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That Gamers Women Trope Thingie #2 is UpFollow

#52 May 30 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
If this is problematic because xXxDarkSaiyan765xXx doesn't get to have everyone see who he called a **** I can live with that.
The blatant use of memes, using Youtube of all places, and the blocking of both ratings and comments points to her wanting to be an online celebrity more than a social activist. If you want to ignore that, then you're the easily manipulated market she's aiming for and there really is nothing to discuss because you'll go out of your way to defend everything she does out of fear of being called a sexist.
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#53 May 30 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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The blatant use of memes people! BLATANT! Using memes with total disregard for propriety, I say!


Ease up on those straws, man. You're crushing 'em.
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#54 May 30 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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#55 May 30 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Ease up on those straws, man.
Like I said, anything to ignore what's really going on. Smiley: smile
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#56 May 30 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Ease up on those straws, man.
Like I said, anything to ignore what's really going on. Smiley: smile


Sup Varus. Smiley: tinfoilhat

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:48am by Eske
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#57 May 30 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Sup Varus. Smiley: tinfoilhat
Just embarrassing gbaji. You?
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#58 May 30 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Sup Varus. Smiley: tinfoilhat
Just embarrassing gbaji. You?


Censoring DarkL0rdx1337x.
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#59 May 30 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't want anyone to disagree with you. Privilege!
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#60 May 30 2013 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
SPOILER WARNING LIST: Major plot points or endings in the following games:


*Reads list*

"I haven't played a single one of those games..."

*Feels old*

Edit: On the other hand, maybe this is why I'm having a hard time relating to anything she's saying. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 30th 2013 9:05am by someproteinguy
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#61 May 30 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I can't simply dismiss details and facts so easily just so people won't call me names and fit my narrative on the internet. I should have checked my privilege like you have. Smiley: frown

I had a nice, appropriate gif to post in response to this, but just as I was going to add it to my images my premium ran out.

It was fun while it lasted......



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#62 May 30 2013 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I can't simply dismiss details and facts so easily just so people won't call me names and fit my narrative on the internet. I should have checked my privilege like you have. Smiley: frown

I had a nice, appropriate gif to post in response to this, but just as I was going to add it to my images my premium ran out.

It was fun while it lasted......





PM it to me and I'll post it for you.
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#63 May 30 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Gah, ok, I didn't have a great gif to post. I was fibbing.

I found this one and got road-blocked.

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#64 May 30 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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I'm very interested in the idea of tackling sexism in video games (it's something that annoys me to no end) but I refuse to watch this video cause video is a terrible format for this kind of thing. Write an engaging essay with nice pictures (and no spoilers or spoiler alerts) or something, maybe even embed videos of the relevant part of the games you're talking about... but no, just no on the 25 minute video thing. No one is going to sit through that and come out of it with their mind changed.

Edited, May 30th 2013 10:21am by Olorinus
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#65 May 30 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I rather like how you put it in your other forum response, Joph. Been trying to word why it bugs me, but I think you said it better than I could at this point.
lolgaxe wrote:
Wasn't the first video based around, in a small part at least, the rerelease of Double Dragon? The one where at the end of the game the damsel in distress actually not only saves herself but kicks the Big Bad™ square in the junk? Or was it the "if you stretch far enough you can turn any mention of a female in any medium to be sexist" one?
This guy said pretty much the same thing.
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#66 May 30 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I'm very interested in the idea of tackling sexism in video games (it's something that annoys me to no end)
What exactly annoys you and why? How would it be tackled?

I'm probably one of the oldest girl gamers around and I've never really felt 'annoyed' by anything more than skimpy costumes. And then it's really because a bra and thong is totally unbelievable armor, even if it's made of lead.

Granted, I've never played any very violent games where you'd run into rapings, beatings, bondage etc.

One thing that bugs me about some MMO's is some characters just don't come in a non-male version. I can dress a goblin up in pink and give it a feminine name but the game still uses male pronouns for the character. Similarly, many games don't have a female dwarf option.



Edited, May 30th 2013 7:36pm by Elinda
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#67 May 30 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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What annoys me? Sexism. I don't like it. As a dyke, I also really dislike the heteronormativity of 99% of video games (example: not being allowed to have any same-sex marriages in Fire Emblem, awakening). I dislike that if I want to marry a girl in most video games I have to roll a male character.

Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved? Why is "what's compelling" always coming from a male perspective? Can we please have some new angles on what compelling is?

I also dislike the over-the-top sexualization of women (and men for that matter). I dislike that "boob sliders" are seen as a major selling point in games. I dislike that I'm not able to create characters that actually look like me (yeah I would actually like to be a chubby, short haired dyke, thanks).

It's fine if you don't find it annoying Elinda, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

I don't (often) let sexism put me off trying games/playing them if I enjoy them, but I'd like for the industry to be more self aware and more representative of people. To be fair, I think a lot of developers are really hip to this stuff and progress is being made, but it's important to call out what's problematic so that it doesn't just get internalized as normal.

And some stuff (like the raping prostitutes thing in GTA) is just plain wrong. Period. Rape shouldn't be cast as some hilarious thing you do in a video game. That's not to say it can't happen in video games, but it needs to be done thoughtfully not just as a stereotyped plot device or some toss away thing that you do cause "it's ok!"

Edited, May 30th 2013 10:55am by Olorinus
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#68 May 30 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
And some stuff (like the raping prostitutes thing in GTA) is just plain wrong. Period.


The what now? Smiley: dubious

Robbery, yes. Assault with/without weapon, yes. Hit and Run, yes. I don't remember rape being an option in any version of the game.
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#69 May 30 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved? Why is "what's compelling" always coming from a male perspective? Can we please have some new angles on what compelling is?

I don't (often) let sexism put me off trying games/playing them if I enjoy them, but I'd like for the industry to be more self aware and more representative of people. To be fair, I think a lot of developers are really hip to this stuff and progress is being made, but it's important to call out what's problematic so that it doesn't just get internalized as normal.

Those two paragraphs, two opposing viewpoints that game developers get to try to address. There's a lot of money in traditional male fantasy, and female gamers are a new and expanding force in the market. How to balance the two for profit?

In the end who do you think is going to be playing your game? Should a MMO expect a greater female player base than a gore-filled FPS game? To what point do you stop appealing to one subset of your fan base as to not put off another potential portion? **** sells? I'm sick of looking like a hooker?
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#70 May 30 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved?

Because the consumers of such games are mainly males and the developers/publishers want to sell games that appeal to their core demographic, not make brave strides towards social progress.

I'm all for open games that allow you to develop a character of either gender and pursue relationships with either gender. But a "on rails" style plot where you're playing a set character is mainly going to be a male whose attachment is to a female. Both because heterosexual relationships are the majority and because the primary demographic is male players.
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#71 May 30 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
What annoys me? Sexism. I don't like it. As a dyke, I also really dislike the heteronormativity of 99% of video games (example: not being allowed to have any same-sex marriages in Fire Emblem, awakening). I dislike that if I want to marry a girl in most video games I have to roll a male character.
That's not really a sexist issue. It's a gender issue. Still, you're right. If the game allows marriage it should allow SS marriage. I'm more concerned about that happening in real life than in games but eh, it's a bias. Dragon Age allows SS relationships.

Quote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved? Why is "what's compelling" always coming from a male perspective? Can we please have some new angles on what compelling is?
Have you played any games since Mario Bros? Most all have female character options. I have no problem with a plot line being to save a loved one or even a lusted after one. Fairly tales either. Face it, a good deal of our species are driven by and drawn to the opposite **** and romanticism.
Quote:
I also dislike the over-the-top sexualization of women (and men for that matter). I dislike that "boob sliders" are seen as a major selling point in games. I dislike that I'm not able to create characters that actually look like me (yeah I would actually like to be a chubby, short haired dyke, thanks).
Your dislike for boob sliders is a personal issue. I like it as it allows me to set smaller boobs versus the one-giant-sized hooters of old. I'm not sure I'd categorize it as sexualization. Is a height slider categorized as heightualization? I did play one game once that had a sausage slider. Smiley: grin Cant remember which it was though. I'd like to have older characters. They're missing from the que also.

Quote:
It's fine if you don't find it annoying Elinda, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.
Did I say it didn't? I don't understand it so much. At least not as a sexual thing. That's why I asked. I certainly don't disagree that games, like popular fiction in general, use stereotypes and perhaps over-use stereotypes.

Quote:

And some stuff (like the raping prostitutes thing in GTA) is just plain wrong. Period. Rape shouldn't be cast as some hilarious thing you do in a video game. That's not to say it can't happen in video games, but it needs to be done thoughtfully not just as a stereotyped plot device or some toss away thing that you do cause "it's ok!"
This sounds like a statement about violence versus sexualism.

Maybe I am more immune to sexist stuff. I've pretty much worked and played in the 'men's world' for a long time. At the same time, I can't get on the negative 'damsel in distress' bandwagon. The idea of a couple being so enamored with each other that one of them will fight through 15 levels of monsters, risking their life at every turn along the way, simply to save the other is compelling...and human.






Edited, May 30th 2013 8:26pm by Elinda
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#72 May 30 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Some people talked about how "well it's compelling to want to save the girl" - sure - but why do I usually have to play as a male character to save a woman? Why is it almost always women needing to be saved?

Because the consumers of such games are mainly males and the developers/publishers want to sell games that appeal to their core demographic, not make brave strides towards social progress.

I'm all for open games that allow you to develop a character of either gender and pursue relationships with either gender. But a "on rails" style plot where you're playing a set character is mainly going to be a male whose attachment is to a female. Both because heterosexual relationships are the majority and because the primary demographic is male players.


I suspect we could probably agree that the ratio is still out of whack. I don't know how much weight to put on the "~47% of gamers are female" statistic from the ESA, but it's out there, and the number's been fast rising. Something in the range of 80-90% of playable characters are male.

The minority should be better represented, methinks. This isn't something where one can lean on sales figures and publisher credo as rationale - the publishing/development industries are tremendously male dominated, and the colossal budgeting failures of the recent crop of AAA games ought to be taken as a sign that they don't have the best grasp of their audience. The belief that female leads don't sell seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:22pm by Eske
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#73 May 30 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:


I suspect we could probably agree that the ratio is still out of whack. I don't know how much weight to put on the "~47% of gamers are female" statistic from the ESA,
I suspect that is electronic games total. So it includes things like Farmville, SIMS, and Bejewelled.


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#74 May 30 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
I suspect we could probably agree that the ratio is still out of whack. I don't know how much weight to put on the "~47% of gamers are female" statistic from the ESA,
I suspect that is electronic games total. So it includes things like Farmville, SIMS, and Bejewelled.


That's my understanding, aye.
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#75 May 30 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I can believe that 47% of "gamers" are female. I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.

Quote:
This isn't something where one can lean on sales figures and publisher credo as rationale - the publishing/development industries are tremendously male dominated, and the colossal budgeting failures of the recent crop of AAA games ought to be taken as a sign that they don't have the best grasp of their audience. The belief that female leads don't sell seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, to grab a random example with Hitman: Absolution (since SE said it didn't meet expectations), I heard plenty of complaints about it. It wasn't open world enough, too much stealth vs disguise, checkpoint system, etc. What I never heard was anyone say "This sucks because Agent 47 should be trying to rescue his male lover". Likewise for Sleeping Dogs. Whatever complaints anyone had about it, I never heard "Needs **** romance" or "Main character should be a woman and strike up a romance with Emma Stone's character).

...wait, no, that would have been awesome...

Regardless, I don't think that pointing to missed goals is evidence that the primary AAA gamer demographic is clamoring for same-sex options in their games. I think they're received fairly well when offered but when dealing with "on rails plot" style gaming I don't think it's worth the investment to make four versions of the same game to meet all the pairing possibilities.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:01pm by Jophiel
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#76 May 30 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Judging by the Omni-DD thread... I don't think 47% of PC gamers who actually own those games every played or installed them.
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#77 May 30 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, I can believe that 47% of "gamers" are female. I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.


Or that 53% of Farmville players are male for that matter. Simply not enough violence and bikini-plate there. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:59am by someproteinguy
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#78 May 30 2013 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.


I doubt they are, though I'm not sure why that matters.

I also think that there's some chicken/egg stuff going on. I expect the overwhelmingly male-centric nature of most of the industry turns off prospective female gamers.

And on a personal note, I'm interested in more variety, myself. I watch the AAA scene converging into the bro shooter singularity, and it bums me out.

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#79 May 30 2013 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.
I doubt they are, though I'm not sure why that matters.

I already added a bit to my previous post explaining why it matters. You just beat me in responding before my edit was done.
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#80 May 30 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, I can believe that 47% of "gamers" are female. I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.


Or that 53% of Farmville players are male for that matter. Simply not enough violence and bikini-plate there. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:59am by someproteinguy
This vid is sort of relevant, but not really. It is though timely and throws out some interesting game numbers. Also, it s a good comparison of different styles of gaming video-blogs.

What, no buttons?!


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#81 May 30 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Judging by the Omni-DD thread... I don't think 47% of PC gamers who actually own those games every played or installed them.

It's entirely possible that Rig 'n' Roll has a well developed **** subplot that I've just never had the chance to explore.
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#82 May 30 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't believe that 47% of Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light or Max Payne 3 players are female.
I doubt they are, though I'm not sure why that matters.

I already added a bit to my previous post explaining why it matters. You just beat me in responding before my edit was done.


Smiley: cool

Jophiel wrote:
Well, to grab a random example with Hitman: Absolution (since SE said it didn't meet expectations), I heard plenty of complaints about it. It wasn't open world enough, too much stealth vs disguise, checkpoint system, etc. What I never heard was anyone say "This sucks because Agent 47 should be trying to rescue his male lover". Likewise for Sleeping Dogs. Whatever complaints anyone had about it, I never heard "Needs **** romance" or "Main character should be a woman and strike up a romance with Emma Stone's character).

...wait, no, that would have been awesome...

Regardless, I don't think that pointing to missed goals is evidence that the primary AAA gamer demographic is clamoring for same-sex options in their games. I think they're received fairly well when offered but when dealing with "on rails plot" style gaming I don't think it's worth the investment to make four versions of the same game to meet all the pairing possibilities.


My point wasn't intended to show that missed sales goals are due to publishers flouting female gamers, but rather "Because many publishers don't seem to have a grasp of their audience or the appeal of their games, I don't think that claims based on their sales projections are relevant to this argument."
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#83 May 30 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah but their "lack of grasp" appears to deal with mechanics that have nothing to do with gender or sexuality. I don't think you can discount "They want to appeal first and foremost to their primary demo" with "Yeah, but they're all dumb anyway".

Their primary demographic is unquestionably male and, statistically, will be majority heterosexual. Playing it safe within that demographic just makes sense. Where they miss the mark in that demographic isn't based on "Needs more women rescuing men" by any available evidence.
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#84 May 30 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah but their "lack of grasp" appears to deal with mechanics that have nothing to do with gender or sexuality. I don't think you can discount "They want to appeal first and foremost to their primary demo" with "Yeah, but they're all dumb anyway".

Their primary demographic is unquestionably male and, statistically, will be majority heterosexual. Playing it safe within that demographic just makes sense. Where they miss the mark in that demographic isn't based on "Needs more women rescuing men" by any available evidence.


Yes and no, it does and it doesn't. Playing it safe within your demographic can make sense all the way until you release a "me-too" CoD clone that doesn't have anything unique or fresh that makes it warrant a look.

You can try to reduce my argument by summarizing it with diminished, hyper-specific examples like "Needs more women rescuing men" all you want, but I'm clearly speaking to much larger, more generalized phenomena. There are myriad ways that games could benefit from the variety of more female-oriented content.
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#85 May 30 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Playing it safe within your demographic can make sense all the way until you release a "me-too" CoD clone that doesn't have anything unique or fresh that makes it warrant a look.

Sure, but that's largely a mechanics argument, not a gender based one.

I'm not trying to reduce your argument, I was originally responding to a specific complaint: Lack of female roles and same-sex relationships. I assumed your replies were in regards to that. If you have some broad view to share with enough detail that people don't have to guess at what you mean, knock yourself out.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:38pm by Jophiel
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#86 May 30 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
This vid is sort of relevant, but not really. It is though timely and throws out some interesting game numbers. Also, it s a good comparison of different styles of gaming video-blogs.

What, no buttons?!

Elephant. Smiley: nod

It was a nice reminder of Nintendo's whole "this game isn't flashy or anything but it was cheap to make and good simple fun, so we sold about a bazillion copies of it, haha" thing they have going on. Also on that note, I've had tons of fun with Rollercoaster Tycoon III. Wasn't there a thread we had talking about the expensive graphics heavy games versus the simple cheap fun games? Something about tablet gaming taking over the world? Seems relevant again.

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#87 May 30 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
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Playing it safe within your demographic can make sense all the way until you release a "me-too" CoD clone that doesn't have anything unique or fresh that makes it warrant a look.

Sure, but that's largely a mechanics argument, not a gender based one.


Surely it's not too big a leap of logic that gender can also be a source for variety. Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.

Jophiel wrote:
I'm not trying to reduce your argument, I was originally responding to a specific complaint: Lack of female roles and same-sex relationships. I assumed your replies were in regards to that. If you have some broad view to share with enough detail that people don't have to guess at what you mean, knock yourself out.


Apologies - I had composed a post earlier citing a variety of areas for improvement that I just now realized I never actually posted. I've been considering my replies in terms of general sexism in the games industry, not any singular example.

But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

I think any such area could be a great way to inject some variety into the scene. It's sad that there are so few examples that I'd find such things novel. I also think that a great deal of progress could be made without impinging on that precious straight male demographic. It's just that nobody's ever even makes the faintest of overtures to female side of things.

Edited, May 30th 2013 4:00pm by Eske
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#88 May 30 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I did play one game once that had a sausage slider. Smiley: grin Cant remember which it was though.
SRTT had a general purpose Sexiness slider. It applied to **** for women and the **** for men. Maybe that's the one you're thinking?
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#89 May 30 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:


Surely it's not too big a leap of logic that gender can also be a source for variety. Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.



Do you think putting female soldiers into a game already full of prepubecent / man-childs who throw out sexist/racist remarks about once per minute is a good idea? I can already see how some places would spin it as adding female soldiers is bad becuase it promotes violence against women. I dont think its that they wont or cant add them its just why cause issues and controversy when your games already selling.
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#90 May 30 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test.


Does it count if they are talking about a zombie, that just happened to be male before the zombification?
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#91 May 30 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:


Surely it's not too big a leap of logic that gender can also be a source for variety. Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.



Do you think putting female soldiers into a game already full of prepubecent / man-childs who throw out sexist/racist remarks about once per minute is a good idea? I can already see how some places would spin it as adding female soldiers is bad becuase it promotes violence against women. I dont think its that they wont or cant add them its just why cause issues and controversy when your games already selling.


I can see the gamertags and PSN names on the bottom of the leaderboards now... millions of deaths, zero kills, innuendos galore.

Edit:
Honestly though, character models in CoD were never really that detailed for me to make a distinction that they are male or not. Usually I treat them as who ever is controlling the character on the other end. I never play multiplayer solo, I always had a party of friends with me. Solo multiplayer is boring...

Edited, May 30th 2013 4:16pm by TirithRR
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#92 May 30 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.

I'm not super familiar with COD/BF aside from "bang bang" but I'm fairly confident that the combat roles played in those games are not yet open for women. Although the Pentagon is planning on having women in front line combat roles, it's still in the "We're going to do this and we're planning and working with the separate military branches for it to happen" stages.

Quote:
Apologies - I had composed a post earlier citing a variety of areas for improvement that I just now realized I never actually posted. I've been considering my replies in terms of general sexism in the games industry, not any singular example.

Feminism is tearing our family apart Smiley: frown

I have nothing against expanded female roles in games. I assume that's a given. I do, however, understand why a game in which the emphasis is mechanics over plot (e.g. Hitman: Absolution) would choose the easiest possible plot path towards getting the ball rolling.
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#93 May 30 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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TF2 doesn't have female characters because Valve hates broads Smiley: frown
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#94 May 30 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Do you think putting female soldiers into a game already full of prepubecent / man-childs who throw out sexist/racist remarks about once per minute is a good idea? I can already see how some places would spin it as adding female soldiers is bad becuase it promotes violence against women. I dont think its that they wont or cant add them its just why cause issues and controversy when your games already selling.


1) Who cares? I play a lot of Call of Duty - it's not like the stuff that those folk say is going to get any worse. They're unceasingly racist, but I'd never make the case that the games shouldn't feature black characters because of it.
2) I already gave the retort-in-a-can to any complaints that it promotes violence against women: "It's already the reality in the US." Before you respond, remember that Call of Duty has already featured a level where you commit genocide on civilians in an airport. They also have one where a child gets blown up.

Tirith wrote:
Does it count if they are talking about a zombie, that just happened to be male before the zombification?


That depends - was it a cisgender zombie?

Edited, May 30th 2013 4:24pm by Eske
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#95 May 30 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
TF2 doesn't have female characters because Valve hates broads Smiley: frown


I don't think the women in question would like that option. (possibly NSFW)
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#96 May 30 2013 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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MEDIC!
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#97 May 30 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Of note: Call of Duty and Battlefield still refuse to portray female soldiers in front-line roles, despite that being the reality here in the US.

I'm not super familiar with COD/BF aside from "bang bang" but I'm fairly confident that the combat roles played in those games are not yet open for women. Although the Pentagon is planning on having women in front line combat roles, it's still in the "We're going to do this and we're planning and working with the separate military branches for it to happen" stages.


Aye, I understand that. But I'm sure you also recognize how limp of an excuse that would be for not just putting 'em in the games already. Also of note: the multiplayer for these games really doesn't have much bearing on any sort of "real life" roles, as there's rarely an overarching plot attached.
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#98 May 30 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

I think any such area could be a great way to inject some variety into the scene. It's sad that there are so few examples that I'd find such things novel. I also think that a great deal of progress could be made without impinging on that precious straight male demographic. It's just that nobody's ever even makes the faintest of overtures to female side of things.

Just an aside, but I'm not sure that it's all that uncommon. I mean on one hand there's very few games out there where you're strictly playing a female character, but so many games have a **** selection slider in character creation and a gender neutral plot line. The last RPG/MMO I played that didn't (remembering the previous thread on this...) was sometime around 2006? I mean, I don't play a lot of games or anything, but there's a lot of stuff out there that isn't male perspective these days.

Of course I live in a bit of a bubble too. Smiley: rolleyes

Edit: Wow, my response took forever... Smiley: lol

Edited, May 30th 2013 1:33pm by someproteinguy
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#99 May 30 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

I think any such area could be a great way to inject some variety into the scene. It's sad that there are so few examples that I'd find such things novel. I also think that a great deal of progress could be made without impinging on that precious straight male demographic. It's just that nobody's ever even makes the faintest of overtures to female side of things.

Just an aside, but I'm not sure that it's all that uncommon. I mean on one hand there's very few games out there where you're strictly playing a female character, but so many games have a **** selection slider in character creation and a gender neutral plot line. The last RPG/MMO I played that didn't (remembering the previous thread on this...) was sometime around 2006? I mean, I don't play a lot of games or anything, but there's a lot of stuff out there that isn't male perspective these days.

Of course I live in a bit of a bubble too. Smiley: rolleyes


Gender-neutral (as far as plot/dialogue goes) games aren't really what I'm talking about.
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#100 May 30 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
But generally speaking: I'd like to see more games pass the Bechdel Test. More games with a female perspective, more games with females that aren't sexpots. More female agency. Less females conforming to age-old stereotypes. Etc. etc.

So this means female protagonist then?

Because lots of gender neutral games (i.e. pick your gender) will pass those criteria.

Edited, May 30th 2013 1:40pm by someproteinguy
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#101 May 30 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Gender-neutral (as far as plot/dialogue goes) games aren't really what I'm talking about.


How would you make a game that had a female lead that didn't fall into a possible stereotype, if you didn't go for a gender-neutral option?
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