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#402 Mar 18 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Which is why I argued before regarding both owner protections and patron protections for restroom use. Because whatever Pollyanna dreams we may all hold for a future where no one cares... people care.

Well, someday, when no one cares, I guess we'll see progress. Like when people stopped caring that black kids went to the same school as white kids. I have a dream, that someday, people of all colors will organically decide spontaneously to respect the rights of others. Yes, this dream will take an amazingly long time, but I'll probably be dead of a sucking chest wound long before then.
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#403 Mar 18 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Well, someday, when no one cares, I guess we'll see progress.

Hang on to the dream!
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#404 Mar 18 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence, what exactly do you think is going to happen if a man walks into the ladies room? Is every woman in there going to be instantly raped? If a rapist wants to get at a woman, is she suddenly super-duper safe if she can just cross the threshold of a public restroom? Or is it that men who would ordinarily never consider harming a woman are sddenly rape-crazy at the thought of a woman on the other side of a locked stall door with her pants down pissing in a filthy toilet?

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 1:56pm by Belkira
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#405 Mar 18 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Well, someday, when no one cares, I guess we'll see progress.

Hang on to the dream!

I'm proud to say I've been largely proactive in this area.
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#406 Mar 18 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:


It's just not worth it.

What's not worth it?

Allowing a husband access to the 'ladies' room to help his wife out of her wheelchair and onto the toilet?

Or maybe it's not worth allowing the 5-year old boy to enter the ladies room rather than stand outside alone in whatever public space because his mother has to relieve herself?

I can see where you'd want to dismiss those needs due to opportunistic predators paranoia - that sounds so scary.
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#407 Mar 18 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Torrence wrote:


It's just not worth it.

What's not worth it?

Allowing a husband access to the 'ladies' room to help his wife out of her wheelchair and onto the toilet?

Or maybe it's not worth allowing the 5-year old boy to enter the ladies room rather than stand outside alone in whatever public space because his mother has to relieve herself?

I can see where you'd want to dismiss those needs due to opportunistic predators paranoia - that sounds so scary.


Specific situations? Not the topic at hand. No one is going to bat an eye at a child with his mother or a husband asking for the room to be cleared so he can help his disabled wife. I'm not saying that men will become rape-crazy, either, or that somehow women are magically safe once they enter a restroom. We do, however, have a reasonable expectation that if a guy was seen entering - he'd be noticed and questioned - not just ignored because well, penis is the same as vagina, after all! There's no WAY he could possibly have a hidden agenda. The question wasn't whether a 5 year old boy or a man helping his wife should have access. The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.

Dismissing the concern is dangerous and does a disservice to the rest of the population who also deserves to have their rights respected; in this case, their right to safety. If we set a precedent that any man can enter any ladies' restroom at any time and for any reason, we take the choice away from the rest of the people just to adjust the comfort level of a few folks who probably should be getting that pesky penis hacked off anyway.

As I've said before, I'm in favor of private restrooms in place of BOTH sex-separated ones. Then it truly becomes a non issue. Until that happens though, I'd prefer to continue to have the not entirely unreasonable expectation that when I enter a restroom, there's no men in it.

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 4:46pm by Torrence
#408 Mar 18 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.
Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.
Of course, that doesn't really give you anything to make a clear and simple rule about. Not that having a penis or not is going to be easy to rule on anyway short of checking out everyone's crotch before they enter the toilets and I think some people may just object to that.
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#409 Mar 18 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira wrote:
Alma, why does it matter to you so much if a person born biologically male feels like a woman? Do you dispute that this happens? Do you not believe that it's possible? What's the problem?

I don't get why it's a big deal.


I've said several times that I don't care what sex/gender you feel like being. The point is that if society allows for such discrimination, then society needs to adhere to them. If society feels that the discrimination is wrong and should be changed, then it should be changed. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.

Rachel wrote:
All of it? "How many woman he has slept with" doesn't make sense as a definition for the word "man" (or any other word). If you said "a person who has slept with at least 10 woman", then it would at least make sense...


You don't have the authority to belittle my definition. That's my definition. If it doesn't make sense to you, then that's a personal problem.

P.S. It was assumed that there would be an exact number and that exact number was irrelevant because the point was on the requirement of having to sleep with women...


Rachel wrote:
They ARE held to a standard, there is just no single authority that can decide that standard.


I never said that there were only one. So I ask again, who are those authorities and what are the chosen standards? If you don't know, then you don't have much to argue against.
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#410 Mar 18 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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Aethien wrote:

Torrence wrote:
The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.

Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.


And why not?

If a man simply says that he is a woman and feels inside that he is a woman, but dresses and acts like a man, why should he be treated differently? You must see the hypocrisy in all of this, especially when you're arguing about pigeon holing people into categories.
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#411 Mar 18 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
I've said several times that I don't care what sex/gender you feel like being. The point is that if society allows for such discrimination, then society needs to adhere to them. If society feels that the discrimination is wrong and should be changed, then it should be changed. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.


You didn't answer the question. Do you dispute that someone can be born biologically female but should be a male and vice versa? Or do you think this is just a ploy to attract a sh*tstorm of negative attention?
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#412 Mar 18 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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P.S. It was assumed that there would be an exact number and that exact number was irrelevant because the point was on the requirement of having to sleep with women...
P.S. Don't ever write a dictionary.

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So I ask again, who are those authorities and what are the chosen standards?
Every single English speaking person.
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#413 Mar 18 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Aethien wrote:

Torrence wrote:
The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.

Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.


And why not?

If a man simply says that he is a woman and feels inside that he is a woman, but dresses and acts like a man, why should he be treated differently? You must see the hypocrisy in all of this, especially when you're arguing about pigeon holing people into categories.
She's probably not going to be using the women's bathroom in that case.
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#414 Mar 18 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:


You didn't answer the question. Do you dispute that someone can be born biologically female but should be a male and vice versa? Or do you think this is just a ploy to attract a sh*tstorm of negative attention?


I apologize for that. It wasn't intentional. I have absolutely no clue. Either or (and anything in between) is irrelevant to my point.

Rachel wrote:
P.S. Don't ever write a dictionary.


You wouldn't realize it anyway since you obviously don't know how to use one. Besides, dictionaries don't have anything to do with an irrelevant assumption based on a number.

Rachel wrote:
Every single English speaking person.


If that were true, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I didn't create those instances.

Rachel wrote:
She's probably not going to be using the women's bathroom in that case.

He shouldn't be in a woman's bathroom he's not a woman; however, if he feels like a woman, he would most definitely be in a woman's bathroom. Why on Earth shouldn't he be? What makes him any different from any other guy who feels like a woman?



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#415 Mar 18 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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You wouldn't realize it anyway since you obviously don't know how to use one. Besides, dictionaries don't have anything to do with an irrelevant assumption based on a number.
I never said it was relevant to the discussion. I was just letting you know, that since you can't even make up a fake definition, you'd likely be really bad at writing a dictionary.

Quote:
He shouldn't be in a woman's bathroom he's not a woman; however, if he feels like a woman, he would most definitely be in a woman's bathroom. Why on Earth shouldn't he be? What makes him any different from any other guy who feels like a woman?
Maybe you haven't noticed, which doesn't surprise me really, but most trans people, at least for some portion of their lives, go to considerable lengths to hide the fact that they are trans. Often for 20, 30, or even 50+ years sometimes. Probably because it's likely to make everyone hate them, and possibly get them killed.
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#416 Mar 18 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel wrote:
I never said it was relevant to the discussion. I was just letting you know, that since you can't even make up a fake definition, you'd likely be really bad at writing a dictionary.


Reread my response. I was staying relevant to the discussion. Don't blame me for you assuming the stupid.

Rachel wrote:
Maybe you haven't noticed, which doesn't surprise me really, but most trans people, at least for some portion of their lives, go to considerable lengths to hide the fact that they are trans. Often for 20, 30, or even 50+ years sometimes. Probably because it's likely to make everyone hate them, and possibly get them killed.


That's completely irrelevant to my point/question. Why wouldn't he use the woman's bathroom? Why should he be treated any differently. The given fact that there are openly gay/lesbian/trans/etc. people, completely contradicts your claim.
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#417 Mar 18 2013 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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That's completely irrelevant to my point/question.
Uh, no? You asked why she might not use the women's bathroom. I gave you a reason.
Quote:

The given fact that there are openly gay/lesbian/trans/etc. people, completely contradicts your claim.
Oh, i didn't realize the existence of openly gay/trans people disproves the possibility of closeted trans people. My bad!
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#418 Mar 18 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I always figured the main societal reason for seperation men and womens bathrooms was for protection. For the men...

Seriously, the random stranger ladies would kill us if we left the seat up in there. Spouses, familiy and or significant others at least have to pretend to tolerate us when that happens. And there aren't alot of things in a bathroom that you can be killed with that lead to a clean death...
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#419 Mar 18 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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After reading this, I'm not sure who I hate more: Alma or Rachel.
#420 Mar 18 2013 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel wrote:
Uh, no? You asked why she might not use the women's bathroom. I gave you a reason.




Almalieque The Great wrote:
Aethien wrote:
Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.


And why not?

If a man simply says that he is a woman and feels inside that he is a woman, but dresses and acts like a man, why should he be treated differently? You must see the hypocrisy in all of this, especially when you're arguing about pigeon holing people into categories.


You got lost in translation. Aethien stated that a trans wouldn't just say that he's a woman, but would dress and act like a woman. I was arguing against that notion. So, unless you agree with that notion, then we agree.

Rachel wrote:
Oh, i didn't realize the existence of openly gay/trans people disproves the possibility of closeted trans people. My bad!


The existence of openly gay/trans people disproves the notion that ALL men would hide their sexual preference for social acceptance. Since the conversation is about men, who feel as if they are women, but act and behave like men, your injects are irrelevant.
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#421 Mar 18 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Please show me where i said "all". Or where we were talking about sexual preference.

Quote:
Aethien stated that a trans wouldn't just say that he's a woman, but would dress and act like a woman
Yes, that's usually how it goes.

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 10:21pm by Rachel9
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#422 Mar 19 2013 at 2:53 AM Rating: Good
I'm fine with dudes who became/are becoming a woman are using the ladies room & woman who are becoming/have become men use the men's room.

Anyone who isn't is probably a closet homo.

Edited, Mar 19th 2013 4:53am by Omegavegeta
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#423 Mar 19 2013 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Nadenu wrote:
After reading this, I'm not sure who I hate more: Alma or Rachel.
Why choose?
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#424 Mar 19 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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Screenshot

Discuss.
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#425 Mar 19 2013 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
After reading this, I'm not sure who I hate more: Alma or Rachel.
Screenshot

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#426 Mar 19 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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Discuss.

Not at urinal, appears to be girl sheep in girl's room.

[APPROVED]
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#427 Mar 19 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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It's a handicapped stall, but sheep doesn't appear to have any physical handicaps.

Off With it's Haunches!
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#428 Mar 19 2013 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
It's a handicapped stall, but sheep doesn't appear to have any physical handicaps.

Off With it's Haunches!
Not being able to move it's limbs doesn't count as a handicap?

Edited, Mar 19th 2013 4:34pm by Aethien
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#429 Mar 19 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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The Parents POV .

And yes I did sign the petition, as I don't think a child should have to grow up living as something they are not.


Change.org
Our 6-year-old daughter isn't allowed to use the girls' bathroom at her school because she's transgender. Tell the school to treat our daughter equally!
Sign Our Petition

Ellen -

Our daughter, Coy, is a beautiful, happy, friendly, 6-year-old girl. But her school is treating her differently from the other kids -- just because she happens to be transgender.

We have five kids, and Coy is one of three triplets. When she was little, we used to dress her like her brother, but that made her really unhappy. She would be excited to go to the playground, but when we laid out boys' clothes for her, she would get sad and ask if she could stay home.

When Coy was 4, she told us something was wrong with her body. She asked us when she could go the doctor to become a girl. We took her to a psychologist, who said that Coy is transgender and we should support her and let her be who she is. As soon as we let Coy grow her hair out and wear girls' clothes, it was like someone turned on a light. She was happy all the time.

Coy's school, Eagleside Elementary, was initially supportive, too -- until this past December, when they abruptly told us Coy couldn't use the girls' bathroom anymore. Now we need your support.

We started a petition on Change.org to ask the school to stop discriminating against our daughter. Will you click here to sign it?

When Coy started at Eagleside last September, her teachers and classmates accepted her for who she was. They referred to her using female pronouns, and she used the girls' bathroom for months with no problems. Then, all of a sudden, the principal told us Coy would have to use the boys' room, the staff bathroom for adults, or the bathroom for sick children in the nurse's office. Our daughter is not a boy, she's not an adult, and she's not sick.

Our state, Colorado, is one of 16 states where it's illegal for public schools to discriminate against kids like Coy. Eagleside had an opportunity to teach kids to celebrate each other's differences, but instead they set our daughter up for harassment and bullying. Coy doesn't understand why she can't be treated the same as all the other little girls.

We are grateful to have the support of LGBT advocates, thanks to the work of Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund (TLDEF) and GLAAD. We also know that lots of other schools have done the right thing for LGBT students (such as allowing Gay-Straight Alliances) after being petitioned to do so on Change.org. We hope that if enough people sign our petition, Eagleside Elementary will comply with the law and treat our daughter with equality and respect.

Click here to sign our petition demanding that Eagleside Elementary allow our daughter, Coy, to use the girls' bathroom.

Thank you,

Kathryn and Jeremy Mathis
Fountain, Colorado
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#430 Mar 19 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel wrote:
Please show me where i said "all". Or where we were talking about sexual preference.

Yes, that's usually how it goes.


Please reread the conversation that you interrupted. If you're not against the concept of there existing a man, who feels like a woman, but acts and dresses like a man, then you have not addressed my point.
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#431 Mar 19 2013 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Please reread the conversation that you interrupted. If you're not against the concept of there existing a man, who feels like a woman, but acts and dresses like a man, then you have not addressed my point.
As i stated, there are many such people. Again, most trans women pretend to be men, at least for some part of their lives. However, it's highly unlikely that you would find such people using the women's bathroom. Ya know, because they are hiding who they are, and going into a women's bathroom would very quickly out them.
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#432 Mar 19 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel wrote:
As i stated, there are many such people. Again, most trans women pretend to be men, at least for some part of their lives. However, it's highly unlikely that you would find such people using the women's bathroom. Ya know, because they are hiding who they are, and going into a women's bathroom would very quickly out them.


How are they hiding who they are? You just contradicted your own claim. You are insinuating that if the person doesn't dress or behave like the opposite sex, then he or she is "hiding who they are".

However, my point is in reference of men, who OPENLY feel like women, but act and dress like men and vice versa. In other words, you ask a man his sex, he says "woman", because that's what he relates to; however, every other masculine idiosyncrasy remains constant. That has been the point of this entire conversation.
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#433 Mar 19 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure that really happens.
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#434 Mar 19 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel9 wrote:
I'm not sure that really happens.


That is totally irrelevant to my point. Allowing people to violate rules based on sex undermines the rules themselves. Either change the laws or support them. You can't have laws based on sex and then allow people to determine their sex "all willy-nilly". What's the point of having the law int the first place?
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#435 Mar 19 2013 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Everything is irrelevant to your point. I think i could probably quote your post and say "i agree", and you'd give the same response.

Edited, Mar 19th 2013 7:09pm by Rachel9
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#436 Mar 19 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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Not at all.I explicitly explained how your opinion on the number of men that feel like a woman, but act like a man, has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to undermine laws. You said yourself that you didn't say "all", which means that you believe that there exist some.

So, if you feel otherwise, why don't you explain to me why your aforementioned belief has any relevance in upholding laws.

Edited, Mar 20th 2013 3:14am by Almalieque
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#437 Mar 19 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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I know this was directed at Alma, but:

Belkira wrote:
You didn't answer the question. Do you dispute that someone can be born biologically female but should be a male and vice versa?


What does "should be" mean in this context? This suggests that there was some conscious intent (divine perhaps), but then a mixup at the baby making plant occurred, and the baby came out female instead. IMO, the relevant point here is what biological sex the person *is*. Talking about what they should be, or could be, or whatever, injects a nearly infinite set of variables into the equation that aren't helpful at all. Who's to say that someone "should be"? Again, this implies intent.

Ultimately, what matters here is that we currently do divide bathrooms up by biological sex. We can debate why that is, but that is the distinction. Thus, when you see a sign that says "men" or "women", it's not referring to anything other than the biological sexual genitalia of the people using the respective restrooms. Adding in other criteria doesn't solve any problem, it only creates new ones.
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#438 Mar 19 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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What does "should be" mean in this context? This suggests that there was some conscious intent (divine perhaps), but then a mixup at the baby making plant occurred, and the baby came out female instead. IMO, the relevant point here is what biological sex the person *is*. Talking about what they should be, or could be, or whatever, injects a nearly infinite set of variables into the equation that aren't helpful at all. Who's to say that someone "should be"? Again, this implies intent.


Good question, no one has ever considered that. What? For how long? Oh really? Well, it appears I was mistaken, what I meant was "Apparently you missed the last 100 years where people considered this and developed a clear criteria for.

It doesn't imply intent any more than a Banana implies that god must have decided to make an awesome treat that fits just into the human hand. People probably aren't more than biology, but gender probably is more than sex organs.
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#439 Mar 19 2013 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
People probably aren't more than biology, but gender probably is more than sex organs.


People aren't denying that. simply stating that our sex discrimination laws, rules, practices, etc. are purely biological. As long as those laws are biological, society can't uphold them by allowing people to determine their sex by anything other than the biological criteria.
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#440 Mar 19 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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When Coy was 4, she told us something was wrong with her body. She asked us when she could go the doctor to become a girl. We took her to a psychologist, who said that Coy is transgender and we should support her and let her be who she is. As soon as we let Coy grow her hair out and wear girls' clothes, it was like someone turned on a light. She was happy all the time.


Honestly, and I know I'll get slammed for saying this, but that was the wrong answer from the psychologist. What should have been said was "This is a common occurrence among young children, and it could indicate transgender tendencies, but it's way too young to be sure, so try to gently remind him that he is a boy and isn't going to change into a girl, and let's see if this is just a phase that will pass. Let him interact with other kids and see social gender roles within that setting as well. If he's still insisting that he's a girl in say 4 or 5 years then we'll look at other options". The point being that there's no way a psychiatrist could make a diagnosis like that at such a young age, and being wrong about this can do vastly more harm to the child in the long run by encouraging him to be a her than the other way around.

By following the psychiatrists suggestion, they basically reinforced a gender identity in their son which may very well have disappeared in short order otherwise. Kids go through phases like this all the time. If parents decide the kid is transgender and then start dressing him as a girl and referring to him as a girl, it may make him happy in the short term, but that potentially transitory phase will become normal and "stick" with the child and may possibly make him miserable for the rest of his life. I think that was a terrible decision by the parents, and if the psychiatrist actually told them that (which I suspect may be exaggeration on their part), he or she should possibly have their license revoked and banned from the profession.

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When Coy started at Eagleside last September, her teachers and classmates accepted her for who she was. They referred to her using female pronouns, and she used the girls' bathroom for months with no problems.


The $10,000 question is whether the other kids knew Coy was a boy in the first place. Would not be the first time someone left out some key facts in a story to garner support.

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Then, all of a sudden, the principal told us Coy would have to use the boys' room, the staff bathroom for adults, or the bathroom for sick children in the nurse's office. Our daughter is not a boy, she's not an adult, and she's not sick.


There's the problem. Their son is a boy. The school doesn't decide what legally makes someone a boy or a girl. They do, however, have to comply with the rules regarding bathrooms for boys and girls.

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Our state, Colorado, is one of 16 states where it's illegal for public schools to discriminate against kids like Coy.


Again. The school isn't discriminating against Coy. It's not discrimination to apply the same rules to everyone.

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Eagleside had an opportunity to teach kids to celebrate each other's differences, but instead they set our daughter up for harassment and bullying. Coy doesn't understand why she can't be treated the same as all the other little girls.


Whatever harassment and bullying this child will undergo will almost certainly not be caused or prevented based on a schools decision regarding which bathrooms to use. Unless, as I suspect, the parents were trying to keep their sons biological sex a secret from the other kids in school and trying to pass him off as a girl, and expecting the school to go along with the ruse. Then it makes sense. Um.... But I think that's a really poor way to go about doing things and absolutely calls into question their claim to want to teach kids to celebrate each other's differences. Again, I'm speculating here, but reading between the lines, it seems like this is a more likely explanation for what happened.

Also, if Coy doesn't understand why he can't be treated the same as the other little girls, perhaps that's the first clue that he can't possibly know whether he's really transgender or not. It suggest to me that they demand more understanding in other children then they've imparted in their own. A simple "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" at some point would at least give their child some starting point to understand that he's not really the same as the "other little girls".


Dunno, but it seems like there's some information missing here. I'd like to hope that parents would not so quickly and easily decide their 3-4 year old is transgender and then embrace it like that. But I can't see how there could be any other explanation. That's just way too young to make that kind of determination. At that age, kids have not had enough opportunities to engage with other kids and adopt much of any kind of social identities at all, much less something as radical as that. I honestly believe that they created this problem by their response to the whole thing.


Edited, Mar 19th 2013 6:34pm by gbaji
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#441 Mar 19 2013 at 7:31 PM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
It doesn't imply intent any more than a Banana implies that god must have decided to make an awesome treat that fits just into the human hand.


It does if someone says something as nonsensical as "It's physically a banana, but it should have been a pear".

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People probably aren't more than biology, but gender probably is more than sex organs.


OK. Not sure what that has to do with a statement about what someone "should be". If she'd said someone was born a male but felt like a female, I'd have had no issue with it. My beef was with the phase "should be" in reference to being male or female. As I said, it implies that there was some kind of intent. I suppose it also implies that there's some proper configuration, but again that becomes purely subjective. Who gets to decide what gender someone "should be"?

Isn't it more about what gender someone decides (or believes) they are. I mean, buying the whole "Woman trapped in a man's body" (or vice vesa) bit, I just think using "should be" suggests some kind of mistake of biology, which I think is a cop out. You are what you are (yeah, deep. I know). I think it weakens the person to fall back on a phrase like "should be". At least have the strength of conviction that you are or are not something.
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#442 Mar 19 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Should be. As in thinks and feels like a female. As in, when their brain is scanned, it looks like the opposite sex.

As in: Transgender.
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#443 Mar 19 2013 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
Should be. As in thinks and feels like a female. As in, when their brain is scanned, it looks like the opposite sex.


We have different interpretations of the phrase "should be" then.

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As in: Transgender.


Then say "is transgender". Or "Is biological male, but feels female". Or anything else that actually describes what's going on.
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#444 Mar 19 2013 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Should be. As in thinks and feels like a female. As in, when their brain is scanned, it looks like the opposite sex.


We have different interpretations of the phrase "should be" then.

Quote:
As in: Transgender.


Then say "is transgender". Or "Is biological male, but feels female". Or anything else that actually describes what's going on.


I apologize, oh wise one. I will be sure to run all of my posts by you before I submit them in the future so as not to anger the Zam god...
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#445 Mar 19 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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OK. Not sure what that has to do with a statement about what someone "should be". If she'd said someone was born a male but felt like a female, I'd have had no issue with it. My beef was with the phase "should be" in reference to being male or female. As I said, it implies that there was some kind of intent. I suppose it also implies that there's some proper configuration, but again that becomes purely subjective. Who gets to decide what gender someone "should be"?

The person, moron. Where's the confusion. You get to decide what gender you should be. I get to decide what gender I should be. Which word about "gender is probably more than sex organs" confused you so? Was it "probably"?
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#446 Mar 20 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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#447 Mar 20 2013 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
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No, gbaji is right. Should is the wrong word. We should probably stick to using "is". The gender someone is. Should implies they aren't actually.

Edited, Mar 20th 2013 10:37am by Rachel9
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#448 Mar 20 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
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#449 Mar 20 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, at least they have separate beds. Wouldn't want it to get weird.
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#450 Mar 20 2013 at 1:31 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel9 wrote:
No, gbaji is right. Should is the wrong word. We should probably stick to using "is". The gender someone is. Should implies they aren't actually.

Edited, Mar 20th 2013 10:37am by Rachel9


Based off of your previous posts and your lack of response to my previous post, you're not agreeing to what you think you're agreeing to.

Gbaji is referencing "is" in the biological sense, not in the "what do I feel like being today?". There is no choice in that definition.
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#451 Mar 20 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry, i will spell this out for you: No, i don't actually agree with gbaji's main point. I do agree with him that should is not the correct word, but not for the same reason he does.

By the way, i said gender, not sex. I understand if you don't really know what that means. Most people don't, it seems.

Edited, Mar 20th 2013 6:31pm by Rachel9
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