Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Transgender rightsFollow

#202 Mar 11 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
***
3,044 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


As far as I know, most states just match your birth certificate for any laws with gender distinctions. And to the best of my knowledge, the federal government does too. Though, as Joph noted, some do not use that for everything--marriage is the biggest one. Because obviously the gays would reassign their sexes just to get married.

This process is actually one of the biggest political issues for trans peoples, though. Because it doesn't reflect the trans experience. The vast majority of trans peoples don't reassign their genitalia. For many, it's because it's a painful and cost-intensive process, and you lose a LOT of the nerves in the area. Sexual males are more likely to reassign than sexual females, because far more of the nerves are preserved. And few people want to give up sexual pleasure down yonder.

There's also the birth issue. Reassignment surgery renders you infertile, so anyone who wants biological children is unlikely to reassign.

And there are also people who just don't want to. Maybe they don't hold a gender identity that's 100% one or the other, or maybe they're happy to keep the genitals they were born with as long as they're allowed to live as the gender they identify as. Bodily changes to "pass" is often far more important to non-trans peoples than it is to them. Not that this is universal, by any means, I'm talking about statistics not individual feelings on an issue.

Even in states where you don't need to have surgery to reassign your legal gender, it's still generally very expensive to go through the legal process of changing it.

Hence, big political issue.

[EDIT]

You know, if you're too lazy to click Joph's link.

Edited, Mar 10th 2013 12:24pm by idiggory



^^^ This reflex the personal stories I've heard from many transgender friends. I've just read 2 pages of the remarks so far and my blood is boiling, while at the same time I cry over the memory of a dear friend who was killed because they were transgender.

What is between your legs should not determine what bathroom you're allowed to use in public. Through the work of a very good LGBT Lawyer and a dear friend who is lo longer with us, transgender persons in Maryland can get the *** change on their Maryland Drivers License with out having to have reassignment surgery or a new Birth Certificate. My Ex husband was the second person in the State to get a drivers license with the Gender they identified with when she got her name changed. Sadly Tracy who was the first transgender person in the state to get their legal ID to agree with their gender identity was killed by a group of young people who didn't like Her appearance. I knew them as both male and through their transition to living full time as female and still cry over the lost of a very good friend who supported me through a bitter divorce.

Still discrimination against Transgender person is legal in Maryland, though there is a law in the state senate right now, which farther then it has gotten in the years since we had to fight to get the *** and ******* community to work with the Transgender community, when I first got involved.
Neither Tracy or my ex had surgery and in my opinion don't need it to be the gender they feel they always have been, though their birth certificate states they were male at birth. You only have to live with one like I did for 15 years to realize the pain they go through trying to be something they aren't.

For me this isn't just personal issues that benefit only transgender individuals, but a family issue. For many of the Transgender community of my ex's generation have wives and children who are affected also. Personally my daughters watched as the police were called to remove a "woman" from the men's room, back when my ex still was not out of female yet, but wearing a unisex blouse. Once they show their drivers license to the police officer the problem was solved since the name and *** were both male at the time. Still though my ex tries to avoid using public rest rooms if she can help it. We lived in fear of what would happen if anyone at their place of employment found out that she was transgender, fear that was justified by the unfriendly treatment she did get. Though a month after our divorce was final, EEOC was willing to back her up, in a filed complaint, she allowed them to harass her into quitting the job and .guaranteeing that her daughter would send the rest of their childhood in poverty. (Note at this time I had already filed for disability and wouldn't win my case until 2 of them had left home and were on their own.) For no job meant no child support payments, which I had to force through the courts system, to take out of their paycheck.

While part of my anger is at how my ex gave in to the discrimination, seeing that so many people still can't see the injustice transgender face daily gets to me. Then it is an issue my adult children still deal with every time they spend time in public with their father. Part of me still fears the violence that my ex may face every time they go outside their apartment. A fear I know has made them avoid a lot of activities, most of us take for granted.
____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#203 Mar 11 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Idd wrote:
Build a separate "colored" bathroom because the white people don't want them in it. Same difference here. It's one thing if it is the trans people asking for their own restroom. It's another when it's the non-trans people telling them to use it.


With the difference being that "colored" people have the same respective organs. That is not the same comparison.
#204 Mar 11 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Rachel wrote:
Because it demonstrates that in fact, we do not expect people to use bathrooms based on their genitals.

Not at all. If a similar accident were to happen to a woman, she would be using a woman's bathroom. Nothing changed. It' completely based on their genitals

Rachel wrote:
Based on the given premise. They are not a us citizen, therefore if they say they are, they are either lying, or misinformed. Most likely the former.


What defines them as a "US citizen" is the question?
#205 Mar 11 2013 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*****
13,221 posts
Large single occupancy bathrooms are great, I take them whenever available, just like handicapped stalls. I assume that when I do, there is a Smasharoo in the next room over, dumping **** on the floor in a cold rage at the occupied family room.

Jophiel wrote:
Ari wrote:
Going Metric is Too Expensive!

Smiley: confused


I've heard Obama wants to take our penises away and convert them into metersticks.
____________________________
Just as Planned.
#206 Mar 11 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
Everyone's Oiran
*****
15,952 posts
Thank you for sharing your story, Elne Clare.

TimeLord;Doctor: OW! I think a standard classroom 30 cm ruler would be preferable.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:10pm by Aripyanfar
____________________________
<3

http://www.reddit.com/r/Forum4/
#207 Mar 11 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
496 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Rachel wrote:
Because it demonstrates that in fact, we do not expect people to use bathrooms based on their genitals.

Not at all. If a similar accident were to happen to a woman, she would be using a woman's bathroom. Nothing changed. It' completely based on their genitals
So men without a ***** (for whatever reason) are not in fact supposed to use the men's bathroom? Because if it is completely based on genitals, that must be the case.

Quote:
Rachel wrote:
Based on the given premise. They are not a us citizen, therefore if they say they are, they are either lying, or misinformed. Most likely the former.


What defines them as a "US citizen" is the question?
[/quote]Nothing? You stated from the start that they are not. What exactly are you on about?
____________________________
#208 Mar 11 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
Tracer Bullet
*****
12,636 posts
Belkira wrote:
Here's my question: A woman who wants to compete in, say, discus throwing. Wouldn't she want to train her body to the point where she can beat anyone, not just the other women? Is there really a disadvantage? Can women really just biologically never beat men in sports? That seems a little odd to me.

No, they pretty much can't. The closest that female olympians can get in track events is about 90% as fast as men. Which is enough distance to put them dead last in every race, if they had mixed competition. In a sport like basketball, a very good high school boys team can beat a WNBA team, without much trouble. (That's not just conjecture: some college women's teams have been known to practice against non-organized college guys from the playground. The men win easily.) Testosterone is pretty powerful.

____________________________
Na Zdrowie
#209 Mar 12 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Rachel wrote:
So men without a ***** (for whatever reason) are not in fact supposed to use the men's bathroom? Because if it is completely based on genitals, that must be the case.


The male's genitalia consist of more than the *****. The only logical way you'll find a man without any genitalia is if he has half a body, in which case he did at one point in time have one, which means that he uses the men's restroom. The same applies with women.

Rachel wrote:
Nothing? You stated from the start that they are not. What exactly are you on about?

I didn't "make up this scenario". That's how it works. If a Korean takes a vacation to the United States and decides not to go back, can that person call himself a "United States citizen"?
#210 Mar 12 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
496 posts
Almalieque wrote:
I didn't "make up this scenario". That's how it works. If a Korean takes a vacation to the United States and decides not to go back, can that person call himself a "United States citizen"?
Uh, yes you did? And now you've made up another scenario, of a Korean taking a vacation to the US and then staying there.

No, someone who is not a us citizen cannot rightly say they are. Please get to your point.
____________________________
#211 Mar 12 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
******
27,272 posts
Rachel9 wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I didn't "make up this scenario". That's how it works. If a Korean takes a vacation to the United States and decides not to go back, can that person call himself a "United States citizen"?
Uh, yes you did? And now you've made up another scenario, of a Korean taking a vacation to the US and then staying there.

No, someone who is not a us citizen cannot rightly say they are. Please get to your point.
Because somehow, walking into America and walking into the men's room are totally the same thing or something.
Or maybe taking hormones is like walking into America as a Korean.

Either way his analogy is as retarded as they usually are.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#212 Mar 12 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
******
49,663 posts
Timelordwho wrote:
I've heard Obama wants to take our penises away and convert them into metersticks.
thanks_obama.gif
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#213 Mar 12 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
Yes, that's a tragic story. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of life.

No one is saying that it's an easy issue to tackle, but there are other people in the world too you know, not just the transgender. No one should be a victim of violence, but if private bathrooms can solve that problem, why have a heated debate on whether or not a human with male body parts should be able to use the ladies' restroom? Make it a non-issue in a way that doesn't make anyone else uncomfortable and minimizes the risk of violence for everyone involved.

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so. I can't go to Australia as a US citizen and expect not to be deported just because I say, "Hi! I'm Australian now!" There's a process, just as there is a process to change one's ***. The gender might all be in the head, but just saying you are a man or a woman doesn't change your ***. That's what he is saying whether you agree or not - he's separating the soul from the body, as folks often do.

You may not agree that we should use the physical body as the measure because you want to believe that everyone is honest all of the time, but there is a real world out there with real opportunists. Everyone deserves to be safe.
#214 Mar 12 2013 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
******
49,663 posts
Torrence wrote:
The gender might all be in the head, but just saying you are a man or a woman doesn't change your ***.
No no no, a dude saying he's not a dude is "innocent until proven guilty" and "given the benefit of the doubt." Whereas that filthy foreigner has brown skin and is an obvious liar.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#215 Mar 12 2013 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
*****
12,062 posts
Torrence wrote:

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so.


Sure, except that when it does...the debate isn't if, it's when. I obviously can make something so just by saying it. I'm a democrat. I'm a buddhist. I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official". Some things have specific criteria to make them so, some don't. The question is what are the criteria, if any?

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#216 Mar 12 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,594 posts
Nexa wrote:
Torrence wrote:

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so.


Sure, except that when it does...the debate isn't if, it's when. I obviously can make something so just by saying it. I'm a democrat. I'm a buddhist. I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official". Some things have specific criteria to make them so, some don't. The question is what are the criteria, if any?

Nexa

Maybe just as importantly in this case, does saying you're a woman make it so that you're not a man.


____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#217 Mar 12 2013 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
*****
12,062 posts
Elinda wrote:
Nexa wrote:
Torrence wrote:

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so.


Sure, except that when it does...the debate isn't if, it's when. I obviously can make something so just by saying it. I'm a democrat. I'm a buddhist. I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official". Some things have specific criteria to make them so, some don't. The question is what are the criteria, if any?

Nexa

Maybe just as importantly in this case, does saying you're a woman make it so that you're not a man.




Well, then we're getting into a kind of side discussion about the whether gender is fluid or has a range like sexuality/sexual preference/attraction (which I think most folks here can probably wrap their heads around at this point).

Way out there, Elinda, but did you ever read Herland? It's a crazy sci-fiesque novel, but it's all about a utopian future where *** and gender differences have been largely eliminated (from rights, language, norms, etc).

Edit: wait wait, I'm thinking of "Woman on the Edge of Time"...Herland is also crazy, but not the one I'm thinking of. In Woman on the Edge of Time, they use words like "per" instead of him and her and that sort of thing. It's neat and makes you think about how gender centric language is (of course, it's bad enough in english, I don't know what the **** you'd do with the romantics).

Nexa

Edited, Mar 12th 2013 10:37am by Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#218 Mar 12 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,594 posts
Nexa wrote:


Edit: wait wait, I'm thinking of "Woman on the Edge of Time"...Herland is also crazy, but not the one I'm thinking of. In Woman on the Edge of Time, they use words like "per" instead of him and her and that sort of thing. It's neat and makes you think about how gender centric language is (of course, it's bad enough in english, I don't know what the **** you'd do with the romantics).
I have to admit I've not heard of either of these books.

The first is too fantastical. Complex life forms can't sustain themselves on pure asexual reproduction.

Woman On the Edge of Time Sounds interesting....

Kind of a pick your ending?

Quote:
a future, utopian world in which a number of goals of the political and social agenda of the late sixties and early seventies radical movements have been fulfilled. Environmental pollution, homophobia, racism, phallogocentrism, class-subordination, consumerism, imperialism, and totalitarianism no longer exist in the agrarian, communal community of Mattapoisett. The death penalty, however, continues to exist ("We don't think it's right to kill (...). Only convenient."), as does war.


or

Quote:
a dystopian alternate future is a possibility— one in which a wealthy elite live on space platforms and subdue the majority of the population with psychotropic drugs and surgical control of moods, also harvesting these earth-bound humans' organs. Women are valued solely for their appearance and sexuality, and plastic surgery that gives women grotesquely exaggerated sexual features is commonplace.


____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#219 Mar 12 2013 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
*****
12,062 posts
Neither of them are good stories, just a context for presenting a philosophy (like a word problem for math)...the cliffs notes version is fine I'm sure.

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#220 Mar 12 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,084 posts
I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official".

I hope you don't print business cards with "I'm a organizational consultant" unless you're going to work in Appalachia.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#221 Mar 12 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
*****
12,062 posts
Smasharoo wrote:
I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official".

I hope you don't print business cards with "I'm a organizational consultant" unless you're going to work in Appalachia.


Really? Out of everything going on in this thread, and the implications of transgender rights in our society and the fact that this isn't a. being submitted for a grade, or b. for publication or c. for pay, THAT'S what you decided was worthy of setting the baby down to log in and respond about? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen, baking me something?

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#222 Mar 12 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,084 posts

Really? Out of everything going on in this thread, and the implications of transgender rights in our society and the fact that this isn't a. being submitted for a grade, or b. for publication or c. for pay, THAT'S what you decided was worthy of setting the baby down to log in and respond about? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen, baking me something?


Like, what, a filo dough version of Strunk & White?
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#223 Mar 12 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
******
49,663 posts
Compromise. Bake the baby.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#224 Mar 12 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*****
13,221 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
I've heard Obama wants to take our penises away and convert them into metersticks.
thanks_obama.gif

First he came for our jobs, and I said nothing, because I'm retired
Then he came for our guns, and I said nothing because I wasn't a hunter
When he came for our penises, there was noone left to fight back, because he took away our guns.
____________________________
Just as Planned.
#225 Mar 12 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,594 posts
Timelordwho wrote:

When he came for our penises, there was noone left to fight back, because he took away our guns.

If you think your ***** is being threatened now, just wait for the Hilary reign. Smiley: sly


____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#226 Mar 12 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Rachel wrote:
Uh, yes you did? And now you've made up another scenario, of a Korean taking a vacation to the US and then staying there.

No, someone who is not a us citizen cannot rightly say they are. Please get to your point.


No I didn't create anything, unless you believe that I created the whole "immigration reform" and the 11 million illegal immigrants in the US. I'm asking you if you believe any of those 11 million illegal immigrants (or legal immigrants) can call him or herself as a US citizen simply because they say they are? You answered "no, they are illegal." I responded to ask based on what? I didn't create those 11 million immigrants. So, if those 11 million people are illegal, they are for a reason that I didn't create. If those 11 million people say that they are US citizens, then why are you stating that they are still illegal?

Clearly you fail at conceptual thinking. I merely stated a Korean visitor as an example. Conceptually, it doesn't matter if it were Korean, Mexican legal or illegal because the question is the matter of US citizenship.

Aethien wrote:
Because somehow, walking into America and walking into the men's room are totally the same thing or something.
Or maybe taking hormones is like walking into America as a Korean.

Either way his analogy is as retarded as they usually are.


That is quite a retarded analogy, good thing that wasn't my point. At least you're step above Rachel.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 54 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (54)