyes

Initiate Code: 'Permaban'... Elinda knows too much...
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#13 Jun 10 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
"No one is listening to your telephone calls" is a bit of a straw man since that was never really the argument. On the other hand, since most people have no idea what the argument is, I suppose you'd want to define it on your terms. Before they start assuming the NSA must be listening to your phone calls.


Doesn't help that the media continually conflates actual overseas wiretapping operations (and domestic via FISA requests) with the slurping up of phone log metadata. It's almost comical how ubiquitous this is and even when some expert they're interviewing tells them straight out that they are two different things, they'll turn to the camera at the end of the segment and make the same incorrect claim.
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#14 Jun 10 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
They're not listening that closely if I'm still not in jail.


Elinda wrote:
If Uncle Sam wants to catch us being bad Americans, then it's spies should be ingesting and digesting our forum posts.


Ya know how more than one poster has been takin in for questioning after making forum posts? The spooks are doing their job.
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#15 Jun 10 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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As long as they're getting the data from the ISPs and Internet sites it's not a big deal.

1 - There are several thousand people with my name in the country, and there's not really any way to tie an SSN to someone's Facebook page
2 - Google thinks I'm a 24 year old single male

I'm a bit miffed on behalf of other people, but I'm not surprised.
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#16 Jun 11 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Most of the internet thinks I'm either a six year old girl or an eighty year old man if my spam folder is to be believed.
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#17 Jun 11 2013 at 7:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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And in real life, you're both!
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#18 Jun 11 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Get off my lawn, you have cooties.
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#19 Jun 11 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can't hold my bladder, so the tea party is canceled.

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#20 Jun 11 2013 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
And in real life, you're both!

Open your mind.....


Edited, Jun 11th 2013 3:37pm by Elinda
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#21 Jun 11 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Doesn't help that the media continually conflates actual overseas wiretapping operations (and domestic via FISA requests) with the slurping up of phone log metadata. It's almost comical how ubiquitous this is and even when some expert they're interviewing tells them straight out that they are two different things, they'll turn to the camera at the end of the segment and make the same incorrect claim.

Not really much of a distinction, is it? "We drive by every house and when we see a car with an out of state plate, we search it, but we're not searching all of your cars, so relax".

Anyway, tempest in a boring teapot. Not new, no one cares. Populace and courts sufficiently unconcerned with civil liberties for this to be anything. GOP whining about privacy issues is at best comical, at worst harmful to them because the core of their national security strategy is widespread surveillance of US Citizens. Not that it's a partisan thing, that's just the governing philosophy of sigint these days. This story also ignores the tiny issues of when analysts want something and obtain it without going through FISA or other legal means. Which only happens about 50,000 times a day.
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#22 Jun 11 2013 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Google thinks I'm a 24 year old single male

Given how good their analytics team is, they probably know exactly who you are and when your next **** will be within a 9 minute margin of error. Your profile is there for you, and people you know, not them.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#23 Jun 11 2013 at 6:45 PM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
Doesn't help that the media continually conflates actual overseas wiretapping operations (and domestic via FISA requests) with the slurping up of phone log metadata. It's almost comical how ubiquitous this is and even when some expert they're interviewing tells them straight out that they are two different things, they'll turn to the camera at the end of the segment and make the same incorrect claim.

Not really much of a distinction, is it? "We drive by every house and when we see a car with an out of state plate, we search it, but we're not searching all of your cars, so relax".


Except for the "drive by" part though. It's more like "we have a database which includes everyone's license, ID, vehicle registration, etc. We periodically use that data base to search against new want and warrants in order to locate people we're looking for". The question is at what point *your* data is being used/searched, and whether that really represents some violation of privacy. The reality is that your data is being accessed and compared against some search parameters all the time for any of a number of different purposes, most of which aren't remotely national security related. Every time some search is run, it has to look at your metadata to *not* achieve a match. Does that mean that your rights are being violated? Of course not.

But because it's a spooky organization like the NSA instead of the marketing department for Sears doing it, we get all outraged about it.

Quote:
GOP whining about privacy issues is at best comical, at worst harmful to them...


The really comical part is the outrage among Democrats and liberals though. The amount of GOP/conservative whining about this is about the same as it was when this issue was raised when Bush was president. Slightly higher due to the partisan aspects of it, but only somewhat. The delta on the other side of the political fence is pretty staggering though. Folks on the left who were screaming bloody murder at the mere hint that the NSA might be broadly tapping into this metadata back when Bush was in charge are now either defending it or staying suspiciously silent now.

It's not hard to see which side is viewing this through a thick partisan lens. And it isn't conservatives.

Quote:
Not that it's a partisan thing, that's just the governing philosophy of sigint these days.


Correct. The reasonable people on both side recognize the need for this and it only appears bad when deliberately framed that way by seemingly panicked pundits. What's partisan is when/how those pundits choose to appear panicked.
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#24 Jun 11 2013 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Google thinks I'm a 24 year old single male

Given how good their analytics team is, they probably know exactly who you are and when your next sh*t will be within a 9 minute margin of error. Your profile is there for you, and people you know, not them.


What's more disturbing is that iTunes thinks I'm interested in the new Black Sabbath release.

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#25 Jun 11 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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I wish you guys wouldn't let gbaji play with analogies.
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#26 Jun 11 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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What other ogies would he play with?
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#27 Jun 11 2013 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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Well, his usual demogogies and ideologies, for a start.

And I hear tell he's quite partial to pierogies?
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#28 Jun 11 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Well, his usual demogogies and ideologies, for a start.

And I hear tell he's quite partial to pierogies?


That was before he saw the cook hocking loogies into them.
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#29 Jun 11 2013 at 11:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pew Research wrote:
A majority of Americans – 56% – say the National Security Agency’s (NSA) program tracking the telephone records of millions of Americans is an acceptable way for the government to investigate terrorism, though a substantial minority – 41% – say it is unacceptable. And while the public is more evenly divided over the government’s monitoring of email and other online activities to prevent possible terrorism, these views are largely unchanged since 2002, shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
[...]
Currently 62% say it is more important for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats, even if that intrudes on personal privacy. Just 34% say it is more important for the government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats.


I wouldn't expect much of anything to change soon. And I'd expect that, out of that 41%, a considerable percentage only disapprove in some abstract way and not enough to vote for some pro-privacy libertarian or whatever.
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#30 Jun 11 2013 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ya know how more than one poster has been takin in for questioning after making forum posts? The spooks are doing their job.


No we aren't. You imagined it. We don't exist, we're just weather balloons.
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#31 Jun 12 2013 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Google thinks I'm a 24 year old single male

Given how good their analytics team is, they probably know exactly who you are and when your next sh*t will be within a 9 minute margin of error. Your profile is there for you, and people you know, not them.


What's more disturbing is that iTunes thinks I'm interested in the new Black Sabbath release.
you should be, Sabbath is awesome.
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#32 Jun 12 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Samira wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Google thinks I'm a 24 year old single male

Given how good their analytics team is, they probably know exactly who you are and when your next sh*t will be within a 9 minute margin of error. Your profile is there for you, and people you know, not them.


What's more disturbing is that iTunes thinks I'm interested in the new Black Sabbath release.
you should be, Sabbath is was awesome.
New Black Sabbath? Lol, them guys r way older'n me.
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#33 Jun 12 2013 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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The new album is actually pretty good, not on the level of the first 4 albums but they haven't gone down in a pile of **** like Metallica has done.
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#34 Jun 12 2013 at 7:26 AM Rating: Default
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I'm not sure why anyone cares that the government has our stuff. Well, I could see the concern with home **** videos, but other than that, I don't see the issue.

The biggest thing that I took away from this situation is how ignorant people are on security clearances. I don't mean that in a negative way, just an observation. There are people asking how a young person has access to such information when age is not a factor. I may or may not have the same clearance as him as well as 18 year olds.
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#35 Jun 12 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
The biggest thing that I took away from this situation is how ignorant people are on security clearances. I don't mean that in a negative way, just an observation. There are people asking how a young person has access to such information when age is not a factor. I may or may not have the same clearance as him as well as 18 year olds.


There's a massive difference between what your security clearance *is* and what you are actually given access to. Watching Snowden's interview and reading up a bit on him, I kinda get the impression that he had some access, but a lot of what he's saying is just BS he heard about and is repeating. I just get a big "he doesn't really know what he's talking about" vibe from him.
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#36 Jun 12 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
There's a massive difference between what your security clearance *is* and what you are actually given access to.


I'm pretty sure my dad had a relatively high security clearance when he was in the Navy. But he didn't have actual access to much of anything beyond the targeting system on the nuclear submarine he was stationed on.
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#37 Jun 13 2013 at 7:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
The new album is actually pretty good, not on the level of the first 4 albums but they haven't gone down in a pile of sh*t like Metallica has done.
All because of Napster.
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#38 Jun 13 2013 at 7:29 AM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
The biggest thing that I took away from this situation is how ignorant people are on security clearances. I don't mean that in a negative way, just an observation. There are people asking how a young person has access to such information when age is not a factor. I may or may not have the same clearance as him as well as 18 year olds.


There's a massive difference between what your security clearance *is* and what you are actually given access to. Watching Snowden's interview and reading up a bit on him, I kinda get the impression that he had some access, but a lot of what he's saying is just BS he heard about and is repeating. I just get a big "he doesn't really know what he's talking about" vibe from him.


I'm fully aware of the "Need to know" concept. That's how clearances work. Whether or not Snowden's claims are true is irrelevant to the fact that he's full of BS.
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#39 Jun 13 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Whether or not Snowden's claims are true is irrelevant to the fact that he's full of BS.


That's.... um.... deep man. Yeah. Deep.
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#40 Jun 13 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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That's.... um.... deep man. Yeah. Deep.


Right. It's way shallower than your earlier analysis of "sounds like ******** to me. I mean I know nothing about government service or how security clearances work, and I'm almost constantly wrong, but we'll assume I'd a good judge of character on this one, right?"
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#41 Jun 13 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Default
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That's.... um.... deep man. Yeah. Deep.


Right. It's way shallower than your earlier analysis of "sounds like bullsh*t to me. I mean I know nothing about government service or how security clearances work, and I'm almost constantly wrong, but we'll assume I'd a good judge of character on this one, right?"


There's some serious /whooshage going on right there.
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#42 Jun 13 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
The new album is actually pretty good, not on the level of the first 4 albums but they haven't gone down in a pile of sh*t like Metallica has done.
All because of Napster.
Their train wreck with Lou Reed permanently flipped the I don't give a **** about these guys anymore switch for me.

That they thought that **************************************************** that sounds like a metal band by the mentally handicapped with a ranting hobo for a vocalist[/url] was worth releasing and that nobody went "waitasecond guys, this ******* SUCKS" baffles me.
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#43 Jun 13 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Whether or not Snowden's claims are true is irrelevant to the fact that he's full of BS.


That's.... um.... deep man. Yeah. Deep.


Smasharoo wrote:

That's.... um.... deep man. Yeah. Deep.


Right. It's way shallower than your earlier analysis of "sounds like bullsh*t to me. I mean I know nothing about government service or how security clearances work, and I'm almost constantly wrong, but we'll assume I'd a good judge of character on this one, right?"


In case you failed to grasp what I was getting at, I was joking about the absurdity of Alma's statement given that the *only* thing we know from Snowden is his claims. So if he's "full of BS" from our perspective it can only possibly be because we don't believe his claims are true. Which makes one very relevant to the other. Thought it was pretty obvious really.


As far as my earlier analysis, it's because in any technical field you will run into people who have no clue how things really work or are used, but love to impress other people by making wild claims based on their half understanding off such things. His statements practically scream this. Long on speculation, but short on detail. I run into the same exact type of personality at various security seminars/conferences (or the hacker versions of such) all the time. The guy who is constantly boasting about all the stuff he knows or can do, but when you engage him about even basic stuff, it becomes obvious he doesn't know what the **** he's talking about. He knows just enough to pretend. Dunno. It's body language, verbal patterns/inflection, not sure, but I've seen it many times before, and it's always someone BSing. He's just taking his own words to seriously and saying them too dramatically for him to actually have experience with what he's talking about. He comes across as someone on the outside talking about what it would be like to be on the inside.

Had to put my finger on it directly, but people who actually have the power to infringe other people's privacy don't talk about it that way.
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#44 Jun 13 2013 at 10:10 PM Rating: Excellent
That was beautiful. awesome.
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#45 Jun 13 2013 at 11:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I keep reading the subject as "Nobby is listening to your telephone calls..."
#46 Jun 14 2013 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
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As far as my earlier analysis, it's because in any technical field you will run into people who have no clue how things really work or are used, but love to impress other people by making wild claims based on their half understanding off such things. His statements practically scream this. Long on speculation, but short on detail. I run into the same exact type of personality at various security seminars/conferences (or the hacker versions of such) all the time. The guy who is constantly boasting about all the stuff he knows or can do, but when you engage him about even basic stuff, it becomes obvious he doesn't know what the **** he's talking about.

Yes, this happens to everyone on the planet, all the time. Most people shrug it off and realize that people like to embellish to feel part of a group. For instance, everyone on this board just chuckles silently to themselves when you pretend to understand business issues. It's obvious you're a guy who does ad hoc support for end users for basically the one company you've ever worked for, but we let you ramble on about labor costs or whatever and semi seriously engage you in discussion. Because your credentials don't matter, no one cares, really. You frequently post laughable stuff about data or math, so it's clear to everyone that you aren't an engineer or a developer, but, again, we play along most of the time.

The problem for you is that YOU CANNOT TELL when someone is full of **** and when they aren't. You're bad at it. It's established. You engage in the very worst kind of selection bias where you only recall making correct guesses about things (no matter how vague, and you're almost always EXCEPTIONALLY vague) and ignore when you're wrong. This leads to a feedback loop of overconfidence and the tendency for you to assume everyone is full of **** all the time, as if there's a constant streaming subtext of "gotcha" missing information from every topic. There isn't. Being skeptical is a good starting position for most things, and that's fine. Claiming that said skepticism is the result of your skill at judging other people's communications is idiotic.

I've spent the better part of my professional life judging the confidence of reported information, and a good part of my academic life studying how well people can predict outcomes. I'll let you in on a dirty little secret of my former profession. People are fucking terrible at predictive analysis. I mean BAD. Human instincts in this regard are almost unerringly wrong. It's a significant problem in the intelligence community, and always has been. Current best practice is to aggregate opinions of highly skilled (well educated predictors you constantly require to be retrained in the most effective techniques) predictors. You know what? It still sucks. They're working on it, though. (Spoiler, I contribute in a minor way to ACE, the results aren't promising so far).

The reality of modern intel analysis is that almost all of it isn't "we carried out a complicated deep analysis of a lot of information and determined that the raised level of keyword chatter indicates a large event possibly occurring on Wednesday"...it's almost always "Bob called Jim and said 'hey we're still going to bomb that things on Wednesday, right." So, that's why I laugh when you claim to "know" someone's "full of it". Because you can't tell. I can't tell. No one can tell unless there's an obvious intentional false statement made. Perhaps old Eddie is under a wee bit of stress, what with facing the almost certain wrath of people with whom fucking is fairly regularly rewarded by death. Perhaps he's full of ****. We can't tell yet. Not enough information. We might never know. I will you grant you that he's an IT know it all without a significant education, and those sorts of people are frequently full of shit, and have hugely outsized notions of their own self importance, so we might want to lean towards him not having any idea what he's talking about. You know, based on our past experience with that personality type....



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#47 Jun 14 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
I keep reading the subject as "Nobby is listening to your telephone calls..."
Nobby the Spy.

He just gets more and more enigmatic.

Today's Quote: Bee the Future.
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#48 Jun 14 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
That was beautiful. awesome.
It was like rain on your wedding day.
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#49 Jun 14 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
In case you failed to grasp what I was getting at, I was joking about the absurdity of Alma's statement given that the *only* thing we know from Snowden is his claims. So if he's "full of BS" from our perspective it can only possibly be because we don't believe his claims are true. Which makes one very relevant to the other. Thought it was pretty obvious really.


As far as my earlier analysis, it's because in any technical field you will run into people who have no clue how things really work or are used, but love to impress other people by making wild claims based on their half understanding off such things. His statements practically scream this. Long on speculation, but short on detail. I run into the same exact type of personality at various security seminars/conferences (or the hacker versions of such) all the time. The guy who is constantly boasting about all the stuff he knows or can do, but when you engage him about even basic stuff, it becomes obvious he doesn't know what the **** he's talking about. He knows just enough to pretend. Dunno. It's body language, verbal patterns/inflection, not sure, but I've seen it many times before, and it's always someone BSing. He's just taking his own words to seriously and saying them too dramatically for him to actually have experience with what he's talking about. He comes across as someone on the outside talking about what it would be like to be on the inside.

Had to put my finger on it directly, but people who actually have the power to infringe other people's privacy don't talk about it that way.


Ironically, you're exactly what you claim. Anyone who knows anything about security clearances know that there are ways to address that problem without

a) unauthorized duplication
b) leaking aforesaid information

You're letting your own ignorance on the subject cloud your judgement. I don't have to make a wall of text in order to prove my knowledge on the subject. If being a Communications Officer in the United States Army isn't enough to make you think that I *probably* know what I'm talking about, then that's a personal problem.

The leaker stated that his goal was to notify the people of what was going on and let them decide if it's legal and/or legit. He could have done all of that without violating any rules, laws or regulations. Given the fact that he had done so, proves that he's full of BS. Either because he CHOSE to ignore those policies or not aware of those procedures. In any case, proves that he's full of BS.

I apologize for not writing a wall of text to prove myself to you.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 4:24pm by Almalieque
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#50 Jun 14 2013 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Today's Quote: Bee the Future.


Screenshot


A future devoid of Bees? Not on my watch!
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#51 Jun 14 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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