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#227 Mar 12 2013 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think the issue is so much about discrimination as it is about practicality. The reality is that we live in a society where people don't like sharing restrooms with folks of the opposite *** (yes, ***, not gender. just to be clear). As long as that is the case, broad adoption of unisex facilities isn't going to work. Which leaves us with the much more expensive per person individual bathroom model or just accepting that the very small percentage of people for whom this is an issue will have to deal with it. Ultimately, it's about making one of two groups uncomfortable. One group represents a much larger percentage of the population. Again, it's about practicality.

The issue with the 6 year old kid goes far beyond the level being portrayed right now. The question is how far the rest of society has to adjust to make room for one persons self-image? It's all well and good to say that we're infringing his/her right to be a unique snowflake or something, but the problems don't stop at the grade school level. What happens when it's the locker room, or the showers, or sports? Expecting the whole rest of the world to make way for your own personal preferences is a bit silly. We have social norms for a reason, and fair or not, it's a **** of a lot easier to find ways to adjust to them, rather than make everyone adjust the other direction. This kid is going to encounter problems with his desire to be female for his entire life. Better he learn that now and figure out ways to deal with it, than run headfirst into block after block after block.

I may feel that wearing a black tie outfit to a black tie event imposes on my own personal sense of style, but guess what? I'll wear the **** monkey suit anyway. Why? Because it's a lot easier to just conform to the expected norm than to do my own thing. I kinda see this the same way. Get used to having to comply with social expectations because the world is full of them, and there's no end to the kinds of non-conforming actions one might demand they get to do instead. No one's saying you can't wear a dress if you want, but perhaps it would be better to teach the kid now that he will face problems doing so than fill his head with the false belief that the world will bend to his own desires and let him do whatever he wants.


Is that unfair? Absolutely. But in the long run, this kid will be vastly better off having realistic expectation of the world around him.
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#228 Mar 12 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't

Me either!
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#229 Mar 13 2013 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
No I didn't create anything
Not sure if serious.

You did not ask if some specific (actual) Korean who came here on vacation and stayed is a us citizen. You made up a hypothetical Korean who, in the scenario you created, came to the US on vacation, and then stayed here.

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I'm asking you if you believe any of those 11 million illegal immigrants (or legal immigrants) can call him or herself as a US citizen simply because they say they are? You answered "no, they are illegal." I responded to ask based on what? I didn't create those 11 million immigrants.
No, but you have already stated that they are illegal immigrants. Your question refers only to illegal immigrants. If they aren't illegal immigrants, then you are not asking about them, therefore every one of those 11 million people must be illegal immigrants, and therefore, not a US citizen.

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If those 11 million people say that they are US citizens, then why are you stating that they are still illegal?
Because they are either lying, or simply mistaken.

Quote:
Clearly you fail at conceptual thinking. I merely stated a Korean visitor as an example. Conceptually, it doesn't matter if it were Korean, Mexican legal or illegal because the question is the matter of US citizenship.
Obviously?

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:13am by Rachel9
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#230 Mar 13 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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But in the long run, this kid will be vastly better off having realistic expectation of the world around him.
Unless she just kills herself because she thinks death is easier than complying with such terrible expectations, and pretending to be someone she is not, as so many trans people do.

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:38am by Rachel9
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#231 Mar 13 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The reality is that we live in a society where people don't like sharing restrooms
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#232 Mar 13 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
But in the long run, this kid will be vastly better off having realistic expectation of the world around him.
Unless she just kills herself because she thinks death is easier than complying with such terrible expectations, and pretending to be someone she is not, as so many trans people do.



What is the terrible expectation? That she use the nurse's private restroom because she's different? She still gets to be a "girl", she still gets to wear a dress, she just has to face the fact that she is different than the other girls in her class because she just had a bit of bad luck and was born with the wrong parts. No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade. If these parents want to indulge the child's interest in exploring her gender options, awesome. At the same time they should be responsible parents and also teach that sometimes she's going to have challenges to overcome, like being asked not to use the girls' bathroom and instead use the private nurses' one because she has a ****.

I have to wonder what the parents expected when they decided to send her to public school.

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 1:09pm by Torrence
#233 Mar 13 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade.

Sure, worked for race, right?
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#234 Mar 13 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade.

Sure, worked for race, right?


Seriously, that sounds like the hemming and hawing language my mom uses to explain why *** people shouldn't be allowed to kiss in public.
#235 Mar 13 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be but the school wasn't ) - they are just suggesting that maybe it would be in everyone's best interest to not force the issue on other kids, especially in first @#%^ing grade.

Sure, worked for race, right?


Seriously, that sounds like the hemming and hawing language my mom uses to explain why *** people shouldn't be allowed to kiss in public.

For my money you just tell the kids straight up what's going on if they ask. They usually give you a puzzled and annoyed look, then go back to playing on the iPad once Dad is done spewing the gibberish. If they understand what you said enough to be curious and ask questions then they were old enough to know. If not, they didn't get it anyways so no harm done.

So often it seems parents are the ones with more problems than the kids anyway.
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#236 Mar 13 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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For my money you just tell the kids straight up what's going on if they ask. They usually give you a puzzled and annoyed look, then go back to playing on the iPad once Dad is done spewing the gibberish. If they understand what you said enough to be curious and ask questions then they were old enough to know. If not, they didn't get it anyways so no harm done.

So often it seems parents are the ones with more problems than the kids anyway.


Don't be silly, you'll "give them ideas". If you talk to your 9 year old about *** at noon, he'll be blowing sailors down by the docks by 5pm.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#237 Mar 13 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Patriotism at work.
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#238 Mar 13 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:


Sure, worked for race, right?


I'm not sure it amounts to the same thing. Color is a superficial difference between two penises\two vaginas at best and so yes I agree segregation based on skin color was moronic. The differences between men and women go deeper than just skin color. Just because it's the popular position that everyone agrees racism is bad doesn't mean it's a valid argument for letting males use the female restroom.
#239 Mar 13 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be
And that is who i was responding to.

And I disagree with making her use the nurse's bathroom, but i don't really have strong feelings either way on it. It's not ideal, but it's not a terrible option either.

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 2:44pm by Rachel9
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#240 Mar 13 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel wrote:
Not sure if serious.

You did not ask if some specific (actual) Korean who came here on vacation and stayed is a us citizen. You made up a hypothetical Korean who, in the scenario you created, came to the US on vacation, and then stayed here.

...

No, but you have already stated that they are illegal immigrants. Your question refers only to illegal immigrants. If they aren't illegal immigrants, then you are not asking about them, therefore every one of those 11 million people must be illegal immigrants, and therefore, not a US citizen.


You fail at conceptual thinking. I didn't make anything up, unless you believe we have no immigration.

Rachel wrote:
Because they are either lying, or simply mistaken.


The question is based on what? You have 11 million people here that are LABELED illegal. If those 11 million people decided to LABEL themselves as legal, what determines which label is correct? How are they lying or simply mistaken?
#241 Mar 13 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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I tire of this, if you have a point, make it, otherwise read my previous posts, i've already responded.
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#242 Mar 13 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
I tire of this, if you have a point, make it, otherwise read my previous posts, i've already responded.


Hah, without even reading Alma's posts, I know exactly what's happening in this thread.
#243 Mar 13 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
No one is suggesting she start wearing boys clothes and deny her gender (well, gbaji might be
And that is who i was responding to.


I'm great at identifying how the real world works though. Is she really "denying her gender" though? I mean, it's not like girls can't wear pants and whatnot. And frankly, I don't care what clothes she wears anyway. That's not the issue. The issue is a biological boy going into the restroom with the biological girls. What she thinks her gender is, or what she identifies as is really irrelevant in this context because everyone else identifies her as a boy.

Fair or not, there are two choices:

1. Make her uncomfortable having to use the boys restroom like all the other kids with male genitalia. No one's forcing her to pee at a communal urinal if she doesn't want to btw.

2. Make every other girl in the school uncomfortable having someone they identify as a "boy" using their restroom.

Her discomfort is no less in her own head as that of the other girls. I just find it really strange that we assume she should not have to bend her view of gender/*** roles in society one bit, but instead every other person should bend theirs to accommodate her. That's not just strange, but also completely unworkable. Telling everyone else to "get over it" is no less unfair to them then telling the trangender person to "get over it". Yet one is considered some horrific violation of someone's rights, while the other is viewed (by some) with some kind of smug satisfaction at putting one over on society or something.

Sorry, but that really makes no sense at all if you stop and think about it. She has no more right to insist that the other girls must allow her (a biological boy) to share their restroom than they have to insist she should not. But there's more of them. Unfair? Maybe. But that's how societies work. Learning this and getting over it is better done earlier rather than later.
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#244 Mar 13 2013 at 8:32 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
The question is based on what? You have 11 million people here that are LABELED illegal. If those 11 million people decided to LABEL themselves as legal, what determines which label is correct? How are they lying or simply mistaken?


Classic Alma right there!
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#245 Mar 13 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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What you don't seem to be getting, gbaji, is that this isn't just about one individual, but an entire minority. And you're basically saying to them, "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist."
#246 Mar 13 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm great at identifying how the real world works though.
Despite all the evidence to the contrary.
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#247 Mar 14 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
And you're basically saying to them, "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist. Vote Republican."

Why I has not votes? Smiley: frown
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#248 Mar 14 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
What you don't seem to be getting, gbaji, is that this isn't just about one individual, but an entire minority.


I get that. But then we're also not talking about just this one school, or one class, but everyone who isn't transgender. Ultimately, we're looking at two groups with incompatible needs. One group's needs are no more irrational than the other, so doesn't it make more sense to inconvenience the smallest group possible?

Quote:
And you're basically saying to them, "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist."


The alternative is to tell everyone else "You make us uncomfortable and we don't like it. Go away and hide yourself, pretend you are someone else so we can continue to put our heads in the sand and pretend you don't exist." Can't you see that it's the same thing in either direction? Non transgendered folks are uncomfortable with someone of a different *** using the same restroom because they make that determination based on ***, while transgendered folks are uncomfortable using the restroom with people of the same *** because they make that determination based on gender identity instead.

Who wins? Is it any less fair to the non-transgendered folks to be forced to share a restroom with someone they feel uncomfortable with, than the other way around? Being in a minority group doesn't automatically make what you want the right choice.
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#249 Mar 14 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I get that. But then we're also not talking about just this one school, or one class, but everyone who isn't very wealthy. Ultimately, we're looking at two groups with incompatible needs. One group's needs are no more irrational than the other, so doesn't it make more sense to inconvenience the smallest group possible?

Awesome argument for raising the marginal tax rate on income above $300k to 95%.

Good work, comrade.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#250 Mar 14 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's like you've never been trickled down on... Smiley: oyvey
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#251 Mar 14 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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What is the terrible expectation? That she use the nurse's private restroom because she's different? She still gets to be a "girl", she still gets to wear a dress, she just has to face the fact that she is different than the other girls in her class because she just had a bit of bad luck and was born with the wrong parts.

It's the same terrible expectation of a black girl having to use a black restroom. What's the fucking disconnect? GID is real. It's a settled medical question. The age of onset is less clear, but what possible benefit is there to *actively preventing* a child from using a restroom that makes them marginally less stigmatized? What's the downside? Remember schools not allowing children with HIV to attend school? This will be that at some point in the hopefully not too far off future. Let me say again, this isn't a debatable thing. There's been a debate, for decades. If the kid thought he was wookie and wanted a special wookie bathroom that would fit your position. That's not what's happening here.

Edited, Mar 14th 2013 7:01pm by Smasharoo
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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