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Sexual Assaults in the militaryFollow

#27 Jun 05 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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One of the two people I mentioned earlier who were known rape victims was raped at a party of all known friends, by a friend, in a house owned by a friend. We'd all known each other for years, grown up together, etc.

She had drank a lot, so we made her slow down, eat, drink water, and put her to bed. Another friend stayed in the room with her, sleeping on the floor in case she needed anything.

After the friend was asleep, one of the guys at the party (who I had known for at least 5 or 6 years at that point), came in and raped her. It was never reported, and he doesn't consider it rape because she "consented." The friend on the floor didn't wake up.

He was completely sober, and had only stopped by the party after work. He was intending to drive home, so he had MAYBE two beers the entire time he was there.

This is someone I would have imagined incapable of doing this sort of thing.

The horrible reality is that a disgusting number of rapes (as if there's such a thing as a non-disgusting number of rapes) are committed by people who know the victim. Avoiding environments with strangers might reduce your chances of being raped (I don't know - maybe most non-forcible rapes are committed by known assailants), but it's not going to eliminate them.

And I really don't feel like engaging in victim blaming in either case. It's not a woman's fault she was raped just because she went to a party. It's the rapist's fault. She has the right to go wherever the **** she wants, do whatever the **** she wants, and not be blamed for being in an environment where it would be easier for some monster to harm her.
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#28 Jun 05 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Kakar wrote:
Or perhaps it's simply more publicized now.
Welcome to the twenty-four hour news cycle.
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#29 Jun 05 2013 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda
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#30 Jun 05 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wee disagree. I'm done arguing about it.
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#31 Jun 05 2013 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda


Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.
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#32 Jun 05 2013 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda


Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.

Any woman can, if she chooses, minimize her chances of getting raped,or robbed, or pregnant...and she doesn't even need the help of a big strong man.
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#33 Jun 05 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.
Not all rapists have a *****.
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#34 Jun 05 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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I'm done arguing about it.
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#35 Jun 05 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not all rapists have a *****.

The successful ones do!
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#36 Jun 05 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
I'm done arguing about it.
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#37 Jun 05 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Elinda wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.
Not all rapists have a *****.
I know. I was just being a dick.
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#38 Jun 05 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's just cocky.
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#39 Jun 05 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
.
Step one to avoid date-rape - Don't go drink in bars with strangers.


Yeah, or you know:


If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.


That would work, too.
But any situation not specifically mentioned here, is fine. Right?
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#40 Jun 05 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda


Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.

Any woman can, if she chooses, minimize her chances of getting raped,or robbed, or pregnant...and she doesn't even need the help of a big strong man.


Yes, but I'm not mad enough to blame a woman for putting herself in an environment where she's at a heightened risk for sexual assualt considering just about every one of those situations are ones it is perfectly reasonable for her to be in. Rape occurs in all environments, across socio-economic boundaries.

Getting in a car vastly increases my chance of dying as the victim of a car crash. But we don't blame passengers for being stupid enough to get in a car, because we accept that living your life requires certain risks.

The fact that we turn around and blame women for failing to eliminate all such risks from their own lives with regards to rape is a sign of extreme misogyny in our culture. Women cannot control whether they are raped. Women should not be saddled with the burden of having to prevent their own rapes. Mandating extreme social controls on women, and blaming them if they do not adhere to them, does nothing but shift blame off of the rapist.

Women should absolutely be taught ways to protect themselves. So should men.

What should not be the case is that an inability or failure to protect oneself be used to justify removing some of the burden of blame off of the rapist.
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#41 Jun 05 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


Yes, but I'm not mad enough to blame a woman for putting herself in an environment where she's at a heightened risk for sexual assualt considering just about every one of those situations are ones it is perfectly reasonable for her to be in. Rape occurs in all environments, across socio-economic boundaries.

Why would you ever blame a woman for being raped?

By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Quote:
What should not be the case is that an inability or failure to protect oneself be used to justify removing some of the burden of blame off of the rapist.
I agree. I never once alluded to such a thing.



Edited, Jun 5th 2013 5:26pm by Elinda
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#42 Jun 05 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Your 'precaution' is idiotic and unworkable. 'Don't go have fun with everyone else attending parties!" Instead of 'wear your seat belt to be safer in a car' you're going with 'don't ever drive!'. It's not a precaution, it's a lifestyle change. It's 'don't dress ****' in different language. You know what would be an even more effective precaution? Chastity belts! Why don't you want women to protect themselves with chastity belts? Oh, right, because it's fucking ludicrous in a modern context, just like asking young women not to drink with strangers.

You pulled me back in! I'm really done now.
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#43 Jun 05 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Conversely, if a guy went out, got drunk, and then had some girl haul him into court claiming that vaguely remembered *** he thought was consensual really wasn't. Well, I wouldn't have any sympathy for him.
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#44 Jun 05 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Your 'precaution' is idiotic and unworkable.
No it isn't. I was simply generalizing. Each situation is different. What I wasn't being was 'absolute' in a stupid statement that there are no ways for a woman to avoid getting raped.

As a young women I partied plenty. My girlfriends and I stuck together - specially when we were out partying. The buddy system is workable, easy and while not 100% foolproof, one fat mouthy friend with a biting tongue can scare off a lusty young man. Don't take a drink from someone if you didn't see the bartender pour it. Don't get so drunk you lose control of yourself. There are lots of things a woman can do. Sure, she may have to give up some liberties, through no fault of her own.

Someone here put up the statistics - 1 in 12 college woman are raped. They shouldn't have to be faced with this reality but they are.


Quote:
You pulled me back in! I'm really done now.
neaner, neaner, neaner....

Edited, Jun 5th 2013 5:58pm by Elinda
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#45 Jun 05 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
As a young women I partied plenty. My girlfriends and I stuck together - specially when we were out partying. The buddy system is workable, easy and while not 100% foolproof, one fat mouthy friend with a biting tongue can scare off a lusty young man.


*Writes Note* Fat chicks who know how to use their mouths stop potential rapists. Got it.
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#46 Jun 05 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's lookist. You're lookist. She could be a Womyn's Study major. That's guaranteed ***** repellant.
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#47 Jun 05 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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The buddy system is absolutely wiser than going along. But the problem is that it's really not much harder to spike two drinks than one.

And I think one of the significant aspects of disagreement here is that there are two major points of consideration for discussion, and they're being talked about simultaneously.

One is the day to day experience of women in our society, and their interactions with rape as a tangible risk.

The other is the issue of rape as a tangible risk in our society.

Language regarding things like "don't dress provacatively, don't get wasted, etc." is really damaging in the context of the society-wide issue, because it shifts the discussion away from rape prevention entirely. Because the problem with an approach that focuses on diminishing the chances of a specific woman being the victim is that it does nothing with reducing the number of victims overall. If you are at a party, and you and your 5 friends aren't letting a single one of you out of their sights, the ******* with the roofies is just going to find some other woman there. A rape still occurs, he just raped someone else. So the overall systemic issue isn't addressed at all. There will ALWAYS be a weakest member of a pack, and constant vigilance isn't possible. What we need to do is figure out ways, as a society, to stem the impulses that lead to rape in the first place.

I'm a big fan of blanket education regarding rape. If you let the conversation shift from "Women, here's how you protect yourself" to "People, this is how you protect each other," it just becomes far more effective (statistically proven), and I would hope (though have no confidence to say it does) it has an effect on diminishing the number of attempted rapes through education. So that ******** who don't understand what consent actually means systematically get taught it as part of typical social experience.

Right now, so much energy goes into teaching girls how not to get raped that very little goes into teaching both men and women how to look out for women around them and (by extension) teach widespread understandings of consent.
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#48 Jun 05 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.


Smasharoo wrote:
By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Your 'precaution' is idiotic and unworkable. 'Don't go have fun with everyone else attending parties!" Instead of 'wear your seat belt to be safer in a car' you're going with 'don't ever drive!'. It's not a precaution, it's a lifestyle change. It's 'don't dress ****' in different language. You know what would be an even more effective precaution? Chastity belts! Why don't you want women to protect themselves with chastity belts? Oh, right, because it's fucking ludicrous in a modern context, just like asking young women not to drink with strangers.


All women should be wearing one of these, obviously.
Screenshot


In all seriousness, Smash is absolutely right. The only real solution to rape is to get rid of rape culture which leaves people thinking it's ok to rape. I mean look at those Stuebenville football kids - they all seemed to genuinely think it was okay to drag an unconscious woman around raping her when they felt like it. They honestly seemed to think it was all good fun.

Well no wonder, when the media made it out like they were the poor sorry victims in the case. I mean, that's the root of the problem. As long as we have rape apologists out there tut tutting that boys will be boys and "if she didn't want to be raped why was she out having fun" etc. we will continue to have high levels of rape.

I mean, of course, like any crime there will likely always be outliers and anti-social douchebags that engage in this crime, but if we take some real steps to change the culture (which includes moving to talking about getting ******** to stop raping, vs getting women to "stop getting raped") then we can reduce this horrible crime.
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#49 Jun 05 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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I mean look at those Stuebenville football kids - they all seemed to genuinely think it was okay to drag an unconscious woman around raping her when they felt like it. They honestly seemed to think it was all good fun.

Well no wonder, when the media made it out like they were the poor sorry victims in the case.

You and I consume very different media.
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#50 Jun 05 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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That was definitely the popular sentiment of most media outlets, and Stubenville itself has been extremely vocal in defense of those ********. The coach who protected them didn't even lose his job.

And most of the rational, more liberal outlets were spending half their time reporting on the case, half their time reporting on rape culture.

At least, that was my experience.
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#51 Jun 05 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I mean look at those Stuebenville football kids - they all seemed to genuinely think it was okay to drag an unconscious woman around raping her when they felt like it. They honestly seemed to think it was all good fun.

Well no wonder, when the media made it out like they were the poor sorry victims in the case.

You and I consume very different media.


Quote:
CNN host Candy Crowley spoke about how emotional the atmosphere in the courtroom must have been, turning to correspondent Poppy Harlow, who responded:

I’ve never experienced anything like it, Candy. It was incredibly emotional — incredibly difficult even for an outsider like me to watch what happened as these two young men that had such promising futures, star football players, very good students, literally watched as they believe their life fell apart.

One of — one of the young men, Ma’lik Richmond, when that sentence came down, he collapsed. He collapsed in the arms of his attorney, Walter Madison. He said to me, “My life is over. No one is going to want me now.”

This prompted Crowley to inquire further:

The thing is, when you listen to it and you realize that they could stay until they’re 21, they are going to get credit for time served. What’s the lasting effect, though, on two young men being found guilty in juvenile court of rape, essentially?

For that insight, Harlow handed it off to legal contributor Paul Callan, who spoke about the “lasting impact” it will have on those football players:

But in terms of what happens now, yes, the most severe thing with these young men is being labeled as registered *** offenders. That label is now placed on them by Ohio law and, by the way, the laws in most other states now require such a designation in the face of such a serious crime.

That will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Employers, when looking up their background, will see they’re registered *** offender. When they move into a new neighborhood and somebody goes on the Internet where these things are posted. Neighbors will know they’re a registered *** offender.


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/amid-backlash-petition-calls-on-cnn-to-apologize-on-air-for-sympathizing-with-steubenville-rapists/



This is a summary of the CNN coverage. From my perspective, it's casting these young men as the victims - not as perpetrators of a heinous crime. All the sympathy goes to them, not the young women who was raped. No opprobrium. This is "mainstream" coverage. Obviously a lot of the coverage from blogs etc was hard on the rapists - but in the mainstream the message was essentially "awww those poor young men had their lives ruined"

Edited, Jun 5th 2013 11:45am by Olorinus
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