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Sexual Assaults in the militaryFollow

#1 Jun 04 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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McCain says women shouldn't join up

Quote:
Sen. John McCain, who built a potent political career on his record as a Vietnam veteran and ex-prisoner of war, on Tuesday told the leaders of every military branch he cannot in good conscience advise women to join the service as the military grapples to contain and curb its sexual assault epidemic.

"Just last night, a woman came to me and said her daughter wanted to join the military and could I give my unqualified support for her doing so. I could not," McCain, an Arizona Republican, said during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing examining whether all serious sexual crimes should be removed from the chain of command.



Can't say I disagree. I've got a niece that's nearly 10, and recently saw an air show that prompted her to tell her parents that she wants to join the Air Force. If she were graduating this year I have to say I would be concerned. While sexual assault in the military is certainly nothing new, it does seem to be getting worse rather than better. Or perhaps it's simply more publicized now. They keep talking about it but they don't seem to be doing anything significant to improve things.

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 4:38pm by Kakar
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#2 Jun 04 2013 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Realistically, that's meaningless. Rapes are just as common elsewhere in society, we just find them particularly insulting in this context. 1 in 4 women is raped at college. Are you going to tell your niece not to go to university, because the chance of her getting raped is too high?

The reality is that there's very, very little a woman can do to protect herself from rape. It's a fact that has been consistently upheld by studies, but is contrary to the public wisdom our culture holds. It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress, it's not possible for a woman to be constantly vigilant and slipping a date-rape drug into a drink is way too easy, and there are going to be many occasions in a woman's life where she'll be moving from point A to B alone.

What studies DO show is that peer education is far more effective to prevent rapes. You teach everyone how to recognize the signs of major risk factors for rape (signs of date rape drugs, signs that someone has past their limit with alcohol, signs that a guy is "circling" a girl, etc.). Programs on college campuses have found that teaching these courses, in conjunction with very active advocacy with regards to the actual threat of rape (as in, it's not at all unlikely that a girl at the party you are at could get raped that night. At all), have found that it does lead to a significant increase in rape prevention.

At the end of the day, rape is realistically an expression of gender dominance in the majority of cases. It's not about ***, it's about power and control.

You can't teach a girl to be seen as a human being in another person's eyes. The best you can do is teach boys to see everyone else as people. And that's clearly a very long term solution.

The reality is that I seriously doubt there's a significant difference in risk for woman who are actually out in the world, regardless of if they're working, at college, or in the military.

And if I had to choose one, I'd say that the military would be the best choice in the long term for a woman who wishes to learn how to actually defend herself from a would-be rapist. Because the reality is that all options suck, but this option is the only one that comes with combat training.
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#3 Jun 04 2013 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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1 in 4 women is raped at college.

1 in 1 DOJ statistic is being interpreted incorrectly in your post. The number is actually (foregoing the whole 'women don't admit to being raped out of shame' thing) around 1 in 12. Which is much less interesting. If you'd like more information about how the factoid you blindly splooged into your post without spending 5 seconds researching is incorrect, let me know.
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#4 Jun 04 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're right, I should have said sexual assault. That said, the statistics the CDC is telling me is 1 in 5 of all women, unsorted. I'm inclined to believe them.

I was specifically referencing the fact sheet, but I figured I'd link the whole page.

[EDIT]

The Department of Justice concurs.

Here's a study that was cited at the 1 in 4 statistic, but I'm having trouble finding it in the actual study.

Office of Justice Programs reference studies that say 1 in 5. Though they also have resources that say up to 27.5%.

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 9:22pm by idiggory
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#5 Jun 04 2013 at 7:18 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory wrote:
The reality is that there's very, very little a woman can do to protect herself from rape. It's a fact that has been consistently upheld by studies, but is contrary to the public wisdom our culture holds.


WTF? Being a victim of a crime does not mean that there aren't things women (and men for that matter) can do to protect themselves from rape. You're obviously just making up stuff to support your claim.

idiggory wrote:
It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress,


Is there a correlation between sexual harassment and sexual assault?

idiggory wrote:
It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress, it's not possible for a woman to be constantly vigilant and slipping a date-rape drug into a drink is way too easy, and there are going to be many occasions in a woman's life where she'll be moving from point A to B alone.


Unless the bartender is drugging you, there are things you can do to prevent being a drugged. As a non-drinker, I've had people buy me drinks in attempt to see me drunk. I was smart enough not to drink them.

Since you're big on stats, I think most stats show that most rapes happen from known people, not strangers off the street.

idiggory wrote:
What studies DO show is that peer education is far more effective to prevent rapes. You teach everyone how to recognize the signs of major risk factors for rape (signs of date rape drugs, signs that someone has past their limit with alcohol, signs that a guy is "circling" a girl, etc.). Programs on college campuses have found that teaching these courses, in conjunction with very active advocacy with regards to the actual threat of rape (as in, it's not at all unlikely that a girl at the party you are at could get raped that night. At all), have found that it does lead to a significant increase in rape prevention.


So, there are things that a woman can do to help prevent being raped?

idiggory wrote:
At the end of the day, rape is realistically an expression of gender dominance in the majority of cases. It's not about ***, it's about power and control.


That depends on how literal you are defining "power and control". That's some psychological nonsense that society say to try to understand a rapist. I would argue that most rapes occur when a man is expecting *** and the woman disagrees/changes her mind. If the woman agreed, I would argue that there wouldn't have been a rape. However, if it were based on "power and control", then the rape would happen regardless of the woman's intention. I would agree in the cases where the victim is a minor, power and control is probably a larger factor.

idiggory wrote:
You can't teach a girl to be seen as a human being in another person's eyes. The best you can do is teach boys to see everyone else as people. And that's clearly a very long term solution.


False. You can very well teach women to respect themselves and be seen as humans in other eyes. What you meant to say is that, regardless on how a woman presents herself, that is not an excuse to rape her. At the same time, you can't argue that she can't do anything about her image.

idiggory wrote:
The reality is that I seriously doubt there's a significant difference in risk for woman who are actually out in the world, regardless of if they're working, at college, or in the military.


You're simply wrong. This goes back to DADT. The military is unique in living conditions and *** restrictions. While sexual harassment maybe prevalent everywhere, sexual assault definitely varies when you have sexually depraved half naked people living next to each other.

idiggory wrote:
And if I had to choose one, I'd say that the military would be the best choice in the long term for a woman who wishes to learn how to actually defend herself from a would-be rapist. Because the reality is that all options suck, but this option is the only one that comes with combat training.


Read above. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

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#6 Jun 04 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I feel stupider for reading even a few words of that post.
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#7 Jun 04 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You're right, I should have said sexual assault. That said, the statistics the CDC is telling me is 1 in 5 of all women, unsorted. I'm inclined to believe them.


But you were specifying "at college" not just "in total throughout their life".

Edit:
Seems that if you take those numbers you gave, and apply the percentages of the rapes that first occur during college aged, (say, 18-25) then that does put that number closer to 1 in 12 or 13.

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 9:27pm by TirithRR
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#8 Jun 04 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, all the other links I edited into my post were college-specific. Some say 1 in 5, some say 1 in 4. Either way, it's far, far higher than 1 in 12.
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#9 Jun 04 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, all the other links I edited into my post were college-specific. Some say 1 in 5, some say 1 in 4. Either way, it's far, far higher than 1 in 12.


Except those numbers didn't come from actual studies.


How extensive is rape among college women? wrote:
[...]the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of
college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of
a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of
completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educa-
tional institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.
[18]



Quote:
18. These projections are suggestive. To assess accurately the victimization risk for
women throughout a college career, longitudinal research following a cohort of
female students across time is needed
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#10 Jun 04 2013 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I feel stupider for reading even a few words of that post.


Why? Because Alma pointed out flaws in your statements?

Jesus, I feel dirty now...

Quote:
The reality is that I seriously doubt there's a significant difference in risk for woman who are actually out in the world, regardless of if they're working, at college, or in the military.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/06/military-sexual-assault-defense-department_n_1834196.html

You'd be wrong. According to that article, 1 in 3 women in the military are victims of sexual assault vs. 1 in 6 in the civilian world.

It's also clear from reading the article, and accounts by victims, that despite the token efforts by military brass there is still a lot of cover-up activity and lack of follow through in investigating and prosecuting attackers. And having been in the military, I don't really think the combat training you refer to would help any more than taking self defense or any sort of karate lessons. I say that as a former military member. Unless you end up in the Seals, Rangers, etc you don't get all that much combat training other than learning how to shoot and some basic hand-to-hand if you're Army or Marines.

So yeah, I'd rather she go to college.
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#11 Jun 04 2013 at 8:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, all the other links I edited into my post were college-specific. Some say 1 in 5, some say 1 in 4. Either way, it's far, far higher than 1 in 12.


Except those numbers didn't come from actual studies.


How extensive is rape among college women? wrote:
[...]the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of
college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of
a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of
completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educa-
tional institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.
[18]



Quote:
18. These projections are suggestive. To assess accurately the victimization risk for
women throughout a college career, longitudinal research following a cohort of
female students across time is needed


Every study, ever, uses statistical projections. And, yes, the more data you have over time makes for a better study.

That doesn't invalidate this research. That's an absurd stance.

All it says is that research with more data points would be preferable. In this case, the two principle questions that would need to be answered are whether or not the rate of rapes remains stable across years (which, given that each of these studies WAS conducted in different years, I'm guessing is either stable or on a slight decline), and the rate at which rapes are committed against victims previously targeted (which, if meaningful, would obviously influence the statistic with regards to number of women).

Also, the fact that they recommend further study isn't a flag for concern, it's basic procedure. Every study will end with a discussion of challenges they faced, how they addressed those challenges (if they could), and all factors that could affect their conclusions. They will supplement this with a call to action with regards to topic areas where data is lacking. For a study on something like this, longitudinal data is the natural conclusion. As it is for every study with an open-ended timeline. It's built into the central concept.

[EDIT]

And I'm willing to trust Kakar's link that the rate of assault is 1 in 3 for women in the military. The same link says it's 1 in 6 for civilians.

That said, the link does NOT say that 1 in 3 women in the military are raped while in the military, while on duty, by service members, etc. And to be clear, I'm talking about the item they actually cited, which has a link in their references section.

It's specifically stating the population of female veterans, 1/3 of which report a history of sexual abuse when they initially join (according to that same source).

You're completely ignoring the fact that there may be a significant correlation between past assault and a desire to join the armed forces.

The only statistics that source cite with regards to rapes internally is that estimates range from 20% to 48%. So, 1 in 5 (roughly civilian) to about 1 in 2 (way worse than civilian). College rape frequency is almost certainly higher than with civilians. Maybe it's lower, maybe it's higher. I don't really care which is the worse environment. Because my only point was that discouraging a young woman from entering into the armed forces because there's potential she could be raped is absurd when the clear alternative, college, is (at best) almost just as bad.

I'm inclined to believe it would be far healthier to give her your encouragement with whatever career path she chooses, with eyes wide open, so that if (god forbid) something terrible happens, she's not faced with a culture of "I told you so."




Also, no, I refused to respond to Alma because he was being a pig.

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 10:36pm by idiggory
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#12 Jun 05 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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McCain is pandering, disingenuously I might add, to the half the population. The old white man is unsure he can protect the feeble woman if she foolishly goes off to war. Oh my.


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#13 Jun 05 2013 at 6:19 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


The reality is that there's very, very little a woman can do to protect herself from rape. It's a fact that has been consistently upheld by studies, but is contrary to the public wisdom our culture holds.
Bull.

Quote:
It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress
Dress has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
It's not possible for a woman to be constantly vigilant and slipping a date-rape drug into a drink is way too easy, and there are going to be many occasions in a woman's life where she'll be moving from point A to B alone.
Step one to avoid date-rape - Don't go drink in bars with strangers.





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#14 Jun 05 2013 at 6:30 AM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I feel stupider for reading even a few words of that post.


I assure you that stupidity was already present. I feel confident that I addressed your issues. If you believe otherwise, please feel free to point out the flaws.
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#15 Jun 05 2013 at 6:32 AM Rating: Decent
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All it says is that research with more data points would be preferable.

There's a ton of data. The number for being the victim of a sexual assault while at college is about 1 in 12. You not understanding statistics doesn't imply a lack of data. Let it the fuck go. 1 in 1000 is too high of a number, it's just lazy and intellectually dishonest to use a bullsh*t manufactured shock statistic that should be next to a chart in USA today to try to make your point more convincing. It's already convincing, it doesn't require lazy lies that undermine it. 1 in 4 women who have attended college might have been victims of assault...in their lifetime. Assaulted while at university? Not the case. Actually one of the least likely places to be such a victim. While the age cohort is the most likely to experience being victimized, the occurrences are heavily weighted towards break periods. So heavily, in fact, that's more likely a woman will be assaulted home on break than at school.

Hysteria doesn't help.



Edited, Jun 5th 2013 8:41am by Smasharoo
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#16 Jun 05 2013 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Step one to avoid date-rape - Don't go drink in bars with strangers.


Yeah, or you know:


If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.


That would work, too.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#17 Jun 05 2013 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
.
Step one to avoid date-rape - Don't go drink in bars with strangers.


Yeah, or you know:


If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.


That would work, too.
Sure, if you're the raper, you know - don't rape. Most of us are looking at this from the other side. If you're simply a person that wants to avoid violence or unwanted sexual advances from others, avoiding getting drunk in strange bars will reduce your chances of that.

Telling my would be rapist in the moment not to rape me is not really the most effective method of avoiding the crime.

If you don't want your wallet stolen it's probably not a good idea to leave it on your table at the restaurant when you go to the bathroom. Or I suppose you could just make an announcement to the all in the dining room asking nicely that you'd like for no one to steal or tamper with your wallet while you step away to relieve yourself.

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#18 Jun 05 2013 at 6:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sure, if you're the raper, you know - don't rape. Most of us are looking at this from the other side. If you're simply a person that wants to avoid violence or unwanted sexual advances from others, avoiding getting drunk in strange bars will reduce your chances of that.

No, it probably won't. Most rapes aren't committed by drunken strangers, and the implication that the punishment for being a young woman who wants to drink and have fun and meet people she doesn't know is rape is honestly fairly insulting. Women are allowed to drink, wear whatever they want, flirt, have *** with strangers, change their minds mid *** act, etc. All without being raped. Would you advise people to "reduce their chances" of being car jacked by not driving?

If you don't want your wallet stolen it's probably not a good idea to leave it on your table at the restaurant when you go to the bathroom. Or I suppose you could just make an announcement to the all in the dining room asking nicely that you'd like for no one to steal or tamper with your wallet while you step away to relieve yourself.

Bad metaphor. Better metaphor "Dressing your wallet in a modest bonnet and full length dress will dissuade the wallet thieves"

Edited, Jun 5th 2013 8:48am by Smasharoo
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#19 Jun 05 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Sure, if you're the raper, you know - don't rape. Most of us are looking at this from the other side. If you're simply a person that wants to avoid violence or unwanted sexual advances from others, avoiding getting drunk in strange bars will reduce your chances of that.

No, it probably won't. Most rapes aren't committed by drunken strangers, and the implication that the punishment for being a young woman who wants to drink and have fun and meet people she doesn't know is rape is honestly fairly insulting. Women are allowed to drink, wear whatever they want, flirt, have *** with strangers, change their minds mid *** act, etc. All without being raped. Would you advise people to "reduce their chances" of being car jacked by not driving?
The quote I was responding to, mentioned date-rape.

Let's not call it a bar then, lets call it a frat house, or a bon-fire in the back forties. Any place young people congregate, and consume mind-altering stuff, there is a higher likely hood of one of them taking sexual advantage of another.

What I find insulting is that you think you have a clue about getting raped or not getting raped.
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#20 Jun 05 2013 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

Would you advise people to "reduce their chances" of being car jacked by not driving?
No but I might advice them to lock their car doors. I know, I know, we free citizens have every right to drive around with our car doors unlocked. But still if you're really worried about car-jacking, I'd probably forego that little right.

Or you know, I can just ask nicely for the car-jacker not to jack me. Smiley: rolleyes


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#21 Jun 05 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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What I find insulting is that you think you have a clue about getting raped or not getting raped.

Sure, I'm a not a woman and I've never been raped, so how could I possibly understand any of the social dynamics. What? Education? Meaningless! Rape sucks, sorry if something terrible happened to you. That said, being raped gives one no special insight into causes or risk factors, and if anything makes it almost impossible to objectively asses them.

So let's be clear, about the worst people to offer advice about reducing the instance of sexual assault are rape victims. It's the same reason we don't take car safety advice from people who were in horrible accidents instead of engineers.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#22 Jun 05 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Or you know, I can just ask nicely for the car-jacker not to jack me


No, you just accept the risk that bad things might happen and weight it against your fear of that bad thing. The fear of being car jacked is less than your desire to drive a car. It's the same thing with the "don't drink with strangers". The vast overwhelming number of women drinking with strangers....won't be raped. If the fear of the bad outcome was sufficient people would take your advice without needing it. Offering it adds fear without adding safety. It's worse than useless.
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#23 Jun 05 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:


So let's be clear, about the worst people to offer advice about reducing the instance of sexual assault are rape victims. It's the same reason we don't take car safety advice from people who were in horrible accidents instead of engineers.
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped. You're talking about 'incidences'. Go for it. That's what you do.

It's not gonna help me a lick when i have to decide if I'm going to go full -out drunk when I'm visiting a friend in a strange city and then, in the wee hours of the morning, will I take public transportation or a cap to my hotel room on the other side of town.


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#24 Jun 05 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

Or you know, I can just ask nicely for the car-jacker not to jack me


No, you just accept the risk that bad things might happen and weight it against your fear of that bad thing. The fear of being car jacked is less than your desire to drive a car. It's the same thing with the "don't drink with strangers". The vast overwhelming number of women drinking with strangers....won't be raped. If the fear of the bad outcome was sufficient people would take your advice without needing it. Offering it adds fear without adding safety. It's worse than useless.

It's useless to reduce risk?

i'd be pretty fearful of a person who's trying to coach me on personal safety and tells me there is nothing i can do to make my person safer.

The fear is already there Sugar.
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#25 Jun 05 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#26 Jun 05 2013 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's useless to reduce risk?

Your advice doesn't do that. It's based on a fantasy that doesn't exist in the real world. Sorry.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#27 Jun 05 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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One of the two people I mentioned earlier who were known rape victims was raped at a party of all known friends, by a friend, in a house owned by a friend. We'd all known each other for years, grown up together, etc.

She had drank a lot, so we made her slow down, eat, drink water, and put her to bed. Another friend stayed in the room with her, sleeping on the floor in case she needed anything.

After the friend was asleep, one of the guys at the party (who I had known for at least 5 or 6 years at that point), came in and raped her. It was never reported, and he doesn't consider it rape because she "consented." The friend on the floor didn't wake up.

He was completely sober, and had only stopped by the party after work. He was intending to drive home, so he had MAYBE two beers the entire time he was there.

This is someone I would have imagined incapable of doing this sort of thing.

The horrible reality is that a disgusting number of rapes (as if there's such a thing as a non-disgusting number of rapes) are committed by people who know the victim. Avoiding environments with strangers might reduce your chances of being raped (I don't know - maybe most non-forcible rapes are committed by known assailants), but it's not going to eliminate them.

And I really don't feel like engaging in victim blaming in either case. It's not a woman's fault she was raped just because she went to a party. It's the rapist's fault. She has the right to go wherever the **** she wants, do whatever the **** she wants, and not be blamed for being in an environment where it would be easier for some monster to harm her.
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#28 Jun 05 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Or perhaps it's simply more publicized now.
Welcome to the twenty-four hour news cycle.
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#29 Jun 05 2013 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda
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#30 Jun 05 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wee disagree. I'm done arguing about it.
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#31 Jun 05 2013 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda


Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.
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#32 Jun 05 2013 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda


Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.

Any woman can, if she chooses, minimize her chances of getting raped,or robbed, or pregnant...and she doesn't even need the help of a big strong man.
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#33 Jun 05 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.
Not all rapists have a *****.
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#34 Jun 05 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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I'm done arguing about it.
The only winning move is not to play.
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#35 Jun 05 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not all rapists have a *****.

The successful ones do!
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#36 Jun 05 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I'm done arguing about it.
The only winning move is not to play.
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#37 Jun 05 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Elinda wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.
Not all rapists have a *****.
I know. I was just being a dick.
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#38 Jun 05 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's just cocky.
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#39 Jun 05 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
.
Step one to avoid date-rape - Don't go drink in bars with strangers.


Yeah, or you know:


If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.


That would work, too.
But any situation not specifically mentioned here, is fine. Right?
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#40 Jun 05 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.
Yeah, there is something we can do.

You're the one ****-shaming. I said nothing about it being shameful to drink with strangers. It's not any more shameful than not locking your doors or living in Oklahoma.

You're putting rape into some special category of crime that makes it unavoidable. Nothing is unavoidable.

You should be sorry.





Edited, Jun 5th 2013 3:23pm by Elinda


Yes, rape is avoidable. If you avoid rapists.

If you figure out a way to identify those ahead of time, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Most of my friends are female.

They have dicks.

Any woman can, if she chooses, minimize her chances of getting raped,or robbed, or pregnant...and she doesn't even need the help of a big strong man.


Yes, but I'm not mad enough to blame a woman for putting herself in an environment where she's at a heightened risk for sexual assualt considering just about every one of those situations are ones it is perfectly reasonable for her to be in. Rape occurs in all environments, across socio-economic boundaries.

Getting in a car vastly increases my chance of dying as the victim of a car crash. But we don't blame passengers for being stupid enough to get in a car, because we accept that living your life requires certain risks.

The fact that we turn around and blame women for failing to eliminate all such risks from their own lives with regards to rape is a sign of extreme misogyny in our culture. Women cannot control whether they are raped. Women should not be saddled with the burden of having to prevent their own rapes. Mandating extreme social controls on women, and blaming them if they do not adhere to them, does nothing but shift blame off of the rapist.

Women should absolutely be taught ways to protect themselves. So should men.

What should not be the case is that an inability or failure to protect oneself be used to justify removing some of the burden of blame off of the rapist.
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#41 Jun 05 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


Yes, but I'm not mad enough to blame a woman for putting herself in an environment where she's at a heightened risk for sexual assualt considering just about every one of those situations are ones it is perfectly reasonable for her to be in. Rape occurs in all environments, across socio-economic boundaries.

Why would you ever blame a woman for being raped?

By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Quote:
What should not be the case is that an inability or failure to protect oneself be used to justify removing some of the burden of blame off of the rapist.
I agree. I never once alluded to such a thing.



Edited, Jun 5th 2013 5:26pm by Elinda
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#42 Jun 05 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Your 'precaution' is idiotic and unworkable. 'Don't go have fun with everyone else attending parties!" Instead of 'wear your seat belt to be safer in a car' you're going with 'don't ever drive!'. It's not a precaution, it's a lifestyle change. It's 'don't dress ****' in different language. You know what would be an even more effective precaution? Chastity belts! Why don't you want women to protect themselves with chastity belts? Oh, right, because it's fucking ludicrous in a modern context, just like asking young women not to drink with strangers.

You pulled me back in! I'm really done now.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#43 Jun 05 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Conversely, if a guy went out, got drunk, and then had some girl haul him into court claiming that vaguely remembered *** he thought was consensual really wasn't. Well, I wouldn't have any sympathy for him.
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#44 Jun 05 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Your 'precaution' is idiotic and unworkable.
No it isn't. I was simply generalizing. Each situation is different. What I wasn't being was 'absolute' in a stupid statement that there are no ways for a woman to avoid getting raped.

As a young women I partied plenty. My girlfriends and I stuck together - specially when we were out partying. The buddy system is workable, easy and while not 100% foolproof, one fat mouthy friend with a biting tongue can scare off a lusty young man. Don't take a drink from someone if you didn't see the bartender pour it. Don't get so drunk you lose control of yourself. There are lots of things a woman can do. Sure, she may have to give up some liberties, through no fault of her own.

Someone here put up the statistics - 1 in 12 college woman are raped. They shouldn't have to be faced with this reality but they are.


Quote:
You pulled me back in! I'm really done now.
neaner, neaner, neaner....

Edited, Jun 5th 2013 5:58pm by Elinda
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#45 Jun 05 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
As a young women I partied plenty. My girlfriends and I stuck together - specially when we were out partying. The buddy system is workable, easy and while not 100% foolproof, one fat mouthy friend with a biting tongue can scare off a lusty young man.


*Writes Note* Fat chicks who know how to use their mouths stop potential rapists. Got it.
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#46 Jun 05 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's lookist. You're lookist. She could be a Womyn's Study major. That's guaranteed ***** repellant.
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#47 Jun 05 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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The buddy system is absolutely wiser than going along. But the problem is that it's really not much harder to spike two drinks than one.

And I think one of the significant aspects of disagreement here is that there are two major points of consideration for discussion, and they're being talked about simultaneously.

One is the day to day experience of women in our society, and their interactions with rape as a tangible risk.

The other is the issue of rape as a tangible risk in our society.

Language regarding things like "don't dress provacatively, don't get wasted, etc." is really damaging in the context of the society-wide issue, because it shifts the discussion away from rape prevention entirely. Because the problem with an approach that focuses on diminishing the chances of a specific woman being the victim is that it does nothing with reducing the number of victims overall. If you are at a party, and you and your 5 friends aren't letting a single one of you out of their sights, the ******* with the roofies is just going to find some other woman there. A rape still occurs, he just raped someone else. So the overall systemic issue isn't addressed at all. There will ALWAYS be a weakest member of a pack, and constant vigilance isn't possible. What we need to do is figure out ways, as a society, to stem the impulses that lead to rape in the first place.

I'm a big fan of blanket education regarding rape. If you let the conversation shift from "Women, here's how you protect yourself" to "People, this is how you protect each other," it just becomes far more effective (statistically proven), and I would hope (though have no confidence to say it does) it has an effect on diminishing the number of attempted rapes through education. So that ******** who don't understand what consent actually means systematically get taught it as part of typical social experience.

Right now, so much energy goes into teaching girls how not to get raped that very little goes into teaching both men and women how to look out for women around them and (by extension) teach widespread understandings of consent.
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#48 Jun 05 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.


Smasharoo wrote:
By stating that there are precautions a person can take to avoid being a victim of crime is NOT blaming the victim for the crime.


Your 'precaution' is idiotic and unworkable. 'Don't go have fun with everyone else attending parties!" Instead of 'wear your seat belt to be safer in a car' you're going with 'don't ever drive!'. It's not a precaution, it's a lifestyle change. It's 'don't dress ****' in different language. You know what would be an even more effective precaution? Chastity belts! Why don't you want women to protect themselves with chastity belts? Oh, right, because it's fucking ludicrous in a modern context, just like asking young women not to drink with strangers.


All women should be wearing one of these, obviously.
Screenshot


In all seriousness, Smash is absolutely right. The only real solution to rape is to get rid of rape culture which leaves people thinking it's ok to rape. I mean look at those Stuebenville football kids - they all seemed to genuinely think it was okay to drag an unconscious woman around raping her when they felt like it. They honestly seemed to think it was all good fun.

Well no wonder, when the media made it out like they were the poor sorry victims in the case. I mean, that's the root of the problem. As long as we have rape apologists out there tut tutting that boys will be boys and "if she didn't want to be raped why was she out having fun" etc. we will continue to have high levels of rape.

I mean, of course, like any crime there will likely always be outliers and anti-social douchebags that engage in this crime, but if we take some real steps to change the culture (which includes moving to talking about getting ******** to stop raping, vs getting women to "stop getting raped") then we can reduce this horrible crime.
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#49 Jun 05 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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I mean look at those Stuebenville football kids - they all seemed to genuinely think it was okay to drag an unconscious woman around raping her when they felt like it. They honestly seemed to think it was all good fun.

Well no wonder, when the media made it out like they were the poor sorry victims in the case.

You and I consume very different media.
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#50 Jun 05 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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That was definitely the popular sentiment of most media outlets, and Stubenville itself has been extremely vocal in defense of those ********. The coach who protected them didn't even lose his job.

And most of the rational, more liberal outlets were spending half their time reporting on the case, half their time reporting on rape culture.

At least, that was my experience.
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#51 Jun 05 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I mean look at those Stuebenville football kids - they all seemed to genuinely think it was okay to drag an unconscious woman around raping her when they felt like it. They honestly seemed to think it was all good fun.

Well no wonder, when the media made it out like they were the poor sorry victims in the case.

You and I consume very different media.


Quote:
CNN host Candy Crowley spoke about how emotional the atmosphere in the courtroom must have been, turning to correspondent Poppy Harlow, who responded:

I’ve never experienced anything like it, Candy. It was incredibly emotional — incredibly difficult even for an outsider like me to watch what happened as these two young men that had such promising futures, star football players, very good students, literally watched as they believe their life fell apart.

One of — one of the young men, Ma’lik Richmond, when that sentence came down, he collapsed. He collapsed in the arms of his attorney, Walter Madison. He said to me, “My life is over. No one is going to want me now.”

This prompted Crowley to inquire further:

The thing is, when you listen to it and you realize that they could stay until they’re 21, they are going to get credit for time served. What’s the lasting effect, though, on two young men being found guilty in juvenile court of rape, essentially?

For that insight, Harlow handed it off to legal contributor Paul Callan, who spoke about the “lasting impact” it will have on those football players:

But in terms of what happens now, yes, the most severe thing with these young men is being labeled as registered *** offenders. That label is now placed on them by Ohio law and, by the way, the laws in most other states now require such a designation in the face of such a serious crime.

That will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Employers, when looking up their background, will see they’re registered *** offender. When they move into a new neighborhood and somebody goes on the Internet where these things are posted. Neighbors will know they’re a registered *** offender.


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/amid-backlash-petition-calls-on-cnn-to-apologize-on-air-for-sympathizing-with-steubenville-rapists/



This is a summary of the CNN coverage. From my perspective, it's casting these young men as the victims - not as perpetrators of a heinous crime. All the sympathy goes to them, not the young women who was raped. No opprobrium. This is "mainstream" coverage. Obviously a lot of the coverage from blogs etc was hard on the rapists - but in the mainstream the message was essentially "awww those poor young men had their lives ruined"

Edited, Jun 5th 2013 11:45am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky
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