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That Gamers Women Trope Thingie #2 is UpFollow

#77 May 30 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, I can believe that 47% of "gamers" are female. I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.


Or that 53% of Farmville players are male for that matter. Simply not enough violence and bikini-plate there. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:59am by someproteinguy
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#78 May 30 2013 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.


I doubt they are, though I'm not sure why that matters.

I also think that there's some chicken/egg stuff going on. I expect the overwhelmingly male-centric nature of most of the industry turns off prospective female gamers.

And on a personal note, I'm interested in more variety, myself. I watch the AAA scene converging into the bro shooter singularity, and it bums me out.

#79 May 30 2013 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.
I doubt they are, though I'm not sure why that matters.

I already added a bit to my previous post explaining why it matters. You just beat me in responding before my edit was done.
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#80 May 30 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, I can believe that 47% of "gamers" are female. I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.


Or that 53% of Farmville players are male for that matter. Simply not enough violence and bikini-plate there. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:59am by someproteinguy
This vid is sort of relevant, but not really. It is though timely and throws out some interesting game numbers. Also, it s a good comparison of different styles of gaming video-blogs.

What, no buttons?!


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#81 May 30 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Judging by the Omni-DD thread... I don't think 47% of PC gamers who actually own those games every played or installed them.

It's entirely possible that Rig 'n' Roll has a well developed ******* subplot that I've just never had the chance to explore.
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#82 May 30 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.
I doubt they are, though I'm not sure why that matters.

I already added a bit to my previous post explaining why it matters. You just beat me in responding before my edit was done.


Smiley: cool

Jophiel wrote:
Well, to grab a random example with Hitman: Absolution (since SE said it didn't meet expectations), I heard plenty of complaints about it. It wasn't open world enough, too much stealth vs disguise, checkpoint system, etc. What I never heard was anyone say "This sucks because Agent 47 should be trying to rescue his male lover". Likewise for Sleeping Dogs. Whatever complaints anyone had about it, I never heard "Needs *** romance" or "Main character should be a woman and strike up a romance with Emma Stone's character).

...wait, no, that would have been awesome...

Regardless, I don't think that pointing to missed goals is evidence that the primary AAA gamer demographic is clamoring for same-*** options in their games. I think they're received fairly well when offered but when dealing with "on rails plot" style gaming I don't think it's worth the investment to make four versions of the same game to meet all the pairing possibilities.


My point wasn't intended to show that missed sales goals are due to publishers flouting female gamers, but rather "Because many publishers don't seem to have a grasp of their audience or the appeal of their games, I don't think that claims based on their sales projections are relevant to this argument."
#83 May 30 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah but their "lack of grasp" appears to deal with mechanics that have nothing to do with gender or sexuality. I don't think you can discount "They want to appeal first and foremost to their primary demo" with "Yeah, but they're all dumb anyway".

Their primary demographic is unquestionably male and, statistically, will be majority heterosexual. Playing it safe within that demographic just makes sense. Where they miss the mark in that demographic isn't based on "Needs more women rescuing men" by any available evidence.
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#84 May 30 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah but their "lack of grasp" appears to deal with mechanics that have nothing to do with gender or sexuality. I don't think you can discount "They want to appeal first and foremost to their primary demo" with "Yeah, but they're all dumb anyway".

Their primary demographic is unquestionably male and, statistically, will be majority heterosexual. Playing it safe within that demographic just makes sense. Where they miss the mark in that demographic isn't based on "Needs more women rescuing men" by any available evidence.


Yes and no, it does and it doesn't. Playing it safe within your demographic can make sense all the way until you release a "me-too" CoD clone that doesn't have anything unique or fresh that makes it warrant a look.

You can try to reduce my argument by summarizing it with diminished, hyper-specific examples like "Needs more women rescuing men" all you want, but I'm clearly speaking to much larger, more generalized phenomena. There are myriad ways that games could benefit from the variety of more female-oriented content.
#85 May 30 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Playing it safe within your demographic can make sense all the way until you release a "me-too" CoD clone that doesn't have anything unique or fresh that makes it warrant a look.

Sure, but that's largely a mechanics argument, not a gender based one.

I'm not trying to reduce your argument, I was originally responding to a specific complaint: Lack of female roles and same-*** relationships. I assumed your replies were in regards to that. If you have some broad view to share with enough detail that people don't have to guess at what you mean, knock yourself out.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:38pm by Jophiel
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#86 May 30 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
This vid is sort of relevant, but not really. It is though timely and throws out some interesting game numbers. Also, it s a good comparison of different styles of gaming video-blogs.

What, no buttons?!

Elephant. Smiley: nod

It was a nice reminder of Nintendo's whole "this game isn't flashy or anything but it was cheap to make and good simple fun, so we sold about a bazillion copies of it, haha" thing they have going on. Also on that note, I've had tons of fun with Rollercoaster Tycoon III. Wasn't there a thread we had talking about the expensive graphics heavy games versus the simple cheap fun games? Something about tablet gaming taking over the world? Seems relevant again.

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#87 May 30 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
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Playing it safe within your demographic can make sense all the way until you release a "me-too" CoD clone that doesn't have anything unique or fresh that makes it warrant a look.

Sure, but that's largely a mechanics argument, not a gender based one.


Surely it's not too big a leap of logic that gender can also be a source for variety. Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.

Jophiel wrote:
I'm not trying to reduce your argument, I was originally responding to a specific complaint: Lack of female roles and same-*** relationships. I assumed your replies were in regards to that. If you have some broad view to share with enough detail that people don't have to guess at what you mean, knock yourself out.


Apologies - I had composed a post earlier citing a variety of areas for improvement that I just now realized I never actually posted. I've been considering my replies in terms of general sexism in the games industry, not any singular example.

But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

I think any such area could be a great way to inject some variety into the scene. It's sad that there are so few examples that I'd find such things novel. I also think that a great deal of progress could be made without impinging on that precious straight male demographic. It's just that nobody's ever even makes the faintest of overtures to female side of things.

Edited, May 30th 2013 4:00pm by Eske
#88 May 30 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I did play one game once that had a sausage slider. Smiley: grin Cant remember which it was though.
SRTT had a general purpose Sexiness slider. It applied to ******* for women and the ***** for men. Maybe that's the one you're thinking?
#89 May 30 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:


Surely it's not too big a leap of logic that gender can also be a source for variety. Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.



Do you think putting female soldiers into a game already full of prepubecent / man-childs who throw out sexist/racist remarks about once per minute is a good idea? I can already see how some places would spin it as adding female soldiers is bad becuase it promotes violence against women. I dont think its that they wont or cant add them its just why cause issues and controversy when your games already selling.
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#90 May 30 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test.


Does it count if they are talking about a zombie, that just happened to be male before the zombification?
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#91 May 30 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:


Surely it's not too big a leap of logic that gender can also be a source for variety. Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.



Do you think putting female soldiers into a game already full of prepubecent / man-childs who throw out sexist/racist remarks about once per minute is a good idea? I can already see how some places would spin it as adding female soldiers is bad becuase it promotes violence against women. I dont think its that they wont or cant add them its just why cause issues and controversy when your games already selling.


I can see the gamertags and PSN names on the bottom of the leaderboards now... millions of deaths, zero kills, innuendos galore.

Edit:
Honestly though, character models in CoD were never really that detailed for me to make a distinction that they are male or not. Usually I treat them as who ever is controlling the character on the other end. I never play multiplayer solo, I always had a party of friends with me. Solo multiplayer is boring...

Edited, May 30th 2013 4:16pm by TirithRR
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#92 May 30 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.

I'm not super familiar with COD/BF aside from "bang bang" but I'm fairly confident that the combat roles played in those games are not yet open for women. Although the Pentagon is planning on having women in front line combat roles, it's still in the "We're going to do this and we're planning and working with the separate military branches for it to happen" stages.

Quote:
Apologies - I had composed a post earlier citing a variety of areas for improvement that I just now realized I never actually posted. I've been considering my replies in terms of general sexism in the games industry, not any singular example.

Feminism is tearing our family apart Smiley: frown

I have nothing against expanded female roles in games. I assume that's a given. I do, however, understand why a game in which the emphasis is mechanics over plot (e.g. Hitman: Absolution) would choose the easiest possible plot path towards getting the ball rolling.
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#93 May 30 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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TF2 doesn't have female characters because Valve hates broads Smiley: frown
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#94 May 30 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Do you think putting female soldiers into a game already full of prepubecent / man-childs who throw out sexist/racist remarks about once per minute is a good idea? I can already see how some places would spin it as adding female soldiers is bad becuase it promotes violence against women. I dont think its that they wont or cant add them its just why cause issues and controversy when your games already selling.


1) Who cares? I play a lot of Call of Duty - it's not like the stuff that those folk say is going to get any worse. They're unceasingly racist, but I'd never make the case that the games shouldn't feature black characters because of it.
2) I already gave the retort-in-a-can to any complaints that it promotes violence against women: "It's already the reality in the US." Before you respond, remember that Call of Duty has already featured a level where you commit genocide on civilians in an airport. They also have one where a child gets blown up.

Tirith wrote:
Does it count if they are talking about a zombie, that just happened to be male before the zombification?


That depends - was it a cisgender zombie?

Edited, May 30th 2013 4:24pm by Eske
#95 May 30 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
TF2 doesn't have female characters because Valve hates broads Smiley: frown


I don't think the women in question would like that option. (possibly NSFW)
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#96 May 30 2013 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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MEDIC!
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#97 May 30 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.

I'm not super familiar with COD/BF aside from "bang bang" but I'm fairly confident that the combat roles played in those games are not yet open for women. Although the Pentagon is planning on having women in front line combat roles, it's still in the "We're going to do this and we're planning and working with the separate military branches for it to happen" stages.


Aye, I understand that. But I'm sure you also recognize how limp of an excuse that would be for not just putting 'em in the games already. Also of note: the multiplayer for these games really doesn't have much bearing on any sort of "real life" roles, as there's rarely an overarching plot attached.
#98 May 30 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

I think any such area could be a great way to inject some variety into the scene. It's sad that there are so few examples that I'd find such things novel. I also think that a great deal of progress could be made without impinging on that precious straight male demographic. It's just that nobody's ever even makes the faintest of overtures to female side of things.

Just an aside, but I'm not sure that it's all that uncommon. I mean on one hand there's very few games out there where you're strictly playing a female character, but so many games have a *** selection slider in character creation and a gender neutral plot line. The last RPG/MMO I played that didn't (remembering the previous thread on this...) was sometime around 2006? I mean, I don't play a lot of games or anything, but there's a lot of stuff out there that isn't male perspective these days.

Of course I live in a bit of a bubble too. Smiley: rolleyes

Edit: Wow, my response took forever... Smiley: lol

Edited, May 30th 2013 1:33pm by someproteinguy
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#99 May 30 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

I think any such area could be a great way to inject some variety into the scene. It's sad that there are so few examples that I'd find such things novel. I also think that a great deal of progress could be made without impinging on that precious straight male demographic. It's just that nobody's ever even makes the faintest of overtures to female side of things.

Just an aside, but I'm not sure that it's all that uncommon. I mean on one hand there's very few games out there where you're strictly playing a female character, but so many games have a *** selection slider in character creation and a gender neutral plot line. The last RPG/MMO I played that didn't (remembering the previous thread on this...) was sometime around 2006? I mean, I don't play a lot of games or anything, but there's a lot of stuff out there that isn't male perspective these days.

Of course I live in a bit of a bubble too. Smiley: rolleyes


Gender-neutral (as far as plot/dialogue goes) games aren't really what I'm talking about.
#100 May 30 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

So this means female protagonist then?

Because lots of gender neutral games (i.e. pick your gender) will pass those criteria.

Edited, May 30th 2013 1:40pm by someproteinguy
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#101 May 30 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Gender-neutral (as far as plot/dialogue goes) games aren't really what I'm talking about.


How would you make a game that had a female lead that didn't fall into a possible stereotype, if you didn't go for a gender-neutral option?
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