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That Gamers Women Trope Thingie #2 is UpFollow

#52 May 30 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
If this is problematic because xXxDarkSaiyan765xXx doesn't get to have everyone see who he called a ***, I can live with that.
The blatant use of memes, using Youtube of all places, and the blocking of both ratings and comments points to her wanting to be an online celebrity more than a social activist. If you want to ignore that, then you're the easily manipulated market she's aiming for and there really is nothing to discuss because you'll go out of your way to defend everything she does out of fear of being called a sexist.
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#53 May 30 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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The blatant use of memes people! BLATANT! Using memes with total disregard for propriety, I say!


Ease up on those straws, man. You're crushing 'em.
#54 May 30 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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#55 May 30 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Ease up on those straws, man.
Like I said, anything to ignore what's really going on. Smiley: smile
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#56 May 30 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Ease up on those straws, man.
Like I said, anything to ignore what's really going on. Smiley: smile


Sup Varus. Smiley: tinfoilhat

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:48am by Eske
#57 May 30 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Sup Varus. Smiley: tinfoilhat
Just embarrassing gbaji. You?
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George Carlin wrote:
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#58 May 30 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Sup Varus. Smiley: tinfoilhat
Just embarrassing gbaji. You?


Censoring DarkL0rdx1337x.
#59 May 30 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't want anyone to disagree with you. Privilege!
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#60 May 30 2013 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
SPOILER WARNING LIST: Major plot points or endings in the following games:


*Reads list*

"I haven't played a single one of those games..."

*Feels old*

Edit: On the other hand, maybe this is why I'm having a hard time relating to anything she's saying. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 30th 2013 9:05am by someproteinguy
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#61 May 30 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I can't simply dismiss details and facts so easily just so people won't call me names and fit my narrative on the internet. I should have checked my privilege like you have. Smiley: frown

I had a nice, appropriate gif to post in response to this, but just as I was going to add it to my images my premium ran out.

It was fun while it lasted......



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#62 May 30 2013 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I can't simply dismiss details and facts so easily just so people won't call me names and fit my narrative on the internet. I should have checked my privilege like you have. Smiley: frown

I had a nice, appropriate gif to post in response to this, but just as I was going to add it to my images my premium ran out.

It was fun while it lasted......





PM it to me and I'll post it for you.
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#63 May 30 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Gah, ok, I didn't have a great gif to post. I was fibbing.

I found this one and got road-blocked.

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#64 May 30 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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I'm very interested in the idea of tackling sexism in video games (it's something that annoys me to no end) but I refuse to watch this video cause video is a terrible format for this kind of thing. Write an engaging essay with nice pictures (and no spoilers or spoiler alerts) or something, maybe even embed videos of the relevant part of the games you're talking about... but no, just no on the 25 minute video thing. No one is going to sit through that and come out of it with their mind changed.

Edited, May 30th 2013 10:21am by Olorinus
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#65 May 30 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I rather like how you put it in your other forum response, Joph. Been trying to word why it bugs me, but I think you said it better than I could at this point.
lolgaxe wrote:
Wasn't the first video based around, in a small part at least, the rerelease of Double Dragon? The one where at the end of the game the damsel in distress actually not only saves herself but kicks the Big Bad™ square in the junk? Or was it the "if you stretch far enough you can turn any mention of a female in any medium to be sexist" one?
This guy said pretty much the same thing.
#66 May 30 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I'm very interested in the idea of tackling sexism in video games (it's something that annoys me to no end)
What exactly annoys you and why? How would it be tackled?

I'm probably one of the oldest girl gamers around and I've never really felt 'annoyed' by anything more than skimpy costumes. And then it's really because a bra and thong is totally unbelievable armor, even if it's made of lead.

Granted, I've never played any very violent games where you'd run into rapings, beatings, bondage etc.

One thing that bugs me about some MMO's is some characters just don't come in a non-male version. I can dress a goblin up in pink and give it a feminine name but the game still uses male pronouns for the character. Similarly, many games don't have a female dwarf option.



Edited, May 30th 2013 7:36pm by Elinda
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#67 May 30 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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What annoys me? Sexism. I don't like it. As a ****, I also really dislike the heteronormativity of 99% of video games (example: not being allowed to have any same-*** marriages in Fire Emblem, awakening). I dislike that if I want to marry a girl in most video games I have to roll a male character.

Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved? Why is "what's compelling" always coming from a male perspective? Can we please have some new angles on what compelling is?

I also dislike the over-the-top sexualization of women (and men for that matter). I dislike that "boob sliders" are seen as a major selling point in games. I dislike that I'm not able to create characters that actually look like me (yeah I would actually like to be a chubby, short haired ****, thanks).

It's fine if you don't find it annoying Elinda, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

I don't (often) let sexism put me off trying games/playing them if I enjoy them, but I'd like for the industry to be more self aware and more representative of people. To be fair, I think a lot of developers are really hip to this stuff and progress is being made, but it's important to call out what's problematic so that it doesn't just get internalized as normal.

And some stuff (like the raping prostitutes thing in GTA) is just plain wrong. Period. Rape shouldn't be cast as some hilarious thing you do in a video game. That's not to say it can't happen in video games, but it needs to be done thoughtfully not just as a stereotyped plot device or some toss away thing that you do cause "it's ok!"

Edited, May 30th 2013 10:55am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#68 May 30 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
And some stuff (like the raping prostitutes thing in GTA) is just plain wrong. Period.


The what now? Smiley: dubious

Robbery, yes. Assault with/without weapon, yes. Hit and Run, yes. I don't remember rape being an option in any version of the game.
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#69 May 30 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved? Why is "what's compelling" always coming from a male perspective? Can we please have some new angles on what compelling is?

I don't (often) let sexism put me off trying games/playing them if I enjoy them, but I'd like for the industry to be more self aware and more representative of people. To be fair, I think a lot of developers are really hip to this stuff and progress is being made, but it's important to call out what's problematic so that it doesn't just get internalized as normal.

Those two paragraphs, two opposing viewpoints that game developers get to try to address. There's a lot of money in traditional male fantasy, and female gamers are a new and expanding force in the market. How to balance the two for profit?

In the end who do you think is going to be playing your game? Should a MMO expect a greater female player base than a gore-filled FPS game? To what point do you stop appealing to one subset of your fan base as to not put off another potential portion? *** sells? I'm sick of looking like a hooker?
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#70 May 30 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved?

Because the consumers of such games are mainly males and the developers/publishers want to sell games that appeal to their core demographic, not make brave strides towards social progress.

I'm all for open games that allow you to develop a character of either gender and pursue relationships with either gender. But a "on rails" style plot where you're playing a set character is mainly going to be a male whose attachment is to a female. Both because heterosexual relationships are the majority and because the primary demographic is male players.
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#71 May 30 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
What annoys me? Sexism. I don't like it. As a ****, I also really dislike the heteronormativity of 99% of video games (example: not being allowed to have any same-*** marriages in Fire Emblem, awakening). I dislike that if I want to marry a girl in most video games I have to roll a male character.
That's not really a sexist issue. It's a gender issue. Still, you're right. If the game allows marriage it should allow SS marriage. I'm more concerned about that happening in real life than in games but eh, it's a bias. Dragon Age allows SS relationships.

Quote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved? Why is "what's compelling" always coming from a male perspective? Can we please have some new angles on what compelling is?
Have you played any games since Mario Bros? Most all have female character options. I have no problem with a plot line being to save a loved one or even a lusted after one. Fairly tales either. Face it, a good deal of our species are driven by and drawn to the opposite *** and romanticism.
Quote:
I also dislike the over-the-top sexualization of women (and men for that matter). I dislike that "boob sliders" are seen as a major selling point in games. I dislike that I'm not able to create characters that actually look like me (yeah I would actually like to be a chubby, short haired ****, thanks).
Your dislike for boob sliders is a personal issue. I like it as it allows me to set smaller boobs versus the one-giant-sized hooters of old. I'm not sure I'd categorize it as sexualization. Is a height slider categorized as heightualization? I did play one game once that had a sausage slider. Smiley: grin Cant remember which it was though. I'd like to have older characters. They're missing from the que also.

Quote:
It's fine if you don't find it annoying Elinda, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.
Did I say it didn't? I don't understand it so much. At least not as a sexual thing. That's why I asked. I certainly don't disagree that games, like popular fiction in general, use stereotypes and perhaps over-use stereotypes.

Quote:

And some stuff (like the raping prostitutes thing in GTA) is just plain wrong. Period. Rape shouldn't be cast as some hilarious thing you do in a video game. That's not to say it can't happen in video games, but it needs to be done thoughtfully not just as a stereotyped plot device or some toss away thing that you do cause "it's ok!"
This sounds like a statement about violence versus sexualism.

Maybe I am more immune to sexist stuff. I've pretty much worked and played in the 'men's world' for a long time. At the same time, I can't get on the negative 'damsel in distress' bandwagon. The idea of a couple being so enamored with each other that one of them will fight through 15 levels of monsters, risking their life at every turn along the way, simply to save the other is compelling...and human.






Edited, May 30th 2013 8:26pm by Elinda
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#72 May 30 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved?

Because the consumers of such games are mainly males and the developers/publishers want to sell games that appeal to their core demographic, not make brave strides towards social progress.

I'm all for open games that allow you to develop a character of either gender and pursue relationships with either gender. But a "on rails" style plot where you're playing a set character is mainly going to be a male whose attachment is to a female. Both because heterosexual relationships are the majority and because the primary demographic is male players.


I suspect we could probably agree that the ratio is still out of whack. I don't know how much weight to put on the "~47% of gamers are female" statistic from the ESA, but it's out there, and the number's been fast rising. Something in the range of 80-90% of playable characters are male.

The minority should be better represented, methinks. This isn't something where one can lean on sales figures and publisher credo as rationale - the publishing/development industries are tremendously male dominated, and the colossal budgeting failures of the recent crop of AAA games ought to be taken as a sign that they don't have the best grasp of their audience. The belief that female leads don't sell seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:22pm by Eske
#73 May 30 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:


I suspect we could probably agree that the ratio is still out of whack. I don't know how much weight to put on the "~47% of gamers are female" statistic from the ESA,
I suspect that is electronic games total. So it includes things like Farmville, SIMS, and Bejewelled.


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#74 May 30 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
I suspect we could probably agree that the ratio is still out of whack. I don't know how much weight to put on the "~47% of gamers are female" statistic from the ESA,
I suspect that is electronic games total. So it includes things like Farmville, SIMS, and Bejewelled.


That's my understanding, aye.
#75 May 30 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I can believe that 47% of "gamers" are female. I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.

Quote:
This isn't something where one can lean on sales figures and publisher credo as rationale - the publishing/development industries are tremendously male dominated, and the colossal budgeting failures of the recent crop of AAA games ought to be taken as a sign that they don't have the best grasp of their audience. The belief that female leads don't sell seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, to grab a random example with Hitman: Absolution (since SE said it didn't meet expectations), I heard plenty of complaints about it. It wasn't open world enough, too much stealth vs disguise, checkpoint system, etc. What I never heard was anyone say "This sucks because Agent 47 should be trying to rescue his male lover". Likewise for Sleeping Dogs. Whatever complaints anyone had about it, I never heard "Needs *** romance" or "Main character should be a woman and strike up a romance with Emma Stone's character).

...wait, no, that would have been awesome...

Regardless, I don't think that pointing to missed goals is evidence that the primary AAA gamer demographic is clamoring for same-*** options in their games. I think they're received fairly well when offered but when dealing with "on rails plot" style gaming I don't think it's worth the investment to make four versions of the same game to meet all the pairing possibilities.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:01pm by Jophiel
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#76 May 30 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Judging by the Omni-DD thread... I don't think 47% of PC gamers who actually own those games every played or installed them.
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