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#27 Jan 24 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

/em recounts all the times the "only women's opinions matter on abortion" argument has been made on this forum.

I don't believe you.

I believe you believe yourself. But I don't believe you.

I must request proof of such accusations.
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#28 Jan 25 2013 at 5:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Near as I can remember, the only point people have made that "only women's opinions matter" is in the case of a woman who is pregnant and considering abortion for herself... not when it comes to legislating the legality of abortion.

In other words, "I have the final say of what happens to my own body."
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#29 Jan 25 2013 at 6:03 AM Rating: Decent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
"only women's opinions matter" is in the case of a woman who is pregnant and considering abortion for herself... not when it comes to legislating the legality of abortion.


Wouldn't those two be linked in at a very basic level that makes them impossible to separate though?

Someone who believes that all abortion is wrong and should be illegal is basically going to that woman who would be considering an abortion and saying "No, you cannot get one."

A woman who is saying "Your non-female opinion doesn't matter because this is my body." is going to that person who believes that all abortion is wrong and should be illegal and saying "Your opinion doesn't matter."
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#30 Jan 25 2013 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't those two be linked in at a very basic level that makes them impossible to separate though?


No.
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#31 Jan 25 2013 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
"only women's opinions matter" is in the case of a woman who is pregnant and considering abortion for herself... not when it comes to legislating the legality of abortion.


Wouldn't those two be linked in at a very basic level that makes them impossible to separate though?
Why do they need to be separated? A pregnant woman can chose to vote for abortion legalization, so can a man. His opinion matters as much as hers. The man doesn't get to vote on whether she aborts her baby or not.
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#32 Jan 25 2013 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
The man doesn't get to vote on whether she aborts her baby or not.


He does if he just voted to make it illegal for her to. That's what I mean at that "basic level". If only a woman's opinion matters on whether she gets the abortion, how can a man's opinion matter of whether or not it's even legal for her to do so? Sure, if the man votes yes on abortion legality, the woman still has a choice. But if the man votes no on abortion legality, that takes away her choice. There are more male congress critters than female.
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#33 Jan 25 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Near as I can remember, the only point people have made that "only women's opinions matter" is in the case of a woman who is pregnant and considering abortion for herself... not when it comes to legislating the legality of abortion.

Nah, in the various abortion threads over the years, there's always a few people saying "Haha, look at you men thinking you should even get to have an opinion on this..."

I don't remember any men saying it though (I suppose I wouldn't rule it out entirely).
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#34 Jan 25 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
Near as I can remember, the only point people have made that "only women's opinions matter" is in the case of a woman who is pregnant and considering abortion for herself... not when it comes to legislating the legality of abortion.

Nah, in the various abortion threads over the years, there's always a few people saying "Haha, look at you men thinking you should even get to have an opinion on this..."

I don't remember any men saying it though (I suppose I wouldn't rule it out entirely).

Oh, then those people be whack, yo
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#35 Jan 25 2013 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Elinda wrote:
The man doesn't get to vote on whether she aborts her baby or not.


He does if he just voted to make it illegal for her to. That's what I mean at that "basic level". If only a woman's opinion matters on whether she gets the abortion, how can a man's opinion matter of whether or not it's even legal for her to do so? Sure, if the man votes yes on abortion legality, the woman still has a choice. But if the man votes no on abortion legality, that takes away her choice. There are more male congress critters than female.

A man's opinion shouldn't matter in deciding about an individuals decision to have a baby or not. Another woman's shouldn't either.

The courts have decided to make it a legal issue though. As long as it is, we the people - man or woman, get to vote or elect politicians to vote for us to make laws that we agree with.

I get to vote my opinion on things that don't directly impact me all the time.

If, back in the mid 1800's only black people were allowed to have an opinion and/or vote about slavery in the US because only black people were slaves, we'd probably still have slaves.
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#36 Jan 25 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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If, back in the mid 1800's only black people were allowed to have an opinion and/or vote about slavery in the US because only black people were slaves, we'd probably still have slaves.

Really? Seems unlikely that black people were torn from the loving arms of slavery by well meaning crackers against their will.
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#37 Jan 25 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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If, back in the mid 1800's only black people were allowed to have an opinion and/or vote about slavery in the US because only black people were slaves, we'd probably still have slaves.


That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day.
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#38 Jan 25 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
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If, back in the mid 1800's only black people were allowed to have an opinion and/or vote about slavery in the US because only black people were slaves, we'd probably still have slaves.


That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day.

I can do better. Give me a bit - it's still morning here.
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#39 Jan 25 2013 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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So if she dies during child birth, does rape become murder?
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#40 Jan 25 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe aggravated manslaughter.
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#41 Jan 25 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
So if she dies during child birth, does rape become murder?

We can have mercy there: 3rd degree manslaughter, 3 months in jail and 5 years probation. As long as she doesn't get raped again during the probation period I'm sure the court will be lenient.
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#42 Jan 25 2013 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
So if she dies during child birth, does rape become murder?

No, but the baby can be put on trial for murder. Separate case.
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#43 Jan 25 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
So if she dies during child birth, does rape become murder?

No, but the baby can be put on trial for murder. Separate case.


Unless the baby is Stewie Griffin it would be charged with involuntary manslaughter.
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#44 Jan 25 2013 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
Near as I can remember, the only point people have made that "only women's opinions matter" is in the case of a woman who is pregnant and considering abortion for herself... not when it comes to legislating the legality of abortion.

Nah, in the various abortion threads over the years, there's always a few people saying "Haha, look at you men thinking you should even get to have an opinion on this..."

I don't remember any men saying it though (I suppose I wouldn't rule it out entirely).

I think that what you guys keep forgetting is that a woman's opinion is all that matters on all subjects.
#45 Jan 25 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gbaji must have a sweet rack.
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#46 Jan 25 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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TirithRR wrote:
He does if he just voted to make it illegal for her to. That's what I mean at that "basic level". If only a woman's opinion matters on whether she gets the abortion, how can a man's opinion matter of whether or not it's even legal for her to do so? Sure, if the man votes yes on abortion legality, the woman still has a choice. But if the man votes no on abortion legality, that takes away her choice. There are more male congress critters than female.


I seem to recall that the whole unfairness of a congress made up mostly of men passing legislation about abortion was brought up fairly front and center the last time we had an abortion thread. And I'm pretty sure it was more than just one or two people arguing that since it only affects women then men should not have any say in it at all (even legislatively). Said opinion was generally disagreed with by the board as a whole as being ridiculous (and frankly unworkable in any real legal system), but it is an opinion that crops up in this subject with sufficient frequency to make note of.


Also, mangina is a funny word.
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#47 Jan 25 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the "men shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on this" line is one that is trotted out when someone just gets fed up and frustrated. I think the amount of people who actually believe that are few and far between.

#48 Jan 26 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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Not to spoil the "lol GOP" party, but after the initial kerfuffle, Rep. Brown clarified that the intent of the bill is to strengthen punish of the rapist for forcing or coercing the victim to get an abortion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/24/new-mexico-abortion-bill_n_2541894.html
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UPDATE: 12:25 p.m. -- Brown said in a statement Thursday that she introduced the bill with the goal of punishing the person who commits incest or rape and then procures or facilitates an abortion to destroy the evidence of the crime.

“New Mexico needs to strengthen its laws to deter *** offenders,” said Brown. “By adding this law in New Mexico, we can help to protect women across our state.”
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#49 Jan 26 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Ya, that was already brought up previously.
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#50 Jan 26 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, she can say whatever she wants as she tries to backpedal out of the spotlight. The text of the law clearly states that procuring an abortion is tampering with evidence. It also includes coercion but does not specify that coercion must take place for the law to apply.

Now if she wants to amend it to clearly state that this law never holds the mother culpable, she should do just that.

Edited, Jan 26th 2013 11:29am by Jophiel
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#51 Jan 26 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Now if she wants to amend it to clearly state that this law never holds the mother culpable, she should do just that.


What if it is an older woman sexing up an under aged boy and then getting an abortion herself to destroy evidence Smiley: tinfoilhat

But ya, seems pretty clear that it was an attempt from the "No Abortions Ever" crowd to try and counter the "Well, what about rape?" exception crowd.
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