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#102 Mar 08 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:


I'd wager that more often than not the answer is because they are different people, and not, as a lot of feminists would like to believe, because they are different genders.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 4:28pm by cidbahamut

They are different people.

And when you average out all the wages of all the different people at all the different education levels, women earn about 70% of what men do (in the US) across the board.

This is fact.

You can argue about why they make less; Maybe they don't work at jobs that are worth as much. Maybe they have to take time out of their ladder climbing to have babies. Maybe they're even paid less simply because they have boobs. But to simply declare that the whole deal is made up by feminists is stupid...and sexist.

And that's not at all what I did, but thank you for demonstrating one of the things about feminism that makes it insufferable.

Feminism is not infallible, and pointing out potential holes in the rhetoric does not make me sexist/misogynist/whatever, but if anyone expresses anything other than complete agreement, they get branded as some sort of heretic.

The whole movement hinges on an innate desire to be angry at something. In this case it just happens to be anyone who had the audacity to be born with a *****.

You want to talk about ending discrimination against women? I'm totally on board with that.
You want to talk about feminism? **** off back to tumblr.
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#103 Mar 08 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
I agree. So lets close the gender wage gap and stop objectifying women. Win/win!
Or women could ask for better starting pay instead of settling for the lowball first offer and be more aggressive about raises while simultaneously objectifying men and we'd also have equality. Smiley: nod
#104 Mar 08 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a friend she applied to a few places, was offered a job, she accepted one, a day later another place offered her a job for 7 dollars less, but it was closer to home. She took the lesser paying closer to home job.

Things like that never mess with the results right?

And Yes I know there is a pay disparity but how many woman take lower pay for other intangible benefits? (Closer to home, more lenient work hours, better benefits, etc) Not saying this is always the case but from my point of view, I will take a higher paying job with less QoL benefits than a lower paying job with more QoL benefits.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 5:17pm by BeanX
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#105 Mar 08 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
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BeanX wrote:
I have a friend she applied to a few places, was offered a job, she accepted a day later another place offered her a job for 7 dollars less, but it was closer to home. She took the lesser paying closer to home job.

Things like that never mess with the results right?

And Yes I know there is a pay disparity but how many woman take lower pay for other untangible benefits? (Closer to home, more lenient work hours, better benefits, etc) Not saying this is always the case but from my point of view, I will take a higher paying job with less QoL benefits than a lower paying job with more QoL benefits.

I'd actually say it's a wash since I'm sure men do it as well. Heck I've not bothered to look for a better paying job than the one I currently have because I can literally walk to work and management has been very accommodating in terms of schedule. It doesn't hurt that the people are pretty agreeable either. That said, the pay is not so great for what the position is, but for now it's a trade-off I've made so I'm sure there are others doing the same.
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#106 Mar 08 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:


You want to talk about ending discrimination against women? I'm totally on board with that.
You want to talk about feminism? @#%^ off back to tumblr.
Ending discrimination against women is feminism.
This is your quote:
Cid wrote:
TLW wrote:
TL;DR While there is some legitimate cause for concern, a lot of times people are looking to be offended and get off on getting angry.


This is feminism in a nutshell as far as I can tell.

If someone is looking to be offended they're not exhibiting feminism they're exhibiting immaturity.


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#107 Mar 08 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Elinda wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:


I'd wager that more often than not the answer is because they are different people, and not, as a lot of feminists would like to believe, because they are different genders.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 4:28pm by cidbahamut

They are different people.

And when you average out all the wages of all the different people at all the different education levels, women earn about 70% of what men do (in the US) across the board.

This is fact.

You can argue about why they make less; Maybe they don't work at jobs that are worth as much. Maybe they have to take time out of their ladder climbing to have babies. Maybe they're even paid less simply because they have boobs. But to simply declare that the whole deal is made up by feminists is stupid...and sexist.

And that's not at all what I did, but thank you for demonstrating one of the things about feminism that makes it insufferable.

Feminism is not infallible, and pointing out potential holes in the rhetoric does not make me sexist/misogynist/whatever, but if anyone expresses anything other than complete agreement, they get branded as some sort of heretic.

The whole movement hinges on an innate desire to be angry at something. In this case it just happens to be anyone who had the audacity to be born with a *****.

You want to talk about ending discrimination against women? I'm totally on board with that.
You want to talk about feminism? @#%^ off back to tumblr.

QED Smiley: nod
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#108 Mar 08 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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It appears that some people are confused about how the gender wage gap is calculated.

It also appears that some people have a problem with individuals and like to stereotype a valid political movement with a certain type of personality that they dislike.
#109 Mar 08 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
The whole movement hinges on an innate desire to be angry at something. In this case it just happens to be anyone who had the audacity to be born with a *****.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the whole movement of feminism doesn't hinge on "an innate desire to be angry at something." I'm going out on a limb here, I know.

Fuck you're dumb.
#110 Mar 08 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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BeanX wrote:
And Yes I know there is a pay disparity but how many woman take lower pay for other intangible benefits? (Closer to home, more lenient work hours, better benefits, etc) .

If it helps even things out I did this. I wanted a family, so I worked hard to get myself into a job with flexible hours and great benefits. We moved so I would have a shorter commute and could do more with the kids. It was a priority, more-so than salary.

But you're right, I don't think most men think that way. There's more of an empathesis on take-home pay, and promotion opportunities; but hey that's how we're judged by society anyway. Good family man doesn't seem to ring as loudly as well paid in this world. One more piece of the puzzle that could use some resolving really if we're working to breakdown problematic stereotypes.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 3:28pm by someproteinguy
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#111 Mar 08 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:
Elinda wrote:

You want to talk about ending discrimination against women? I'm totally on board with that.
You want to talk about feminism? @#%^ off back to tumblr.
Ending discrimination against women is feminism.

Not in my experience.

Feminism always seems to be about being really angry at people who have a *****, playing the victim card, and raging about the patriarchy.
It's fueled by the same fires that power heated MMO forum arguments. The desire to be correct and lord it over others, all the while playing the victim or rubbing your opponent's nose in the fact that you're right and therefor better than them. I recognize the pattern and it's very similar to what I see on MMORPG boards elsewhere. It's only superficially about ending discrimination against women.

Now there are people out there doing what they can to end discrimination against women who apply the label "feminism" to what they do, but by and large "feminism" is a movement of vitriol rather than progress and the two movements are conflated in their terminology.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 6:29pm by cidbahamut
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#112 Mar 08 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
It also appears that some people have a problem with individuals and like to stereotype a valid political movement with a certain type of personality that they dislike.


Cid went from doubting that the gender wage gap was due entirely and solely to gender differences to Elinda accusing him of denying the gap even existed and implying he was sexist and stupid.

This behavior (Elinda's) is what leads to the perception that most (vocal) feminists are rabid man haters who latch on to the movement as a vessel to distribute that anger. It's less of a stereotype and more an observation. Not all feminists are this way, and I think most Asylumites are culturally aware enough to admit that there are some political, social and work related issues stemming from said gender differences, but the feminist movement generally seems more about blaming men for all the world's female equality disparity. It's not helpful, and certainly doesn't do well to reach any potential male audience.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#113 Mar 08 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Elinda wrote:

You want to talk about ending discrimination against women? I'm totally on board with that.
You want to talk about feminism? @#%^ off back to tumblr.
Ending discrimination against women is feminism.

Not in my experience.

Feminism always seems to be about being really angry at people who have a *****, playing the victim card, and raging about the patriarchy.
It's fueled by the same fires that power heated MMO forum arguments. The desire to be correct and lord it over others, all the while playing the victim or rubbing your opponent's nose in the fact that you're right and therefor better than them. I recognize the pattern and it's very similar to what I see on MMORPG boards elsewhere. It's only superficially about ending discrimination against women.

Now there are people out there doing what they can to end discrimination against women who apply the label "feminism" to what they do, but by and large "feminism" is a movement of vitriol rather than progress and the two movements are conflated in their terminology.


Your understanding of feminism seems to be entirely predicated on a few anecdotal MMORPG experiences that you've had. Do you realize that it's a much larger movement, with a great deal of history behind it?
#114 Mar 08 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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Congratulations. You've just bought into the propaganda that sexists use to keep sexism alive and well.

ETA: This post was aimed at Cid, but apparently applies to BD as well.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 5:34pm by Belkira

Edit 2: bad =\= BD. ******* autocorrect.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 5:35pm by Belkira
#115 Mar 08 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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One of the reasons why sexism is much harder to fight is because of its broad definition as opposed to racism.
#116cidbahamut, Posted: Mar 08 2013 at 5:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thank you for putting it more eloquently than I could.
#117 Mar 08 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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The idea that feminism is truly represented by only the people using the name to be a "man-hater" is the same type of mindset that all Muslims are terrorists. Or all men are rapists. Or all Catholic priests are pedophiles.

I don't understand why people can understand the "one bad apple shouldn't spoil the whole bunch" with anything BUT feminism.
#118 Mar 08 2013 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It also appears that some people have a problem with individuals and like to stereotype a valid political movement with a certain type of personality that they dislike.


Cid went from doubting that the gender wage gap was due entirely and solely to gender differences to Elinda accusing him of denying the gap even existed and implying he was sexist and stupid.

This behavior (Elinda's) is what leads to the perception that most (vocal) feminists are rabid man haters who latch on to the movement as a vessel to distribute that anger. It's less of a stereotype and more an observation. Not all feminists are this way, and I think most Asylumites are culturally aware enough to admit that there are some political, social and work related issues stemming from said gender differences, but the feminist movement generally seems more about blaming men for all the world's female equality disparity. It's not helpful, and certainly doesn't do well to reach any potential male audience.

Thank you for putting it more eloquently than I could.
My behavior?

Are you serious?

He made sexist stupid comments - not my fault.
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#119 Mar 08 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira wrote:
The idea that feminism is truly represented by only the people using the name to be a "man-hater"


I certainly didn't say that. What I did say is that portion of the group seems to be the most outspoken.

Quote:
I don't understand why people can understand the "one bad apple shouldn't spoil the whole bunch" with anything BUT feminism.


What part of "Not all feminists are this way, and I think most Asylumites are culturally aware enough to admit that there are some political, social and work related issues stemming from said gender differences" was so remarkably unclear?

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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#120 Mar 08 2013 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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the wife just finished ranting about how incompetent WALL-E is and how those kinds of men bug her to no end. Suddenly something that seemed like an interesting concept in my mind went up in smoke. Smiley: lol

Heh, Flea told me once about some boyfriend who had some misfortune befall him (lost his job or some such). He pretty much broke down and was like "What am I ever going to do?" and that it was a huge turn-off to see some dude essentially begging her for rescue. (Note that this is different from saying "This sucks but I'm going to man up and soldier on; hope you support me"). I can't imagine a plot where the woman has to rescue some basket case of a man would hold much interest for her.
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#121 Mar 08 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
He made sexist stupid comments - not my fault.


Anyone who disagrees with your assessment is sexist or stupid (or both). Pretty typical, I'd say.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#122 Mar 08 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
Belkira wrote:
The idea that feminism is truly represented by only the people using the name to be a "man-hater"


I certainly didn't say that. What I did say is that portion of the group seems to be the most outspoken.

Quote:
I don't understand why people can understand the "one bad apple shouldn't spoil the whole bunch" with anything BUT feminism.


What part of "Not all feminists are this way, and I think most Asylumites are culturally aware enough to admit that there are some political, social and work related issues stemming from said gender differences" was so remarkably unclear?



The part that you conveniently left off.

Quote:
...but the feminist movement generally seems more about blaming men for all the world's female equality disparity.




ETA: also this wasn't aimed solely at you, but at CID as well. Mostly, even, as you only jumped in to defend his honor.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 6:06pm by Belkira
#123 Mar 08 2013 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
The part that you conveniently left off.
Quote:
...but the feminist movement generally seems more about blaming men for all the world's female equality disparity.


So it's not OK for me to not reference a particular part of a paragraph, but it's perfectly ok for you to isolate that same section and make a generalized statement in response? That's a bit of a double standard, don't you think? The message is the sum of it's parts, not any given part by itself. Quit being a dunce.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#124 Mar 08 2013 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
Elinda wrote:
He made sexist stupid comments - not my fault.


Anyone who disagrees with your assessment is sexist or stupid (or both). Pretty typical, I'd say.

I pointed out the parts that were stupid and sexist.

...and no anyone who disagrees with me isn't called names.

Is anyone who disagrees with you rated down? (no need to answer that - it's rhetorical)
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#125 Mar 08 2013 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
Elinda wrote:
He made sexist stupid comments - not my fault.


Anyone who disagrees with your assessment is sexist or stupid (or both). Pretty typical, I'd say.

Exactly.

If you don't 100% agree with feminists, you're a dirty heathen. No criticism is allowed. Ever.

Didn't you get the memo? Critical thinking makes you sexist.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#126 Mar 08 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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WTF are you people rattling about?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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