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Alma wrote:
I lost my post
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It appears that some people are confused about how the gender wage gap is calculated.
I don't dispute that there's a wage gap, I just want to make sure that when we're comparing things, with all things being equal, we're actually comparing things where all things being equal.
Smasharoo wrote:
Also, women aren't paid less on average because they chose some value other than money, or because they choose to stay home and raise kids, they aren't bad negotiators who won't quit and will work for less pay. Women aren't valued appropriately by the market because of bias. It's not complicated. Surprising as it may seem, given the last 100 years of social science, you @#%^ing idiots aren't the first ones to have these sorts of epiphanies. You can fairly trivially control for these factors, when you do, it turns out women are paid less. The most likely reason seems to be that men make most of the wage decisions, and people are more likely to pay higher wages to people who look like them. Sounds idiotically simple, but sometimes that's how it works. If you're not a white guy, you aren't getting the white guy money.
Edited, Mar 9th 2013 11:47pm by Aripyanfar
The data Ugly's looking for is here:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook-2011.pdf
Probably the most interesting part for him would be starting at page 55.
And interesting data to be noted starting at page 69 dealing with percentage of the workforces, by sex, that are full/part time.
Page 73 shows average hours worked split out by sex.
The only thing that irks me about the data layout, is how they combine Salary and Wage into one value. Just because in my mind, hourly wage is much more likely to be something standardized and less likely to show difference. I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that if it were divided out into two categories, you'd see a much better Wage performance and a much worse Salary performance.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook-2011.pdf
Probably the most interesting part for him would be starting at page 55.
And interesting data to be noted starting at page 69 dealing with percentage of the workforces, by sex, that are full/part time.
Page 73 shows average hours worked split out by sex.
The only thing that irks me about the data layout, is how they combine Salary and Wage into one value. Just because in my mind, hourly wage is much more likely to be something standardized and less likely to show difference. I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that if it were divided out into two categories, you'd see a much better Wage performance and a much worse Salary performance.
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
To the original topic and not the deranged derailing by Rush Limbaugh's more retarded little brothers, I think her argument about the use of the over-use of the Damsel in Distress trope is spot on.
It doesn't matter if Link loves Zelda or Mario is in a relationship with Peach, that's simply the motivational factor for their characters to rescue the damsel. The women themselves are nothing more than an object waiting to be saved, completely incapable of saving themselves, and the reason why the main male protagonists want to rescue them isn't part of that equation. The simple fact is it is A) **** poor storytelling and B) really, really sexist. Now, there are any number of games that break this trope and try to turn it on its head, but there are far, far more that simply recycle the stereotype that women are weak, can't protect themselves, and need to be rescued by the avatar of the man playing the video game. The sooner we get away from this sort of ****, the sooner we get better video games.
Also, she didn't make her argument in some sort of shrill way, nor did she characterize all men as women-haters, nor did she say that video games were the only place where this sort of trope is used and abused. She made a solid assessment of the overuse of the trope in video games and discussed why she felt it was perpetuating the stereotypes that women have been trying to overcome for centuries.
Now to the derailing.
Brown Duck, making a point more eloquently doesn't make the point valid. It's like when gbaji decides to jump into an argument. You're bound to get well-written paragraph after well-written paragraph, but at the end of the day, his arguments — when you look at them deeply — are infantile and often fundamentally flawed.
Saying that "the loudest voices of feminism" are shrill, and man-hating is simply wrong. You are forgetting to ask the most important question, "Who is putting these voices forward?" The answer, almost universally, isn't women. It's misogynists like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the far-right who cater to those that often believe that women's place is to be subjugated to men. How many times must we hear the latest outrage from the "femi-*****" on Limbaugh's show (that you hear only in specific echo chambers) before you realize that you are being that its all a plan to get you upset at feminists as a whole?
It doesn't matter if Link loves Zelda or Mario is in a relationship with Peach, that's simply the motivational factor for their characters to rescue the damsel. The women themselves are nothing more than an object waiting to be saved, completely incapable of saving themselves, and the reason why the main male protagonists want to rescue them isn't part of that equation. The simple fact is it is A) **** poor storytelling and B) really, really sexist. Now, there are any number of games that break this trope and try to turn it on its head, but there are far, far more that simply recycle the stereotype that women are weak, can't protect themselves, and need to be rescued by the avatar of the man playing the video game. The sooner we get away from this sort of ****, the sooner we get better video games.
Also, she didn't make her argument in some sort of shrill way, nor did she characterize all men as women-haters, nor did she say that video games were the only place where this sort of trope is used and abused. She made a solid assessment of the overuse of the trope in video games and discussed why she felt it was perpetuating the stereotypes that women have been trying to overcome for centuries.
Now to the derailing.
Brown Duck, making a point more eloquently doesn't make the point valid. It's like when gbaji decides to jump into an argument. You're bound to get well-written paragraph after well-written paragraph, but at the end of the day, his arguments — when you look at them deeply — are infantile and often fundamentally flawed.
Saying that "the loudest voices of feminism" are shrill, and man-hating is simply wrong. You are forgetting to ask the most important question, "Who is putting these voices forward?" The answer, almost universally, isn't women. It's misogynists like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the far-right who cater to those that often believe that women's place is to be subjugated to men. How many times must we hear the latest outrage from the "femi-*****" on Limbaugh's show (that you hear only in specific echo chambers) before you realize that you are being that its all a plan to get you upset at feminists as a whole?
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machin ery of night.
Grady wrote:
The women themselves are nothing more than an object waiting to be saved, completely incapable of saving themselves
If they were capable of saving themselves, there wouldn't be a game.
It's like when people criticize a movie saying "Why didn't the character just call the police in the first 10 minutes?" Well, because then it would have been a ten minute long movie. Likewise, games about self-rescuing damsels don't last very long (unless you're taking the role of said damsel).
Quote:
The sooner we get away from this sort of sh*t, the sooner we get better video games.
Nonsense. Mario Brothers would be the same game if Mario was rescuing his young nephew or chasing after his lost (male!) dog something "non-sexist" like that. Princess Peach being a woman didn't detract anything from the game. It may be a common convention, it may even be an overused convention but that doesn't make it automatically detrimental to the game.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
edit: nvm
Edited, Mar 11th 2013 12:51pm by cidbahamut
Edited, Mar 11th 2013 12:51pm by cidbahamut
Server: Midgardsormr
Occupation: Reckless Red Mage
I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
Occupation: Reckless Red Mage
IcookPizza wrote:
I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
You're bound to get well-written paragraph after well-written paragraph
Let's not go to crazytown here. I don't think I've ever seen a "well written" Gbaji post. Did you mean 'spell checked'?
Let's not go to crazytown here. I don't think I've ever seen a "well written" Gbaji post. Did you mean 'spell checked'?
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Jophiel wrote:
Grady wrote:
The women themselves are nothing more than an object waiting to be saved, completely incapable of saving themselves
If they were capable of saving themselves, there wouldn't be a game.
It's like when people criticize a movie saying "Why didn't the character just call the police in the first 10 minutes?" Well, because then it would have been a ten minute long movie. Likewise, games about self-rescuing damsels don't last very long (unless you're taking the role of said damsel).
Quote:
The sooner we get away from this sort of sh*t, the sooner we get better video games.
Nonsense. Mario Brothers would be the same game if Mario was rescuing his young nephew or chasing after his lost (male!) dog something "non-sexist" like that. Princess Peach being a woman didn't detract anything from the game. It may be a common convention, it may even be an overused convention but that doesn't make it automatically detrimental to the game.
Sure but there's a lot more involved to a weekly hour-long show filled with dialogue than a game where some Italian guy jumps on walking mushrooms and turtles for eight hours. Gender flipping in Super Mario Bros. might have been good for a momentary "Oh HO! Hahaha..." but that's about it.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Aripyanfar wrote:
The gender switch rescue trope was actually one of the things I really liked about the X-Files. Mulder was more emotional, Scully more business like. Mulder was out to make connections with the people on the case, Scully was more on the look out for danger. She'd pull her gun way more often than Mulder, and so with a few, notable and dramatic exceptions, it was usually Scully who went in to rescue Mulder's life, after he'd gotten himself in a pickle.
And yet, David was still paid more than Gillian.
Grady wrote:
The sooner we get away from this sort of sh*t, the sooner we get better video games.
Bowser kidnaps Mario's rake.
Bowser kidnaps Luigi.
Bowser kidnaps Bowser.
Boy, can you just imagine how much more amazing the games would be!
This is also the franchise that they play tennis and drive go-carts together. Bowser isn't kidnapping Peach, it's a ******* fetish sex game between the lot of them.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Bowser needs to be Mario's long lost father, Peach could be Mario's sister... hey I bet we could get 3 movies out of this!
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
It'd be funnier if Peach was the Han and Luigi was the Leia.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
I sure there's someone out there who would be happy to see Luigi in the slave outfit.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Torrence wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
The gender switch rescue trope was actually one of the things I really liked about the X-Files. Mulder was more emotional, Scully more business like. Mulder was out to make connections with the people on the case, Scully was more on the look out for danger. She'd pull her gun way more often than Mulder, and so with a few, notable and dramatic exceptions, it was usually Scully who went in to rescue Mulder's life, after he'd gotten himself in a pickle.
And yet, David was still paid more than Gillian.
Matt Smith should be paid more than either of them, I mean, he travels through time! That must be really hard.
Seriously, I don't get this post.
The gender switch rescue trope was actually one of the things I really liked about the X-Files. Mulder was more emotional, Scully more business like. Mulder was out to make connections with the people on the case, Scully was more on the look out for danger. She'd pull her gun way more often than Mulder, and so with a few, notable and dramatic exceptions, it was usually Scully who went in to rescue Mulder's life, after he'd gotten himself in a pickle.
It's 2013. Just letting you know, there are better metaphors now. Olivia from Fringe, for instance. Nearly identical character that you don't need to be 40 to know who it is.
It's 2013. Just letting you know, there are better metaphors now. Olivia from Fringe, for instance. Nearly identical character that you don't need to be 40 to know who it is.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Yeah, never got around to pirating Fringe. It hasn't been on australian TV. I'd mention Bones, but she never really hauls Booth out of deadly danger.
lolgaxe wrote:
Bowser kidnaps Luigi.
http://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_is_Missing!
Just putting that out there.
Server: Midgardsormr
Occupation: Reckless Red Mage
I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
Occupation: Reckless Red Mage
IcookPizza wrote:
I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
Aripyanfar wrote:
Yeah, never got around to pirating Fringe. It hasn't been on australian TV. I'd mention Bones, but she never really hauls Booth out of deadly danger.
She doesn't, and while I love the show Seeley really comes off like a buffoon most of the time.
My other comment about David and Gillian was because there was some mention of the inequality of pay between men and women earlier in the thread, so it's interesting that while the show itself portrayed the Scully character as being the more solid\protector of the Mulder character, in real life the female versus male inequalities still existed. She wasn't valued as highly as he was though her contribution to the show was quite equal.
cidbahamut wrote:
Just putting that out there.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
The point is that you rarely see men put in the similar situation, and, perhaps as a result, we as a society give tacet acceptance to the "women are weak and men must be the hero" mentality. Sure, it could have been Mario's dog, but it's not. And, women in most video games on the market in the past and even today are weak, sexual objects to be rescued by the big, awesome male hero.
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machin ery of night.
Grady wrote:
The point is that you rarely see men put in the similar situation, and, perhaps as a result, we as a society give tacet acceptance to the "women are weak and men must be the hero" mentality.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Do most games today have women as "Weak, sexual" objects? I could see an argument for sexual, but weak? I can't think of a recent game that exclusively had women as weak objects (versus games that had both weak men AND women such as Far Cry 3). I don't play consoles though and could have missed some PC title.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Do most games today have women as "Weak, sexual" objects?
Yes.
I can't think of a recent game that exclusively had women as weak objects
Oh is that the criteria? Exclusivity? Since when has that mattered? "Well, we did make a game where you bang a hooker to restore health and then you can kill her to get your money back with no consequence, but we ALSO have a women who can shoot you with a minigun, so we're good, right?"
Yes.
I can't think of a recent game that exclusively had women as weak objects
Oh is that the criteria? Exclusivity? Since when has that mattered? "Well, we did make a game where you bang a hooker to restore health and then you can kill her to get your money back with no consequence, but we ALSO have a women who can shoot you with a minigun, so we're good, right?"
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
And boy, is that important to GTA's storyline.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
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