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#402 Mar 18 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Which is why I argued before regarding both owner protections and patron protections for restroom use. Because whatever Pollyanna dreams we may all hold for a future where no one cares... people care.

Well, someday, when no one cares, I guess we'll see progress. Like when people stopped caring that black kids went to the same school as white kids. I have a dream, that someday, people of all colors will organically decide spontaneously to respect the rights of others. Yes, this dream will take an amazingly long time, but I'll probably be dead of a sucking chest wound long before then.
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#403 Mar 18 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Well, someday, when no one cares, I guess we'll see progress.

Hang on to the dream!
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#404 Mar 18 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence, what exactly do you think is going to happen if a man walks into the ladies room? Is every woman in there going to be instantly raped? If a rapist wants to get at a woman, is she suddenly super-duper safe if she can just cross the threshold of a public restroom? Or is it that men who would ordinarily never consider harming a woman are sddenly rape-crazy at the thought of a woman on the other side of a locked stall door with her pants down ******* in a filthy toilet?

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 1:56pm by Belkira
#405 Mar 18 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Well, someday, when no one cares, I guess we'll see progress.

Hang on to the dream!

I'm proud to say I've been largely proactive in this area.
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#406 Mar 18 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:


It's just not worth it.

What's not worth it?

Allowing a husband access to the 'ladies' room to help his wife out of her wheelchair and onto the toilet?

Or maybe it's not worth allowing the 5-year old boy to enter the ladies room rather than stand outside alone in whatever public space because his mother has to relieve herself?

I can see where you'd want to dismiss those needs due to opportunistic predators paranoia - that sounds so scary.
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#407 Mar 18 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Torrence wrote:


It's just not worth it.

What's not worth it?

Allowing a husband access to the 'ladies' room to help his wife out of her wheelchair and onto the toilet?

Or maybe it's not worth allowing the 5-year old boy to enter the ladies room rather than stand outside alone in whatever public space because his mother has to relieve herself?

I can see where you'd want to dismiss those needs due to opportunistic predators paranoia - that sounds so scary.


Specific situations? Not the topic at hand. No one is going to bat an eye at a child with his mother or a husband asking for the room to be cleared so he can help his disabled wife. I'm not saying that men will become rape-crazy, either, or that somehow women are magically safe once they enter a restroom. We do, however, have a reasonable expectation that if a guy was seen entering - he'd be noticed and questioned - not just ignored because well, ***** is the same as ******, after all! There's no WAY he could possibly have a hidden agenda. The question wasn't whether a 5 year old boy or a man helping his wife should have access. The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.

Dismissing the concern is dangerous and does a disservice to the rest of the population who also deserves to have their rights respected; in this case, their right to safety. If we set a precedent that any man can enter any ladies' restroom at any time and for any reason, we take the choice away from the rest of the people just to adjust the comfort level of a few folks who probably should be getting that pesky ***** hacked off anyway.

As I've said before, I'm in favor of private restrooms in place of BOTH ***-separated ones. Then it truly becomes a non issue. Until that happens though, I'd prefer to continue to have the not entirely unreasonable expectation that when I enter a restroom, there's no men in it.

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 4:46pm by Torrence
#408 Mar 18 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.
Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.
Of course, that doesn't really give you anything to make a clear and simple rule about. Not that having a ***** or not is going to be easy to rule on anyway short of checking out everyone's crotch before they enter the toilets and I think some people may just object to that.
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#409 Mar 18 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira wrote:
Alma, why does it matter to you so much if a person born biologically male feels like a woman? Do you dispute that this happens? Do you not believe that it's possible? What's the problem?

I don't get why it's a big deal.


I've said several times that I don't care what ***/gender you feel like being. The point is that if society allows for such discrimination, then society needs to adhere to them. If society feels that the discrimination is wrong and should be changed, then it should be changed. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.

Rachel wrote:
All of it? "How many woman he has slept with" doesn't make sense as a definition for the word "man" (or any other word). If you said "a person who has slept with at least 10 woman", then it would at least make sense...


You don't have the authority to belittle my definition. That's my definition. If it doesn't make sense to you, then that's a personal problem.

P.S. It was assumed that there would be an exact number and that exact number was irrelevant because the point was on the requirement of having to sleep with women...


Rachel wrote:
They ARE held to a standard, there is just no single authority that can decide that standard.


I never said that there were only one. So I ask again, who are those authorities and what are the chosen standards? If you don't know, then you don't have much to argue against.
#410 Mar 18 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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Aethien wrote:

Torrence wrote:
The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.

Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.


And why not?

If a man simply says that he is a woman and feels inside that he is a woman, but dresses and acts like a man, why should he be treated differently? You must see the hypocrisy in all of this, especially when you're arguing about pigeon holing people into categories.
#411 Mar 18 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
I've said several times that I don't care what ***/gender you feel like being. The point is that if society allows for such discrimination, then society needs to adhere to them. If society feels that the discrimination is wrong and should be changed, then it should be changed. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.


You didn't answer the question. Do you dispute that someone can be born biologically female but should be a male and vice versa? Or do you think this is just a ploy to attract a ********* of negative attention?
#412 Mar 18 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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P.S. It was assumed that there would be an exact number and that exact number was irrelevant because the point was on the requirement of having to sleep with women...
P.S. Don't ever write a dictionary.

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So I ask again, who are those authorities and what are the chosen standards?
Every single English speaking person.
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#413 Mar 18 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Aethien wrote:

Torrence wrote:
The question was whether any man who simply says he is a woman should have unrestricted and unquestioned access based on that alone.

Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.


And why not?

If a man simply says that he is a woman and feels inside that he is a woman, but dresses and acts like a man, why should he be treated differently? You must see the hypocrisy in all of this, especially when you're arguing about pigeon holing people into categories.
She's probably not going to be using the women's bathroom in that case.
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#414 Mar 18 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:


You didn't answer the question. Do you dispute that someone can be born biologically female but should be a male and vice versa? Or do you think this is just a ploy to attract a sh*tstorm of negative attention?


I apologize for that. It wasn't intentional. I have absolutely no clue. Either or (and anything in between) is irrelevant to my point.

Rachel wrote:
P.S. Don't ever write a dictionary.


You wouldn't realize it anyway since you obviously don't know how to use one. Besides, dictionaries don't have anything to do with an irrelevant assumption based on a number.

Rachel wrote:
Every single English speaking person.


If that were true, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I didn't create those instances.

Rachel wrote:
She's probably not going to be using the women's bathroom in that case.

He shouldn't be in a woman's bathroom he's not a woman; however, if he feels like a woman, he would most definitely be in a woman's bathroom. Why on Earth shouldn't he be? What makes him any different from any other guy who feels like a woman?



#415 Mar 18 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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You wouldn't realize it anyway since you obviously don't know how to use one. Besides, dictionaries don't have anything to do with an irrelevant assumption based on a number.
I never said it was relevant to the discussion. I was just letting you know, that since you can't even make up a fake definition, you'd likely be really bad at writing a dictionary.

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He shouldn't be in a woman's bathroom he's not a woman; however, if he feels like a woman, he would most definitely be in a woman's bathroom. Why on Earth shouldn't he be? What makes him any different from any other guy who feels like a woman?
Maybe you haven't noticed, which doesn't surprise me really, but most trans people, at least for some portion of their lives, go to considerable lengths to hide the fact that they are trans. Often for 20, 30, or even 50+ years sometimes. Probably because it's likely to make everyone hate them, and possibly get them killed.
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#416 Mar 18 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel wrote:
I never said it was relevant to the discussion. I was just letting you know, that since you can't even make up a fake definition, you'd likely be really bad at writing a dictionary.


Reread my response. I was staying relevant to the discussion. Don't blame me for you assuming the stupid.

Rachel wrote:
Maybe you haven't noticed, which doesn't surprise me really, but most trans people, at least for some portion of their lives, go to considerable lengths to hide the fact that they are trans. Often for 20, 30, or even 50+ years sometimes. Probably because it's likely to make everyone hate them, and possibly get them killed.


That's completely irrelevant to my point/question. Why wouldn't he use the woman's bathroom? Why should he be treated any differently. The given fact that there are openly ***/*******/trans/etc. people, completely contradicts your claim.
#417 Mar 18 2013 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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That's completely irrelevant to my point/question.
Uh, no? You asked why she might not use the women's bathroom. I gave you a reason.
Quote:

The given fact that there are openly ***/*******/trans/etc. people, completely contradicts your claim.
Oh, i didn't realize the existence of openly ***/trans people disproves the possibility of closeted trans people. My bad!
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#418 Mar 18 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I always figured the main societal reason for seperation men and womens bathrooms was for protection. For the men...

Seriously, the random stranger ladies would kill us if we left the seat up in there. Spouses, familiy and or significant others at least have to pretend to tolerate us when that happens. And there aren't alot of things in a bathroom that you can be killed with that lead to a clean death...
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#419 Mar 18 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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After reading this, I'm not sure who I hate more: Alma or Rachel.
#420 Mar 18 2013 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel wrote:
Uh, no? You asked why she might not use the women's bathroom. I gave you a reason.




Almalieque The Great wrote:
Aethien wrote:
Obviously not but a trans woman doesn't merely say she is a woman, she feels like a woman and is likely making use of hormone therapy as well as dressing like a woman.


And why not?

If a man simply says that he is a woman and feels inside that he is a woman, but dresses and acts like a man, why should he be treated differently? You must see the hypocrisy in all of this, especially when you're arguing about pigeon holing people into categories.


You got lost in translation. Aethien stated that a trans wouldn't just say that he's a woman, but would dress and act like a woman. I was arguing against that notion. So, unless you agree with that notion, then we agree.

Rachel wrote:
Oh, i didn't realize the existence of openly ***/trans people disproves the possibility of closeted trans people. My bad!


The existence of openly ***/trans people disproves the notion that ALL men would hide their sexual preference for social acceptance. Since the conversation is about men, who feel as if they are women, but act and behave like men, your injects are irrelevant.
#421 Mar 18 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Please show me where i said "all". Or where we were talking about sexual preference.

Quote:
Aethien stated that a trans wouldn't just say that he's a woman, but would dress and act like a woman
Yes, that's usually how it goes.

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 10:21pm by Rachel9
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#422 Mar 19 2013 at 2:53 AM Rating: Good
I'm fine with dudes who became/are becoming a woman are using the ladies room & woman who are becoming/have become men use the men's room.

Anyone who isn't is probably a closet ****.

Edited, Mar 19th 2013 4:53am by Omegavegeta
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#423 Mar 19 2013 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
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After reading this, I'm not sure who I hate more: Alma or Rachel.
Why choose?
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#424 Mar 19 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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Screenshot

Discuss.
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#425 Mar 19 2013 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
After reading this, I'm not sure who I hate more: Alma or Rachel.
Screenshot

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#426 Mar 19 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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Discuss.

Not at urinal, appears to be girl sheep in girl's room.

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