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Native American Sovereignty Follow

#27 Apr 17 2013 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
...and really for what purpose?

To make us feel like we're letting the indigenous people of this land resume the lives that the white man interrupted a couple centuries ago?

No, to allow THEM to maintain some control and self-governance over lands that were originally theirs and were usually taken from them via force or some other shady circumstances.

The idea that it's just to let them live in teepees and hunt buffalo is a bit insulting. Rather, it allows them to decide for themselves how to administer their own lands and maintain whatever balance of tribal tradition and modern society they wish to hold. I'll agree that it hasn't always been successful for the tribes (although I haven't exactly researched everyone and only hear of the worst case scenarios). I disagree that that solution is to say "Nope, you guys blew it. Deal's off."

Edited, Apr 17th 2013 9:36am by Jophiel
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#28 Apr 17 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I think the father deserves the same treatment.
I didn't say he shouldn't, as long as he shows intent throughout. I said it's questionable that he waited until the mother relinquished her right before he swept back in. Like his intentions all along were tribe related and had little to do with the well-being of the child. But, you know. Limited details and such. Maybe he did. This whole thing makes my skin crawl, like they're trying to breed Texas Hold 'Em dealers.
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#29 Apr 17 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:


The idea that it's just to let them live in teepees and hunt buffalo is a bit insulting.
It's incredibly insulting. But that is precisely what we've done. by dissuading them from following the rest of the country into the 21st century.

Quote:
Rather, it allows them to decide for themselves how to administer their own lands and maintain whatever balance of tribal tradition and modern society they wish to hold. I'll agree that it hasn't always been successful for the tribes (although I haven't exactly researched everyone and only hear of the worst case scenarios). I disagree that that solution is to say "Nope, you guys blew it. Deal's off."

Edited, Apr 17th 2013 9:36am by Jophiel
I wouldn't call the deal off completely. Let them keep the paltry bit of property we gave them. Let them administer them as they see fit within the letter of the law. I think it's important to recognize that their was an indigenous people here that we treated like crap. Just like I think it's important to recognize that we stole human beings from far away foreign lands and enslaved them. But If we believe our democratic government is the best we can get it, or at least always working towards that goal, then I think we have to believe that holds true for all our countrymen.


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#30 Apr 17 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
It's incredibly insulting. But that is precisely what we've done. by dissuading them from following the rest of the country into the 21st century.

By allowing them to make their own choices?

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

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#31 Apr 17 2013 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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I heard a story of an indigenous tribe in Brazil where the leader realized that they had two choices: Be traditional or die out, or exploit the exploitees and live on. He traveled the world, went to college in the US, speaks three languages, and has turned his own ancestral land into a tourist destination. Now the little tribe of a hundred or so people are all tech savvy and prospering again.
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#32 Apr 17 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda, I read the other day that a guy in Maine was arrested for harvesting 50lbs of elvers without a license. At $2600/lb that's quite a haul. Not sure if it was part of the Passamaquoddy fight with the state.
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#33 Apr 17 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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Marres wrote:
Elinda, I read the other day that a guy in Maine was arrested for harvesting 50lbs of elvers without a license. At $2600/lb that's quite a haul. Not sure if it was part of the Passamaquoddy fight with the state.
No it wasn't. This guy just had no license. The little buggers are very valuable. Also the species is pretty fragile and we harvest the spawn - so strict regulation is pretty important.

The Passamaquoddy thing really only made the news because it ****** off the Governor.

Are you still in Vermont?
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#34 Apr 17 2013 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
It's incredibly insulting. But that is precisely what we've done. by dissuading them from following the rest of the country into the 21st century.

By allowing them to make their own choices?

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.


Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.


I've not thought about Billy Jack in ages. I'm listening now.

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#35 Apr 17 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda, nope, Massachusetts. Haven't moved north just yet. Been looking at properties for about 2 years now and have yet to find the right place. Have started branching out further into NH and considering Maine again.
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#36 Apr 17 2013 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:

You're not keeping them anything. If they all want to pick up and move to the big city and dissolve their tribe and way of life, nothing is keeping them from doing so. If they wish to remain on what little land still belongs to them and continue an existence for good or ill as a tribe, they have the right to do so.



This.

And breaking the existing treaty would be repeating history. We've broken enough treaties with these people. Having their sovereignty allows them to maintain their own form of government and allows them to control their future. Now, some people might argue they haven't done a very good job of this, but they still have that power. They also have the power to change. Someone mentioned the Brazilian tribal leader who got himself educated and went back to help his tribe adapt so they wouldn't become extinct. This is what many young Native Americans are trying to do these days.

As for the child custody case in the OP, I certainly feel sympathy for the adoptive parents and it's a sucky deal. There may have been other circumstances as some have mentioned, or it may have been a case of an Indian and lawyers taking advantage of the laws. Oddly, that happens all the time throughout the country regardless of who they are. As for the fish story, let them take advantage of it. It reminds me too much of the gold rushes on reservations in the 1800s where treaties were broken because the whites wanted to get rich, and ***** the dirt-worshiping heathens. COcksucker!
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#37 Apr 17 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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What is the standard for being considered Native American, anyway? Do you have to qualify in some way? Is there a blood test? Or is it just a matter of getting a tribal elder to vouch for you?
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#38 Apr 17 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
What is the standard for being considered Native American, anyway? Do you have to qualify in some way? Is there a blood test? Or is it just a matter of getting a tribal elder to vouch for you?


A man who is a member was talking to me one day at a business meeting. He looked as white as could be, but he pulled out a card that said he was a member. He was 1/4 or something like that. He also had a bunch of hunting permits issued by the Tribe. He was allowed considerably more than a non-tribe member could get from the DNR. He also said that his tribe wasn't currently accepting applications, but that you had to be at least 1/8th? and that if you were found to have a blood relative outside of your direct line, it automatically bump you up. Say you were 1/4 cause your grandfather was a Native, if you were found to have a member in a branch, it bumped you to 1/2. He said that's how his was set at 1/4, cause it was found. He was also happy because that bumped his children up to 1/8th.

I'm sure it probably varies by the Tribe though...
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#39 Apr 17 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
What is the standard for being considered Native American, anyway?
To prove you are truly a member of their tribe, you must go on a vision quest. A vision quest is a sacred spiritual journey. You must go out in the wilderness without food or water. Or shoes. You must remain there until you can communicate with nature. You must hear the wisdom of the rocks and trees. And then your guiding spirit must appear to you and reveal a great personal truth. And it's gotta be a real vision. They're Indians. They're gonna know if you're lying.
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#40 Apr 17 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Samira wrote:
What is the standard for being considered Native American, anyway?
To prove you are truly a member of their tribe, you must go on a vision quest. A vision quest is a sacred spiritual journey. You must go out in the wilderness without food or water. Or shoes. You must remain there until you can communicate with nature. You must hear the wisdom of the rocks and trees. And then your guiding spirit must appear to you and reveal a great personal truth. And it's gotta be a real vision. They're Indians. They're gonna know if you're lying.
Then you get to call yourself Jeep Grand Cherokee.
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#41 Apr 17 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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It varies between tribes. For some it's 1/8, others 1/16, but for almost all of them it has to be documented evidence. My immigrant great great grandpa didn't even write down in the family bible that he married a Mandan; it was the family skeleton no one talked about until some years ago when suddenly it became "cool" to claim native heritage again. I found out from my sister, who found out from a cousin, who'd heard about it from her father, who had heard the confession from grandma that her own grandmother was "a Mandan woman." (Not that there were many actual Mandan left by that point. Thanks, smallpox.) That'd make me 1/16th, if I had any evidence besides family rumors, which was enough to claim membership in the modern Three Affiliated Tribes just a few years ago. They changed the rules in 2010 to require 1/8th for proper membership.

I'm just as Native as I am Jewish, which means, none really at all. My square face is a dead ringer for my primary ancestry, Volga German. ****, my entire family tree is a history of displaced peoples -_-
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#42 Apr 17 2013 at 7:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I had written a great post in reply to this thread. It was incredible. It would have brought tears to your eyes due to its brilliance. It was the best post in the world. Sadly, our entire data center took a dump and it was lost. This is not that post. It's just a tribute.
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#43 Apr 17 2013 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
This is not that post. It's just a tribute.


It's not a good tribute either, too short compared to your normal work.
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#44 Apr 17 2013 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
This is not that post. It's just a tribute.


Yet, I refuse to believe you. No matter your opinion
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#45 Apr 17 2013 at 7:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
gbaji wrote:
This is not that post. It's just a tribute.


It's not a good tribute either, too short compared to your normal work.


I thought that his posts brevity was it's best attribute by far. Thumbs up.

ETA "thought"

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 12:35am by stupidmonkey
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#46 Apr 17 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
It varies between tribes. For some it's 1/8, others 1/16, but for almost all of them it has to be documented evidence.

Yeah, tribes get to decide for themselves. Most are between 1/4-1/8th. Some allow anyone who can trace a lineage to count no matter how diluted the bloodline is. Cherokee is the big one which allows this which is why everyone and their dog claims Cherokee ancestry.
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#47 Apr 18 2013 at 6:05 AM Rating: Decent
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we'd essentially be breaking a treaty with those people

Perish the thought! If we were to do that, no one would take us seriously as a nation state.

The SCOTUS hears a case today about a little Native American girl that was adopted by a loving

Couldn't get past this, the bias was too much. It doesn't matter to the law how "loving" the adopting family is beyond the basic idea that it would be suitable for a child to live with them. In this particular case, this group of people suffered so much trauma at the hands of Pete's Dragon that we should probably let them take all the white children they want.


You're not keeping them anything. If they all want to pick up and move to the big city and dissolve their tribe and way of life, nothing is keeping them from doing so.


Right, because social pressure and stigma don't exist. You're not keeping the poor disenfranchised. If they want to pick up and move to the suburbs and give up they way of life of Cabrini-Green nothing is stopping them from doing so.
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#48 Apr 18 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pete's Dragon was a great documentary of why hillbillies shouldn't be allowed to adopt.
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#49 Apr 18 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I wrote:
You're not keeping them anything. If they all want to pick up and move to the big city and dissolve their tribe and way of life, nothing is keeping them from doing so.
Right, because social pressure and stigma don't exist. You're not keeping the poor disenfranchised. If they want to pick up and move to the suburbs and give up they way of life of Cabrini-Green nothing is stopping them from doing so.

More accurately I should have said nothing is keeping them there any more than any other impoverished group of people. But the primary reason why those areas are impoverished is because they're real estate no one else wanted because it's shitty land with few resources. Eliminating their tribal or sovereign status won't change that. It'll likely just make it worse because some of the few opportunities the people there have (gambling, tax free cigarettes, salable items culled from wildlife) are only available because of their status. Taking sovereign status from some crappy South Dakota reservation will just make it another crappy South Dakota town only now with less to offer.

But the OP wasn't even about the relative economic state of many reservations anyway so much as it was about them getting special treatment.
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#50 Apr 18 2013 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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More accurately I should have said nothing is keeping them there any more than any other impoverished group of people. But the primary reason why those areas are impoverished is because they're real estate no one else wanted because it's ****** land with few resources. Eliminating their tribal or sovereign status won't change that. It'll likely just make it worse because some of the few opportunities the people there have (gambling, tax free cigarettes, salable items culled from wildlife) are only available because of their status. Taking sovereign status from some crappy South Dakota reservation will just make it another crappy South Dakota town only now with less to offer.


I agree, there should be a big bag of money also handed out to each individual member. Sure, they'll waste it on beads and firewater, but then we'd be done with all the pseudo nation silliness. The current situation generates almost inescapable stereotypes, both positive and negative. I imagine it being assumed that you're a fall down drunk is only marginally more annoying than it being assumed that you're a magical warrior shaman mystic.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#51 Apr 18 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
we'd essentially be breaking a treaty with those people

Perish the thought! If we were to do that, no one would take us seriously as a nation state.

The SCOTUS hears a case today about a little Native American girl that was adopted by a loving

Couldn't get past this, the bias was too much.
It was intentionally biased. So happy that came through (though only you got it)
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