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#27 Feb 15 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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no i mean the speed could have been recorded via ups, not what was on his dash.
#28 Feb 15 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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KTurner wrote:
Quote:
But, as you say, the car would use that as the number to report (what other number could it use?).


GPS?



TirithRR wrote:
Ya, GPS... but you really think he was using GPS instead of the vehicle speedometer to set his cruise control?


This. I'm sure they used GPS to track where the car went (the map data they have), but the speed data is probably pulled right out of the OBDII bus, which is exactly where the displayed speed on the speedometer comes from. How else would they get such detailed speed data for when he was driving around in the parking lot? GPS is nifty and all that, but it's not quite that accurate, nor is it typically polled at that kind of rate.
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#29 Feb 15 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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KTurner wrote:
no i mean the speed could have been recorded via ups, not what was on his dash.


But.

If the problem was 19 inch tires instead of the configured 21 inch, his actual ground speed would be LESS than reported. Meaning if he thought the speedometer said 45, and the tire size was configured wrong, any GPS measurement would read LESS than 45mph, not greater.
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#30 Feb 15 2013 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Dunno, coming from a computer support background, his whole account reminds me of folks who did something to make their computers break, but want to blame it on the computer instead of themselves, but don't actually know enough about the technology to lie correctly about it. It's really really obvious when people do this, but they don't realize it.

From what we know of your ability to discern obvious things, I'm going to say a lot of people had hardware failures that you didn't help with.
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#31 Feb 15 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
KTurner wrote:
no i mean the speed could have been recorded via ups, not what was on his dash.


But.

If the problem was 19 inch tires instead of the configured 21 inch, his actual ground speed would be LESS than reported. Meaning if he thought the speedometer said 45, and the tire size was configured wrong, any GPS measurement would read LESS than 45mph, not greater.


That's backwards, I think. The cars speedometer will report that it's traveling slightly faster than it's actually going. It thinks each rotation of the tire is X distance, when it's really traveling slightly less than X (cause of a smaller circumference). So the actual ground speed will be GREATER than that reported by the speedometer, not less. So if the speedometer says 45 mph, you might actually be traveling 47 mph. So an external measuring system (assuming it's accurate, which GPS isn't really) would show you traveling faster than what's reported on the dash.

The problem is that it assumes that Tesla is using speed data calculated via GPS (which they could, but I'd doubt it). Also, even if they were, it cannot possibly account for the vast differences between what the reporter claimed he was doing while "limping along", and how fast they measured him going. Oh. And we also don't know what the actual difference in total tire/wheel diameter is. The tire size is the inner diameter of the tire (the size of the actual wheel). The other numbers tell us how tall the sidewall is, and how wide the tire is (which is why when you see larger diameter wheels, they're usually accompanied with lower profile tires. The actual total diameter is unchanged). Most folks use offset calculations when changing to different wheel sizes so that the actual total diameter of the outer edge of the tire is very close to what it was with the original wheel size. Usually, when going to a smaller size, you get better performance and mph because while the total diameter doesn't change much, the weight of the wheel itself differs dramatically. That's weight that's pushed around with every rotation and has a bigger impact than the total diameter as the reporter seems to be trying to claim.


But then the reporter probably has no clue about the actual effect of changing out wheel and tire sizes. And of course, all of this assumes that Tesla didn't calibrate their speedometer to the size wheel that they themselves put on the car. Which seems unlikely to begin with.

Edited, Feb 15th 2013 4:16pm by gbaji
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#32 Feb 15 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
KTurner wrote:
no i mean the speed could have been recorded via ups, not what was on his dash.


But.

If the problem was 19 inch tires instead of the configured 21 inch, his actual ground speed would be LESS than reported. Meaning if he thought the speedometer said 45, and the tire size was configured wrong, any GPS measurement would read LESS than 45mph, not greater.


That's backwards, I think. The cars speedometer will report that it's traveling slightly faster than it's actually going. It thinks each rotation of the tire is X distance, when it's really traveling slightly less than X (cause of a smaller circumference). So the actual ground speed will be GREATER than that reported by the speedometer, not less. So if the speedometer says 45 mph, you might actually be traveling 47 mph. So an external measuring system (assuming it's accurate, which GPS isn't really) would show you traveling faster than what's reported on the dash.


No.

If you're configured for a 21 inch wheel but have a 19 inch wheel, then your car thinks that the outside circumference of the tire is greater than it actually is. So your car thinks your vehicle is traveling further per revolution than it actually is.

If your car thought you traveled 20 inches per revolution, but you only really traveled 10 inches per revolution, your car would think you were going twice the speed.

Smaller tires than configured = slower actual speed vs reported.

Edited, Feb 16th 2013 12:36pm by TirithRR
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#33 Feb 16 2013 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
Smasharoo wrote:
Dunno, coming from a computer support background, his whole account reminds me of folks who did something to make their computers break, but want to blame it on the computer instead of themselves, but don't actually know enough about the technology to lie correctly about it. It's really really obvious when people do this, but they don't realize it.

From what we know of your ability to discern obvious things, I'm going to say a lot of people had hardware failures that you didn't help with.


"I want to get a refund on my computer."

"Okay, can you describe your problem?"

"The cup holder was too flimsy and broke right off. Now my computer won't turn on."

".... Excuse me?"

"You know, the little cup holder tray. You push the button and it comes out. It's too weak for a Big Gulp. It snapped right off and spilled soda all over my computer. Now it won't turn on. None of the lights are working and it makes no noises."

"Sir, your computer doesn't come with a 'cup holder.'"

"Don't you tell me what my computer did and did not come with! I picked this model specifically because it had the cup holder."

"Yes, it has a tray that slides out, but -"

"You guys really need to design these things better."

"Sir, that's the CD tray."

"The - the what?"

"The CD tray. Your computer plays CDs. You put them in the tray and it reads them."

*click*

"Sir?"

Edited, Feb 16th 2013 1:10am by catwho
#34 Feb 16 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Dunno, coming from a computer support background, his whole account reminds me of folks who did something to make their computers break, but want to blame it on the computer instead of themselves, but don't actually know enough about the technology to lie correctly about it. It's really really obvious when people do this, but they don't realize it.

From what we know of your ability to discern obvious things, I'm going to say a lot of people had hardware failures that you didn't help with.


"I want to get a refund on my computer."

"Okay, can you describe your problem?"

"The cup holder was too flimsy and broke right off. Now my computer won't turn on."

".... Excuse me?"

"You know, the little cup holder tray. You push the button and it comes out. It's too weak for a Big Gulp. It snapped right off and spilled soda all over my computer. Now it won't turn on. None of the lights are working and it makes no noises."

"Sir, your computer doesn't come with a 'cup holder.'"

"Don't you tell me what my computer did and did not come with! I picked this model specifically because it had the cup holder."

"Yes, it has a tray that slides out, but -"

"You guys really need to design these things better."

"Sir, that's the CD tray."

"The - the what?"

"The CD tray. Your computer plays CDs. You put them in the tray and it reads them."

*click*

"Sir?"

Edited, Feb 16th 2013 1:10am by catwho
http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport

Edited, Feb 16th 2013 8:55am by Spoonless
#35 Feb 18 2013 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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God I rated gbaji up to excellent. I feel dirty.
#36 Feb 19 2013 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
gbaji wrote:
That's backwards, I think. The cars speedometer will report that it's traveling slightly faster than it's actually going. It thinks each rotation of the tire is X distance, when it's really traveling slightly less than X (cause of a smaller circumference). So the actual ground speed will be GREATER than that reported by the speedometer, not less. So if the speedometer says 45 mph, you might actually be traveling 47 mph. So an external measuring system (assuming it's accurate, which GPS isn't really) would show you traveling faster than what's reported on the dash.


No.

If you're configured for a 21 inch wheel but have a 19 inch wheel, then your car thinks that the outside circumference of the tire is greater than it actually is. So your car thinks your vehicle is traveling further per revolution than it actually is.


Yeah. Holy Brainfart Batman! Don't know what the hell I was doing in that one. Both the speedometer will report a higher speed than you're actually traveling *and* the ground speed will be lower than that reported on the speedometer. Cause that makes far more sense than what I wrote. Smiley: bah


Quote:
Smaller tires than configured = slower actual speed vs reported.


Which is funny because that's exactly what I was trying to say, but somehow turned myself around when writing it down. It's a common question raised on car mod sites when oversizing tires because there's a concern that you could be speeding while your speedometer reads that you're traveling the speed limit. The general consensus is that barring ridiculous total diameter changes (meaning something that can no longer fit in your wheel well), it should never create a large enough difference to be outside the margin of error when measuring speed externally anyway. And the concern is always with bigger tires resulting in lower reported mph than actual mph, so I have no clue how/why I wrote it backwards.


Point being that even if we assume that the total diameter of the tire he had was smaller than that the car was configured for (which isn't necessarily the case as I explained earlier), it could not possibly result in the speed Tesla reported him traveling (regardless of method) being greater than that which he reported seeing on his speedometer. So that whole bit (as you correctly pointed out) is BS.
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