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#202 Mar 11 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


As far as I know, most states just match your birth certificate for any laws with gender distinctions. And to the best of my knowledge, the federal government does too. Though, as Joph noted, some do not use that for everything--marriage is the biggest one. Because obviously the gays would reassign their sexes just to get married.

This process is actually one of the biggest political issues for trans peoples, though. Because it doesn't reflect the trans experience. The vast majority of trans peoples don't reassign their genitalia. For many, it's because it's a painful and cost-intensive process, and you lose a LOT of the nerves in the area. Sexual males are more likely to reassign than sexual females, because far more of the nerves are preserved. And few people want to give up sexual pleasure down yonder.

There's also the birth issue. Reassignment surgery renders you infertile, so anyone who wants biological children is unlikely to reassign.

And there are also people who just don't want to. Maybe they don't hold a gender identity that's 100% one or the other, or maybe they're happy to keep the genitals they were born with as long as they're allowed to live as the gender they identify as. Bodily changes to "pass" is often far more important to non-trans peoples than it is to them. Not that this is universal, by any means, I'm talking about statistics not individual feelings on an issue.

Even in states where you don't need to have surgery to reassign your legal gender, it's still generally very expensive to go through the legal process of changing it.

Hence, big political issue.

[EDIT]

You know, if you're too lazy to click Joph's link.

Edited, Mar 10th 2013 12:24pm by idiggory



^^^ This reflex the personal stories I've heard from many transgender friends. I've just read 2 pages of the remarks so far and my blood is boiling, while at the same time I cry over the memory of a dear friend who was killed because they were transgender.

What is between your legs should not determine what bathroom you're allowed to use in public. Through the work of a very good LGBT Lawyer and a dear friend who is lo longer with us, transgender persons in Maryland can get the **** change on their Maryland Drivers License with out having to have reassignment surgery or a new Birth Certificate. My Ex husband was the second person in the State to get a drivers license with the Gender they identified with when she got her name changed. Sadly Tracy who was the first transgender person in the state to get their legal ID to agree with their gender identity was killed by a group of young people who didn't like Her appearance. I knew them as both male and through their transition to living full time as female and still cry over the lost of a very good friend who supported me through a bitter divorce.

Still discrimination against Transgender person is legal in Maryland, though there is a law in the state senate right now, which farther then it has gotten in the years since we had to fight to get the **** and **** community to work with the Transgender community, when I first got involved.
Neither Tracy or my ex had surgery and in my opinion don't need it to be the gender they feel they always have been, though their birth certificate states they were male at birth. You only have to live with one like I did for 15 years to realize the pain they go through trying to be something they aren't.

For me this isn't just personal issues that benefit only transgender individuals, but a family issue. For many of the Transgender community of my ex's generation have wives and children who are affected also. Personally my daughters watched as the police were called to remove a "woman" from the men's room, back when my ex still was not out of female yet, but wearing a unisex blouse. Once they show their drivers license to the police officer the problem was solved since the name and **** were both male at the time. Still though my ex tries to avoid using public rest rooms if she can help it. We lived in fear of what would happen if anyone at their place of employment found out that she was transgender, fear that was justified by the unfriendly treatment she did get. Though a month after our divorce was final, EEOC was willing to back her up, in a filed complaint, she allowed them to harass her into quitting the job and .guaranteeing that her daughter would send the rest of their childhood in poverty. (Note at this time I had already filed for disability and wouldn't win my case until 2 of them had left home and were on their own.) For no job meant no child support payments, which I had to force through the courts system, to take out of their paycheck.

While part of my anger is at how my ex gave in to the discrimination, seeing that so many people still can't see the injustice transgender face daily gets to me. Then it is an issue my adult children still deal with every time they spend time in public with their father. Part of me still fears the violence that my ex may face every time they go outside their apartment. A fear I know has made them avoid a lot of activities, most of us take for granted.
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#203 Mar 11 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Idd wrote:
Build a separate "colored" bathroom because the white people don't want them in it. Same difference here. It's one thing if it is the trans people asking for their own restroom. It's another when it's the non-trans people telling them to use it.


With the difference being that "colored" people have the same respective organs. That is not the same comparison.
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#204 Mar 11 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Rachel wrote:
Because it demonstrates that in fact, we do not expect people to use bathrooms based on their genitals.

Not at all. If a similar accident were to happen to a woman, she would be using a woman's bathroom. Nothing changed. It' completely based on their genitals

Rachel wrote:
Based on the given premise. They are not a us citizen, therefore if they say they are, they are either lying, or misinformed. Most likely the former.


What defines them as a "US citizen" is the question?
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#205 Mar 11 2013 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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Large single occupancy bathrooms are great, I take them whenever available, just like handicapped stalls. I assume that when I do, there is a Smasharoo in the next room over, dumping **** on the floor in a cold rage at the occupied family room.

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Going Metric is Too Expensive!

Smiley: confused


I've heard Obama wants to take our penises away and convert them into metersticks.
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#206 Mar 11 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you for sharing your story, Elne Clare.

TimeLord;Doctor: OW! I think a standard classroom 30 cm ruler would be preferable.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:10pm by Aripyanfar
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#207 Mar 11 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Rachel wrote:
Because it demonstrates that in fact, we do not expect people to use bathrooms based on their genitals.

Not at all. If a similar accident were to happen to a woman, she would be using a woman's bathroom. Nothing changed. It' completely based on their genitals
So men without a **** (for whatever reason) are not in fact supposed to use the men's bathroom? Because if it is completely based on genitals, that must be the case.

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Rachel wrote:
Based on the given premise. They are not a us citizen, therefore if they say they are, they are either lying, or misinformed. Most likely the former.


What defines them as a "US citizen" is the question?
[/quote]Nothing? You stated from the start that they are not. What exactly are you on about?
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#208 Mar 11 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
Here's my question: A woman who wants to compete in, say, discus throwing. Wouldn't she want to train her body to the point where she can beat anyone, not just the other women? Is there really a disadvantage? Can women really just biologically never beat men in sports? That seems a little odd to me.

No, they pretty much can't. The closest that female olympians can get in track events is about 90% as fast as men. Which is enough distance to put them dead last in every race, if they had mixed competition. In a sport like basketball, a very good high school boys team can beat a WNBA team, without much trouble. (That's not just conjecture: some college women's teams have been known to practice against non-organized college guys from the playground. The men win easily.) Testosterone is pretty powerful.

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#209 Mar 12 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel wrote:
So men without a **** (for whatever reason) are not in fact supposed to use the men's bathroom? Because if it is completely based on genitals, that must be the case.


The male's genitalia consist of more than the penis. The only logical way you'll find a man without any genitalia is if he has half a body, in which case he did at one point in time have one, which means that he uses the men's restroom. The same applies with women.

Rachel wrote:
Nothing? You stated from the start that they are not. What exactly are you on about?

I didn't "make up this scenario". That's how it works. If a Korean takes a vacation to the United States and decides not to go back, can that person call himself a "United States citizen"?
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#210 Mar 12 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
I didn't "make up this scenario". That's how it works. If a Korean takes a vacation to the United States and decides not to go back, can that person call himself a "United States citizen"?
Uh, yes you did? And now you've made up another scenario, of a Korean taking a vacation to the US and then staying there.

No, someone who is not a us citizen cannot rightly say they are. Please get to your point.
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#211 Mar 12 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I didn't "make up this scenario". That's how it works. If a Korean takes a vacation to the United States and decides not to go back, can that person call himself a "United States citizen"?
Uh, yes you did? And now you've made up another scenario, of a Korean taking a vacation to the US and then staying there.

No, someone who is not a us citizen cannot rightly say they are. Please get to your point.
Because somehow, walking into America and walking into the men's room are totally the same thing or something.
Or maybe taking hormones is like walking into America as a Korean.

Either way his analogy is as retarded as they usually are.
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#212 Mar 12 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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I've heard Obama wants to take our penises away and convert them into metersticks.
thanks_obama.gif
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#213 Mar 12 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, that's a tragic story. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of life.

No one is saying that it's an easy issue to tackle, but there are other people in the world too you know, not just the transgender. No one should be a victim of violence, but if private bathrooms can solve that problem, why have a heated debate on whether or not a human with male body parts should be able to use the ladies' restroom? Make it a non-issue in a way that doesn't make anyone else uncomfortable and minimizes the risk of violence for everyone involved.

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so. I can't go to Australia as a US citizen and expect not to be deported just because I say, "Hi! I'm Australian now!" There's a process, just as there is a process to change one's sex. The gender might all be in the head, but just saying you are a man or a woman doesn't change your sex. That's what he is saying whether you agree or not - he's separating the soul from the body, as folks often do.

You may not agree that we should use the physical body as the measure because you want to believe that everyone is honest all of the time, but there is a real world out there with real opportunists. Everyone deserves to be safe.
#214 Mar 12 2013 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
The gender might all be in the head, but just saying you are a man or a woman doesn't change your sex.
No no no, a dude saying he's not a dude is "innocent until proven guilty" and "given the benefit of the doubt." Whereas that filthy foreigner has brown skin and is an obvious liar.
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#215 Mar 12 2013 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so.


Sure, except that when it does...the debate isn't if, it's when. I obviously can make something so just by saying it. I'm a democrat. I'm a buddhist. I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official". Some things have specific criteria to make them so, some don't. The question is what are the criteria, if any?

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#216 Mar 12 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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Nexa wrote:
Torrence wrote:

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so.


Sure, except that when it does...the debate isn't if, it's when. I obviously can make something so just by saying it. I'm a democrat. I'm a buddhist. I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official". Some things have specific criteria to make them so, some don't. The question is what are the criteria, if any?

Nexa

Maybe just as importantly in this case, does saying you're a woman make it so that you're not a man.


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#217 Mar 12 2013 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Nexa wrote:
Torrence wrote:

Rachel9 - what he's saying (and I'm not saying I fully agree) is that just saying you are something doesn't make it so.


Sure, except that when it does...the debate isn't if, it's when. I obviously can make something so just by saying it. I'm a democrat. I'm a buddhist. I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official". Some things have specific criteria to make them so, some don't. The question is what are the criteria, if any?

Nexa

Maybe just as importantly in this case, does saying you're a woman make it so that you're not a man.




Well, then we're getting into a kind of side discussion about the whether gender is fluid or has a range like sexuality/sexual preference/attraction (which I think most folks here can probably wrap their heads around at this point).

Way out there, Elinda, but did you ever read Herland? It's a crazy sci-fiesque novel, but it's all about a utopian future where **** and gender differences have been largely eliminated (from rights, language, norms, etc).

Edit: wait wait, I'm thinking of "Woman on the Edge of Time"...Herland is also crazy, but not the one I'm thinking of. In Woman on the Edge of Time, they use words like "per" instead of him and her and that sort of thing. It's neat and makes you think about how gender centric language is (of course, it's bad enough in english, I don't know what the **** you'd do with the romantics).

Nexa

Edited, Mar 12th 2013 10:37am by Nexa
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#218 Mar 12 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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Nexa wrote:


Edit: wait wait, I'm thinking of "Woman on the Edge of Time"...Herland is also crazy, but not the one I'm thinking of. In Woman on the Edge of Time, they use words like "per" instead of him and her and that sort of thing. It's neat and makes you think about how gender centric language is (of course, it's bad enough in english, I don't know what the **** you'd do with the romantics).
I have to admit I've not heard of either of these books.

The first is too fantastical. Complex life forms can't sustain themselves on pure asexual reproduction.

Woman On the Edge of Time Sounds interesting....

Kind of a pick your ending?

Quote:
a future, utopian world in which a number of goals of the political and social agenda of the late sixties and early seventies radical movements have been fulfilled. Environmental pollution, homophobia, racism, phallogocentrism, class-subordination, consumerism, imperialism, and totalitarianism no longer exist in the agrarian, communal community of Mattapoisett. The death penalty, however, continues to exist ("We don't think it's right to kill (...). Only convenient."), as does war.


or

Quote:
a dystopian alternate future is a possibility— one in which a wealthy elite live on space platforms and subdue the majority of the population with psychotropic drugs and surgical control of moods, also harvesting these earth-bound humans' organs. Women are valued solely for their appearance and sexuality, and plastic surgery that gives women grotesquely exaggerated sexual features is commonplace.


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#219 Mar 12 2013 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Neither of them are good stories, just a context for presenting a philosophy (like a word problem for math)...the cliffs notes version is fine I'm sure.

Nexa
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#220 Mar 12 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official".

I hope you don't print business cards with "I'm a organizational consultant" unless you're going to work in Appalachia.
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#221 Mar 12 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I'm a organizational consultant. I'll print a business card if that makes it "official".

I hope you don't print business cards with "I'm a organizational consultant" unless you're going to work in Appalachia.


Really? Out of everything going on in this thread, and the implications of transgender rights in our society and the fact that this isn't a. being submitted for a grade, or b. for publication or c. for pay, THAT'S what you decided was worthy of setting the baby down to log in and respond about? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen, baking me something?

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#222 Mar 12 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Really? Out of everything going on in this thread, and the implications of transgender rights in our society and the fact that this isn't a. being submitted for a grade, or b. for publication or c. for pay, THAT'S what you decided was worthy of setting the baby down to log in and respond about? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen, baking me something?


Like, what, a filo dough version of Strunk & White?
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a whore. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#223 Mar 12 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Compromise. Bake the baby.
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#224 Mar 12 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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I've heard Obama wants to take our penises away and convert them into metersticks.
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First he came for our jobs, and I said nothing, because I'm retired
Then he came for our guns, and I said nothing because I wasn't a hunter
When he came for our penises, there was noone left to fight back, because he took away our guns.
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#225 Mar 12 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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When he came for our penises, there was noone left to fight back, because he took away our guns.

If you think your **** is being threatened now, just wait for the Hilary reign. Smiley: sly


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#226 Mar 12 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel wrote:
Uh, yes you did? And now you've made up another scenario, of a Korean taking a vacation to the US and then staying there.

No, someone who is not a us citizen cannot rightly say they are. Please get to your point.


No I didn't create anything, unless you believe that I created the whole "immigration reform" and the 11 million illegal immigrants in the US. I'm asking you if you believe any of those 11 million illegal immigrants (or legal immigrants) can call him or herself as a US citizen simply because they say they are? You answered "no, they are illegal." I responded to ask based on what? I didn't create those 11 million immigrants. So, if those 11 million people are illegal, they are for a reason that I didn't create. If those 11 million people say that they are US citizens, then why are you stating that they are still illegal?

Clearly you fail at conceptual thinking. I merely stated a Korean visitor as an example. Conceptually, it doesn't matter if it were Korean, Mexican legal or illegal because the question is the matter of US citizenship.

Aethien wrote:
Because somehow, walking into America and walking into the men's room are totally the same thing or something.
Or maybe taking hormones is like walking into America as a Korean.

Either way his analogy is as retarded as they usually are.


That is quite a retarded analogy, good thing that wasn't my point. At least you're step above Rachel.
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#227 Mar 12 2013 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think the issue is so much about discrimination as it is about practicality. The reality is that we live in a society where people don't like sharing restrooms with folks of the opposite **** (yes, sex, not gender. just to be clear). As long as that is the case, broad adoption of unisex facilities isn't going to work. Which leaves us with the much more expensive per person individual bathroom model or just accepting that the very small percentage of people for whom this is an issue will have to deal with it. Ultimately, it's about making one of two groups uncomfortable. One group represents a much larger percentage of the population. Again, it's about practicality.

The issue with the 6 year old kid goes far beyond the level being portrayed right now. The question is how far the rest of society has to adjust to make room for one persons self-image? It's all well and good to say that we're infringing his/her right to be a unique snowflake or something, but the problems don't stop at the grade school level. What happens when it's the locker room, or the showers, or sports? Expecting the whole rest of the world to make way for your own personal preferences is a bit silly. We have social norms for a reason, and fair or not, it's a **** of a lot easier to find ways to adjust to them, rather than make everyone adjust the other direction. This kid is going to encounter problems with his desire to be female for his entire life. Better he learn that now and figure out ways to deal with it, than run headfirst into block after block after block.

I may feel that wearing a black tie outfit to a black tie event imposes on my own personal sense of style, but guess what? I'll wear the **** monkey suit anyway. Why? Because it's a lot easier to just conform to the expected norm than to do my own thing. I kinda see this the same way. Get used to having to comply with social expectations because the world is full of them, and there's no end to the kinds of non-conforming actions one might demand they get to do instead. No one's saying you can't wear a dress if you want, but perhaps it would be better to teach the kid now that he will face problems doing so than fill his head with the false belief that the world will bend to his own desires and let him do whatever he wants.


Is that unfair? Absolutely. But in the long run, this kid will be vastly better off having realistic expectation of the world around him.
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#228 Mar 12 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't

Me either!
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#229 Mar 13 2013 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
No I didn't create anything
Not sure if serious.

You did not ask if some specific (actual) Korean who came here on vacation and stayed is a us citizen. You made up a hypothetical Korean who, in the scenario you created, came to the US on vacation, and then stayed here.

Quote:
I'm asking you if you believe any of those 11 million illegal immigrants (or legal immigrants) can call him or herself as a US citizen simply because they say they are? You answered "no, they are illegal." I responded to ask based on what? I didn't create those 11 million immigrants.
No, but you have already stated that they are illegal immigrants. Your question refers only to illegal immigrants. If they aren't illegal immigrants, then you are not asking about them, therefore every one of those 11 million people must be illegal immigrants, and therefore, not a US citizen.

Quote:
If those 11 million people say that they are US citizens, then why are you stating that they are still illegal?
Because they are either lying, or simply mistaken.

Quote:
Clearly you fail at conceptual thinking. I merely stated a Korean visitor as an example. Conceptually, it doesn't matter if it were Korean, Mexican legal or illegal because the question is the matter of US citizenship.
Obviously?

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:13am by Rachel9
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#230 Mar 13 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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But in the long run, this kid will be vastly better off having realistic expectation of the world around him.
Unless she just kills herself because she thinks death is easier than complying with such terrible expectations, and pretending to be someone she is not, as so many trans people do.

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:38am by Rachel9
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#231 Mar 13 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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The reality is that we live in a society where people don't like sharing restrooms
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#232 Mar 13 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
But in the long run, this kid will be vastly better off having realistic expectation of the world around him.
Unless she just kills herself because she thinks death is easier than complying with such terrible expectations, and pretending to be someone she is not, as so many trans people do.



What is the terrible expectation? That she use the nurse's private restroom because she's different? She still gets to be a "girl", she still gets to wear a dress, she just has to face the fact that she is different than the other girls in her class because she just had a bit of bad luck and was born with the wrong parts. No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade. If these parents want to indulge the child's interest in exploring her gender options, awesome. At the same time they should be responsible parents and also teach that sometimes she's going to have challenges to overcome, like being asked not to use the girls' bathroom and instead use the private nurses' one because she has a ****

I have to wonder what the parents expected when they decided to send her to public school.

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 1:09pm by Torrence
#233 Mar 13 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade.

Sure, worked for race, right?
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#234 Mar 13 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade.

Sure, worked for race, right?


Seriously, that sounds like the hemming and hawing language my mom uses to explain why **** people shouldn't be allowed to kiss in public.
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#235 Mar 13 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade.

Sure, worked for race, right?


Seriously, that sounds like the hemming and hawing language my mom uses to explain why **** people shouldn't be allowed to kiss in public.

For my money you just tell the kids straight up what's going on if they ask. They usually give you a puzzled and annoyed look, then go back to playing on the iPad once Dad is done spewing the gibberish. If they understand what you said enough to be curious and ask questions then they were old enough to know. If not, they didn't get it anyways so no harm done.

So often it seems parents are the ones with more problems than the kids anyway.
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#236 Mar 13 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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For my money you just tell the kids straight up what's going on if they ask. They usually give you a puzzled and annoyed look, then go back to playing on the iPad once Dad is done spewing the gibberish. If they understand what you said enough to be curious and ask questions then they were old enough to know. If not, they didn't get it anyways so no harm done.

So often it seems parents are the ones with more problems than the kids anyway.


Don't be silly, you'll "give them ideas". If you talk to your 9 year old about **** at noon, he'll be blowing sailors down by the docks by 5pm.
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#237 Mar 13 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Patriotism at work.
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#238 Mar 13 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:


Sure, worked for race, right?


I'm not sure it amounts to the same thing. Color is a superficial difference between two penises\two vaginas at best and so yes I agree segregation based on skin color was moronic. The differences between men and women go deeper than just skin color. Just because it's the popular position that everyone agrees racism is bad doesn't mean it's a valid argument for letting males use the female restroom.
#239 Mar 13 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be
And that is who i was responding to.

And I disagree with making her use the nurse's bathroom, but i don't really have strong feelings either way on it. It's not ideal, but it's not a terrible option either.

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 2:44pm by Rachel9
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#240 Mar 13 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel wrote:
Not sure if serious.

You did not ask if some specific (actual) Korean who came here on vacation and stayed is a us citizen. You made up a hypothetical Korean who, in the scenario you created, came to the US on vacation, and then stayed here.

...

No, but you have already stated that they are illegal immigrants. Your question refers only to illegal immigrants. If they aren't illegal immigrants, then you are not asking about them, therefore every one of those 11 million people must be illegal immigrants, and therefore, not a US citizen.


You fail at conceptual thinking. I didn't make anything up, unless you believe we have no immigration.

Rachel wrote:
Because they are either lying, or simply mistaken.


The question is based on what? You have 11 million people here that are LABELED illegal. If those 11 million people decided to LABEL themselves as legal, what determines which label is correct? How are they lying or simply mistaken?
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#241 Mar 13 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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I tire of this, if you have a point, make it, otherwise read my previous posts, i've already responded.
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#242 Mar 13 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
I tire of this, if you have a point, make it, otherwise read my previous posts, i've already responded.


Hah, without even reading Alma's posts, I know exactly what's happening in this thread.
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#243 Mar 13 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be
And that is who i was responding to.


I'm great at identifying how the real world works though. Is she really "denying her gender" though? I mean, it's not like girls can't wear pants and whatnot. And frankly, I don't care what clothes she wears anyway. That's not the issue. The issue is a biological boy going into the restroom with the biological girls. What she thinks her gender is, or what she identifies as is really irrelevant in this context because everyone else identifies her as a boy.

Fair or not, there are two choices:

1. Make her uncomfortable having to use the boys restroom like all the other kids with male genitalia. No one's forcing her to pee at a communal urinal if she doesn't want to btw.

2. Make every other girl in the school uncomfortable having someone they identify as a "boy" using their restroom.

Her discomfort is no less in her own head as that of the other girls. I just find it really strange that we assume she should not have to bend her view of gender/sex roles in society one bit, but instead every other person should bend theirs to accommodate her. That's not just strange, but also completely unworkable. Telling everyone else to "get over it" is no less unfair to them then telling the trangender person to "get over it". Yet one is considered some horrific violation of someone's rights, while the other is viewed (by some) with some kind of smug satisfaction at putting one over on society or something.

Sorry, but that really makes no sense at all if you stop and think about it. She has no more right to insist that the other girls must allow her (a biological boy) to share their restroom than they have to insist she should not. But there's more of them. Unfair? Maybe. But that's how societies work. Learning this and getting over it is better done earlier rather than later.
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#244 Mar 13 2013 at 8:32 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
The question is based on what? You have 11 million people here that are LABELED illegal. If those 11 million people decided to LABEL themselves as legal, what determines which label is correct? How are they lying or simply mistaken?


Classic Alma right there!
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#245 Mar 13 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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What you don't seem to be getting, gbaji, is that this isn't just about one individual, but an entire minority. And you're basically saying to them, "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist."
#246 Mar 13 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm great at identifying how the real world works though.
Despite all the evidence to the contrary.
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#247 Mar 14 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
And you're basically saying to them, "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist. Vote Republican."

Why I has not votes? Smiley: frown
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#248 Mar 14 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
What you don't seem to be getting, gbaji, is that this isn't just about one individual, but an entire minority.


I get that. But then we're also not talking about just this one school, or one class, but everyone who isn't transgender. Ultimately, we're looking at two groups with incompatible needs. One group's needs are no more irrational than the other, so doesn't it make more sense to inconvenience the smallest group possible?

Quote:
And you're basically saying to them, "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist."


The alternative is to tell everyone else "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist." Can't you see that it's the same thing in either direction? Non transgendered folks are uncomfortable with someone of a different **** using the same restroom because they make that determination based on sex, while transgendered folks are uncomfortable using the restroom with people of the same **** because they make that determination based on gender identity instead.

Who wins? Is it any less fair to the non-transgendered folks to be forced to share a restroom with someone they feel uncomfortable with, than the other way around? Being in a minority group doesn't automatically make what you want the right choice.
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#249 Mar 14 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I get that. But then we're also not talking about just this one school, or one class, but everyone who isn't very wealthy. Ultimately, we're looking at two groups with incompatible needs. One group's needs are no more irrational than the other, so doesn't it make more sense to inconvenience the smallest group possible?

Awesome argument for raising the marginal tax rate on income above $300k to 95%.

Good work, comrade.
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#250 Mar 14 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's like you've never been trickled down on... Smiley: oyvey
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#251 Mar 14 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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What is the terrible expectation? That she use the nurse's private restroom because she's different? She still gets to be a "girl", she still gets to wear a dress, she just has to face the fact that she is different than the other girls in her class because she just had a bit of bad luck and was born with the wrong parts.

It's the same terrible expectation of a black girl having to use a black restroom. What's the fucking disconnect? GID is real. It's a settled medical question. The age of onset is less clear, but what possible benefit is there to *actively preventing* a child from using a restroom that makes them marginally less stigmatized? What's the downside? Remember schools not allowing children with HIV to attend school? This will be that at some point in the hopefully not too far off future. Let me say again, this isn't a debatable thing. There's been a debate, for decades. If the kid thought he was wookie and wanted a special wookie bathroom that would fit your position. That's not what's happening here.

Edited, Mar 14th 2013 7:01pm by Smasharoo
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