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#102 May 30 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Also, the male protagonists are generally just as stereotyped..
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#103 May 30 2013 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Also, the male protagonists are generally just as stereotyped..

That's crazy talk. I don't know about you but my biceps are twice the size of my head.
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#104 May 30 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

So this means female protagonist then?

Because lots of gender neutral games (i.e. pick your gender) will pass those criteria.


Smiley: dubious

Tirith wrote:
How would you make a game that had a female lead that didn't fall into a possible stereotype, if you didn't go for a gender-neutral option?


I don't know that I agree with all of Sarkeesian's trope types. That's part of why I'm curious to see the videos move on to cover other categories. Even still, I think there's ample room to work around the ones in that list.
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#105 May 30 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

So this means female protagonist then?

Because lots of gender neutral games (i.e. pick your gender) will pass those criteria.


Smiley: dubious

Maybe I have no idea what you were talking about... Smiley: lol

I thought you were looking for games that fit that list of criteria?
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#106 May 30 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Also, the male protagonists are generally just as stereotyped..


In a manner befitting a male power fantasy, yes. Not exactly the same.

spg wrote:
Maybe I have no idea what you were talking about...

I thought you were looking for games that fit that list of criteria?


I am, but I don't think gender-neutral/character select games oft fit the bill. They don't offer a female perspective, they typically still feature hyper-sexualized female characters, other female characters in the games are still typically stereotypes that don't have agency, etc. etc. etc.

Sure, sometimes they fit some of the criteria, but it's still a far cry from a well-realized female lead.

Edited, May 30th 2013 5:04pm by Eske
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#107 May 30 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:

I am, but I don't think gender-neutral/character select games fit the bill. They don't offer a female perspective, they typically still feature hyper-sexualized female characters, other female characters in the games are still typically stereotypes that don't have agency, etc. etc. etc.

Edited, May 30th 2013 5:02pm by Eske

I'm not suprised that this happens if the person writing the story is male. And I have a feeling that for some people, if they hired a female writer to get a female perspective, would still get bent out of shape about it being a token effort (like the girl who made the video)
#108 May 30 2013 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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The thing is no matter how hard you try your going to upset some group somewhere over something that they dont like. Make a game about a time period where whaling was happening, PETAs down your neck, Make a game about rescuing a princess, Femanists are down your neck. Etc etc.

The only thing to do is tread as lightly as you can while not upsetting the status qou and trying (or hoping) you dont upset a demographic.

If you made a game garnered to women, it would probably (maybe) sell well to women, but not to men. But I think most people can say that what gamer women want and like isnt to far detached from what men gamers like. I mean most games have been made towards men/boys tastes and yet a good chunk of female gamers exist to and they have been playing the same games as men/boys have, therefore there tastes are similar to men/boys. I mean your not playing a game you hate or loath just to play.

I understand the need for equality between genders, but reading into some stuff because its controversial or to just stir the pot isnt right. Thats judging a people based on their characteristics instead of basing your judgement on each person. Not every German was a ****.

As someone pointed out before though, most games now days have a template type character, with less customizable things, and a some have one where theres a ton of customizable. Even then there are restrictions, its a fantasy game. If the programers dont want fat people in the world they dont program them in, etc. Yet there is small groups of people that want to play fat people in games but cant. You cant cater to everyone all the time.



Edited, May 30th 2013 4:35pm by BeanX
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#109 May 30 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
I am, but I don't think gender-neutral/character select games oft fit the bill. They don't offer a female perspective, they typically still feature hyper-sexualized female characters, other female characters in the games are still typically stereotypes that don't have agency, etc. etc. etc.

Well that's an interesting point to debate as well. Aside from the lack of games which are really designed around a female protagonist, which is certainly apparent.

So something like SWTOR, has a good variety of (what I would consider at least) reasonable roles for female characters, both as the player character and as NPCs in the game. Much of the armor is more realistic and not offensive, etc.

There's also Twi'lek slave girls.

So like, what about having realistic characters along side more unrealistic ones? Does one bad apple spoil the bunch so to speak. *shrugs*

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:29pm by someproteinguy
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#110 May 30 2013 at 4:24 PM Rating: Default
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Also missing the point that it's just as much a stereotype to assume that a female gamer doesn't want to play a hypersexual female character. I understand some of the arguments, but as several people have stated, she goes a bit past "reasonable" and right into "rabid reactionary". Not a whole lot of male gamers sit around complaining that there are too many stereotypical tough and handsome heroic male characters and it's offensive to them that game designers don't put enough plain and/or weak characters for them to play so that they can avoid said stereotype.

At a point, it becomes looking for something to complain about IMO.
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#111 May 30 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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I believe the usual counterpoint there is that it's a standard male power fantasy to be a big strong handsome dude. Less of a female power fantasy to have tits the size of your head.
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#112 May 30 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Less of a female power fantasy to have tits the size of your head.


It's getting there though.
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#113 May 30 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Im not judging myself versus the guy on the screen, if I was i would have way less self worth than I already do. Just as I dont judge myself vs a comic character, or a book character. Its hyper realism mostly, and the games that do go for a hyper realistic approach have normal female bodies,(Heavy Rain, Uncharted),

Also Ive heard just as many woman swoon over half naked guys and if I would complain I would get told to shut up. I know i wouldnt want 80's Arnold type muscles, just as some women wouldnt want bewbs the size of their heads and revealing clothes (Some would though maybe idk). All video games, it could be argued, are Power Fantasy, you are in control of the digital characters existence, aka you have the power to control his world (to an extent)

Edit: Really hating this laptop keyboard.

Edited, May 30th 2013 5:50pm by BeanX
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#114 May 30 2013 at 6:08 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
... she goes a bit past "reasonable" and right into "rabid reactionary".


Jophiel wrote:
I believe the usual counterpoint there is that it's a standard male power fantasy to be a big strong handsome dude. Less of a female power fantasy to have tits the size of your head.


And if she'd restricted her complaints to female figures with tits the size of their heads, the statement above would not apply. So there!
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#115 May 30 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Eske Esquire wrote:
In a manner befitting a male power fantasy, yes. Not exactly the same.
Totally serious question: Exactly what does a female power fantasy look like? How are they different from a male one?
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#116 May 30 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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The book and magazine aisle at most grocery/mega stores.
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#117 May 30 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Default
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
In a manner befitting a male power fantasy, yes. Not exactly the same.
Totally serious question: Exactly what does a female power fantasy look like? How are they different from a male one?


The irony is that those who yell loudest about this subject seem to have a view of female power that makes the females appear to be as much like males as possible, all the while criticizing anything more "feminine" as not being... um... female enough? Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me either.

I just don't give the whole "strong female roles can't also be attractive/****" position any more weight than the "all female characters must be helpless victims waiting for men to save them". To me, those are both just as wrong. And frankly, while there are some notable failures, for the most part the game design community gets this right by presenting female characters to play that are strong *and* attractive to boot. As Joph said earlier, you're going to appeal to the broadest set of potential players that way.
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#118 May 30 2013 at 7:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Totally serious question: Exactly what does a female power fantasy look like?

I'll leave that question to the skirts.
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#119 May 30 2013 at 8:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
Totally serious question: Exactly what does a female power fantasy look like?

I'll leave that question to the skirts.
Just ask Flea and post her answer, you slackass.Smiley: mad
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#120 May 30 2013 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Since gbaji has entered into this topic for the side I'm arguing against, I'm going to happily take my leave of it.

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:21pm by Eske
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#121 May 30 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Since gbaji has entered into this topic for the side I'm arguing against, I'm going to happily take my leave of it.


At least he didn't pop in on your side!

I never enjoy being on the opposite side of the victim in stuff like this because anything you say just turns into fuel for their victimization.

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:33pm by TirithRR
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#122 May 30 2013 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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This thread is why Annabella doesn't post any more. It's too addictive yelling at y'all.

Quote:
Less of a female power fantasy to have tits the size of your head.

The only upside of ******* as large as your head is being able to lick your own nipples.

Edited, May 31st 2013 12:03am by Aripyanfar
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#123 May 31 2013 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
Totally serious question: Exactly what does a female power fantasy look like?

I'll leave that question to the skirts.

A Black & Decker electric *****?

Just a guess, I don't really fantasize about power.

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#124 May 31 2013 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think there is a one size fits all female power fantasy. It's not necessarily about being stronger or a better fighter. It's about agency. It's about getting the job done instead of being the reward.

So, not that different than male power fantasies, I guess. It's weird, I know, but women are kinda like people.

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#125 May 31 2013 at 6:35 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
I don't think there is a one size fits all female power fantasy. It's not necessarily about being stronger or a better fighter. It's about agency. It's about getting the job done instead of being the reward.

So, not that different than male power fantasies, I guess. It's weird, I know, but women are kinda like people.



So gender-neutral. But that doesn't work.
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#126 May 31 2013 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Just a guess, I don't really fantasize about power.
No reason to fantasize about power when you can just take it.
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#127 May 31 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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The irony is that those who yell loudest about this subject seem to have a view of female power that makes the females appear to be as much like males as possible,

No. The irony is that people who assume that seem to have this view that characteristics like "strong, successful, competent, powerful", etc are somehow tied to gender. Wanting power equity doesn't make women appear to be "as much like males" as possible, assuming it does sort of makes the point about what the problem is. That said, video games aren't really the most fertile ground to pursue the cause in, being targeted at a demographic that's overwhelmingly 15-40 year old men. Escapist fantasy isn't going for realism. It would be like complaining about how unrealistic it is for AverageGirl1234 (Bella Swan, Katnis Everdeen, Elizabeth Bennet, etc) to suddenly be an all consuming object of love, lust, and adoration for every man that meets her. We all know Darcy would have hit that once and rolled back to Pemberly without waking her up the next day.
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#128 May 31 2013 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know, but women are kinda like people.

Haha, they try to eat at the kitchen table and everything!
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#129 May 31 2013 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem starts in society. Women are often still portrayed in all mainstream media this way because sadly, the overwhelming majority of women still behave this way. My own mother is the kind that completely defines herself by her husband. Having a man is and was the most important thing in her life, even above her children. I love my mom, but I don't understand her and can only imagine that it's just a generational gap that is slowly disappearing as equality becomes more prevalent.

But then.. I see **** like teen mom and lose all hope again.

I don't think we will see much of a shift from the "Damsel in distress" stuff until there's an actual real life shift and the majority of women change their attitudes. Right now there's a minority of highly intelligent, educated, and mature females that are breaking into things like the IT industry and becoming high ranking corporate officials... But for every one of us there's 5 teen moms throwing their lives away on 15 miserable seconds with a teenage boy. When that ratio shifts, we'll see better representations of women in general.
#130 May 31 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:
The problem starts in society. Women are often still portrayed in all mainstream media this way because sadly, the overwhelming majority of women still behave this way.

Agreed. The last time my wife was kidnapped by the ninja terrorist mafia, she was fucking useless.
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#131 May 31 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
The problem starts in society. Women are often still portrayed in all mainstream media this way because sadly, the overwhelming majority of women still behave this way. My own mother is the kind that completely defines herself by her husband. Having a man is and was the most important thing in her life, even above her children. I love my mom, but I don't understand her and can only imagine that it's just a generational gap that is slowly disappearing as equality becomes more prevalent.
You think if your Dad were to define his life, it wouldn't include your mother?

You can be intelligent, productive, well read and still cherish your partner.

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#132 May 31 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Torrence wrote:
The problem starts in society. Women are often still portrayed in all mainstream media this way because sadly, the overwhelming majority of women still behave this way.

Agreed. The last time my wife was kidnapped by the ninja terrorist mafia, she was fucking useless.
Did you save her?
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#133 May 31 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
You think if your Dad were to define his life, it wouldn't include your mother?
Someone has to cook.
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#134 May 31 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
I don't think we will see much of a shift from the "Damsel in distress" stuff until there's an actual real life shift and the majority of women change their attitudes.
Just to throw this out there, I have a bright, very independent minded 4 year old. In that anything she could possibly do herself, she'll do. She also fancies herself the decision maker around the house and has no problems barking orders (when she isn't getting in trouble for it of course). She also loves playing the damsel in distress; doing something like getting herself stuck in the couch cushions, or repeatedly "losing" her stuffed animal behind her bed (to the point where she'll get in trouble for this too) and yelling "daddy daddy help! save me!" "You have to rescue Lucy!" (her stuffed elephant), etc.

Anyway I can't say I really understand it all or anything. Maybe it's just a phase or something she'll grow out of. But I suspect that the whole "damsel in distress" thing is somewhat more deeply rooted.
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#135 May 31 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
You think if your Dad were to define his life, it wouldn't include your mother?
I would.

Most everything is an attempt to make the wife and kids' life better. Really I think a lot of guys are that way, it's just not always something they'll admit upfront.


Edited, May 31st 2013 8:58am by someproteinguy
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#136 May 31 2013 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Torrence wrote:
I don't think we will see much of a shift from the "Damsel in distress" stuff until there's an actual real life shift and the majority of women change their attitudes.
Just to throw this out there, I have a bright, very independent minded 4 year old. In that anything she could possibly do herself, she'll do. She also fancies herself the decision maker around the house and has no problems barking orders (when she isn't getting in trouble for it of course). She also loves playing the damsel in distress; doing something like getting herself stuck in the couch cushions, or repeatedly "losing" her stuffed animal behind her bed (to the point where she'll get in trouble for this too) and yelling "daddy daddy help! save me!" "You have to rescue Lucy!" (her stuffed elephant), etc.

Anyway I can't say I really understand it all or anything. Maybe it's just a phase or something she'll grow out of. But I suspect that the whole "damsel in distress" thing is somewhat more deeply rooted.


Too late, you've ruined her. Time to start over with a new one.

I think that's more the Father-Daughter relationship though.
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#137 May 31 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Too late, you've ruined her. Time to start over with a new one.

Smiley: lol

Way ahead of you, I'm sure I'll have the other one ruined in a couple of years. Smiley: wink

TirithRR wrote:
I think that's more the Father-Daughter relationship though.

She'll do it to my wife and her little sister as well apparently. I dunno, just struck me as surprising.

Edited, May 31st 2013 9:05am by someproteinguy
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#138 May 31 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Torrence wrote:
The problem starts in society. Women are often still portrayed in all mainstream media this way because sadly, the overwhelming majority of women still behave this way.
Agreed. The last time my wife was kidnapped by the ninja terrorist mafia, she was fucking useless.
Did you save her?

Sort of. Who the fuck stops at CVS during an escort mission?
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#139 May 31 2013 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Torrence wrote:
The problem starts in society. Women are often still portrayed in all mainstream media this way because sadly, the overwhelming majority of women still behave this way.
Agreed. The last time my wife was kidnapped by the ninja terrorist mafia, she was fucking useless.
Did you save her?

Sort of. Who the fuck stops at CVS during an escort mission?

I bet you forgot the coupons at home too. Smiley: disappointed
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#140 May 31 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Just to throw this out there, I have a bright, very independent minded 4 year old. In that anything she could possibly do herself, she'll do. She also fancies herself the decision maker around the house and has no problems barking orders (when she isn't getting in trouble for it of course). She also loves playing the damsel in distress; doing something like getting herself stuck in the couch cushions, or repeatedly "losing" her stuffed animal behind her bed (to the point where she'll get in trouble for this too) and yelling "daddy daddy help! save me!" "You have to rescue Lucy!" (her stuffed elephant), etc.
Mine hates being the damsel in distress, and is all for barking orders to complete strangers and playing the princess when she knows mommy won't let her do something but daddy might. Then again, it is probably my fault since she's been coming to the armory with me all her life and is accustomed to soldiers doing as she says, since "an order from her is an order from me." I think I might have made a tactical error in that regard, but it still is funny watching someone ten times her size start doing pushups just because she told them to.
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#141 May 31 2013 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Torrence wrote:
The problem starts in society. Women are often still portrayed in all mainstream media this way because sadly, the overwhelming majority of women still behave this way.
Agreed. The last time my wife was kidnapped by the ninja terrorist mafia, she was fucking useless.
Did you save her?

Sort of. Who the fuck stops at CVS during an escort mission?
I'd like to make some snarky reply implying she needed monthly womanly supplies, but I'd really be putting myself out there on the very tip of the weakest limb on the sexism tree.
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#142 May 31 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Sort of. Who the fuck stops at CVS during an escort mission?
I'd like to make some snarky reply implying she needed monthly womanly supplies, but I'd really be putting myself out there on the very tip of the weakest limb on the sexism tree.

I figured you meant health packs and ammo. That's because I'm a feminist and not sexist like you.

Edited, May 31st 2013 11:22am by Jophiel
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#143 May 31 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I think I might have made a tactical error in that regard, but it still is funny watching someone ten times her size start doing pushups just because she told them to.
Wonder if that counts as that mythical female power fantasy thing we've heard so much about?

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#144 May 31 2013 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
If they replaced all damsels in distress with say, treasured carrots, that would quickly solve the problem.
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#145 May 31 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Can the treasured carrots do laundry?
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#146 May 31 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
They don't need to, the former damsel in distress will be doing it.
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#147 May 31 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Treasured carrot sounds good. Those damsels are usually high maintenance anyway. Always getting captured again in the sequels and what not.

Smiley: disappointed
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#148 May 31 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Also, you could add in rival rabbits to make rescuing the carrot more exciting.
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#149 May 31 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Carrot escort missions? Can I just put it in my pocket?
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
If they replaced all damsels in distress with say, treasured carrots, that would quickly solve the problem.

Lol, I had a friend a ventured around Middle Earth with in LotRO. Pretty sure s/he was a tad bit OCD and had to check every corner of every cave, nook and cranny. The explanation for the behavior was the hope of finding the Golden Poo.
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