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Can Civilization Survive Capitalism?Follow

#1 Mar 12 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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Absolutely agreed,

The idiocy born of greed is a contagion without a cure.
#2 Mar 12 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Capitalism can't survive capitalism, the system leads unerringly to collapse, pretty much by design. Not new information.
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#3 Mar 12 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Capitalism is the most difficult path between communism and communism? Besides we'll save the planet when it's profitable to do so, don't worry.
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#4 Mar 12 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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So much white background. Reading the article felt like reading the words of some extra-terrestrial viewing the world from outer-space.
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#5 Mar 12 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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Liberals.
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#6 Mar 12 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fascist!
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#7 Mar 12 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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The fact that the public is influenced by science is deeply troubling to those who dominate the economy and state policy.
I like this quote.

I'd like to think however that there is strong pressure pushing back on 'those who dominate the economy and state policy', but that may wishful thinking.

I'm going to leave this here...

Introduction to Sustainability

This is a class that just began this week through Coursera. It's being taught by Jonathon Tomkin, a Geologist at University of Illinois Urbana - Champaign. I was just going to watch the first lecture last night, but ended up going through the whole weeks worth of material (and I took the test).

It's relevant as affluence affects the amount of impact of consumption. In other words socio-economic pressures will play a big role in how many people we can comfortably maintain on our earth (carrying capacity) before we crash the system.
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#8 Mar 12 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Fascist!


Hag!
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#9 Mar 12 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Fascist!


Hag!

Gah!

agh......
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#10 Mar 12 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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#11 Mar 12 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd like to think however that there is strong pressure pushing back on 'those who dominate the economy and state policy',

Hahaha, no. This will sound pessimistic, but social control has become very refined in the last 100 years or so. Where previously first world nations faced real threats from the working classes over inequality: the Trade Union movement, actual uprising, general strikes, etc, that's really no longer the case. The solution was instead of vilifying the members of the working classes who acted out, frequently martyring them either symbolically or literally, was to gradually replace the framework of debate entirely with one where incremental progress was possible in improving the conditions of the working class while never actually threatening the status quo.

This is transparent in the US, where the framework of public debate excludes even the conceptual idea that socialism could be a functioning economic system, among other things. The US never intentionally kills innocents, the US only meddles in other nation states affairs for altruistic reasons, etc. These are all essentially givens. Attempting to bring a discussion outside of the constructed framing is dismissed or ridiculed. The goalposts have been moved so far to the side of advantaging the ultra wealthy, that even the idea of recovering some of that wealth *at death* has become unpopular.

The bad news is that it's not going to change. Most people will never be self aware, most people can't escape well delivered social controls even if they are. The same human drive for self gain that leads the ultra wealthy to attempt to squeeze even more from the working classes causes the working classes to aspire to be the ultra wealthy and avoid harming the illusion so that it's intact when they reach that caste.

Read: (Anna) Freud, Bernays, Reiss, Arendt, G H Mead, etc.

I don't want to say it's hopeless, but...it's hopeless. :)
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#12 Mar 12 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is a pretty good video on the topic: http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2

Nexa

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#13 Mar 12 2013 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Fascist!


Hag!


I am a proud revolting hag.

Smasharoo wrote:

This is transparent in the US, where the framework of public debate excludes even the conceptual idea that socialism could be a functioning economic system, among other things. The US never intentionally kills innocents, the US only meddles in other nation states affairs for altruistic reasons, etc. These are all essentially givens. Attempting to bring a discussion outside of the constructed framing is dismissed or ridiculed. The goalposts have been moved so far to the side of advantaging the ultra wealthy, that even the idea of recovering some of that wealth *at death* has become unpopular.


Unfortunately, on this point, I agree completely. The only real chance that we have as ordinary folks is to somehow "win" democracy, a game that is stacked against us by decades of propaganda and walls of wealth. Even in Canada, which is marginally better off in this regard, the most left of the left parties that stand a chance at even a taste of government are as tame as babes, afraid to actually put forward significant change that would upset the applecart.

While I do think that could change if popular unrest grew to a high enough pitch, the reality is it is unlikely to.

Edited, Mar 12th 2013 11:59am by Olorinus
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#14 Mar 12 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Fascist!


Hag!


someproteinguy wrote:
Witch!




Smiley: oyvey
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"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
— James D. Nicoll
#15gbaji, Posted: Mar 12 2013 at 3:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's pretty easy to make a point when you define the thing you're speaking about in a way designed to support it. Just saying. Chomsky's pretty good at this, but that doesn't make him right. So now "capitalism" is to blame for not sufficiently dealing with global warming? Who does he think he's kidding? The only thing capitalism does well in this context is accurately measure the cost versus gain and reject those that wont work. The fact to bring out of this is that the proposals for dealing with global warming will cost a ton of money and wont actually have any effect on the end result. But what Chomsky isn't going to tell you is that wasteful spending is the means to an end he wants. Global warming is just the latest scary thing that the socialists use to convince people to let them spend that money.
#16 Mar 12 2013 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

Again, an odd way of looking at things, given that the rise of the "ultra rich" class has coincided with vast improvements in quality of life for the working class. Saying that the rich squeeze their wealth from the working class is a grossly inaccurate depiction of what's really going on. But socialism requires that people adopt a zero sum viewpoint of economics in order to be adopted, so that's the lie that has to be repeated, no matter how obvious it should be that it's false.

So how would you describe when person A is able to increase their paycheck by reducing the paycheck of person B through reduced hours or layoffs? Maybe squeezing is the wrong word, but when my boss gets a bonus because he kept the payroll down that screams to me one person getting more by reducing what another gets.
#17 Mar 12 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
This is transparent in the US, where the framework of public debate excludes even the conceptual idea that socialism could be a functioning economic system, among other things.

Because it's worked so well throughout history, right?
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#18 Mar 12 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
This is transparent in the US, where the framework of public debate excludes even the conceptual idea that socialism could be a functioning economic system, among other things.

Because it's worked so well throughout history, right?


You know this story already sweets...there's never been a socialist society throughout history. Stop baiting him, I'm trying to go to bed.

Nexa
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#19 Mar 12 2013 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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At 8pm?

What has married life done to you?
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#20 Mar 12 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Flea would understand...some of us don't get to take naps!

Nexa
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#21 Mar 12 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've been sick Smiley: frown
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#22 Mar 12 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's pretty

Stopped reading about here. I think this is probably a wise idea with all of your posts. Going forward, I'm only reading the first two words, so try to be concise when responding to me.

Thanks, it is pretty!

(it's Smash, but I'm not logging Nexa out because I'm lazy.)
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#23 Mar 12 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Best approach to interpreting gbaji posts yet.
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#24 Mar 12 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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I don't want to say it's hopeless, but...it's hopeless. :)


Capitalsm tends towards crisis.... but it's also the perfect foundation for a stable, unassailable status quo benefiting the very rich.
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#25 Mar 12 2013 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Nexa wrote:
Demea wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
This is transparent in the US, where the framework of public debate excludes even the conceptual idea that socialism could be a functioning economic system, among other things.

Because it's worked so well throughout history, right?


You know this story already sweets...there's never been a socialist society throughout history. Stop baiting him, I'm trying to go to bed.

Nexa

Baiting Smash (and to a lesser degree Almalique and catwho) is really the only reason I post in these silly politics threads.

Smiley: frown
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#26 Mar 12 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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Tell me about it.
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“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”
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