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A firearm question for you Lefties

#1 Jan 17 2013 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
10,177 posts
Gbaji wrote:
That's the most moronic thing you've said. How? It will only stop someone if they stop when the detector goes off. I'm reasonably certain that someone who's decided to shoot a bunch of people isn't going to stop because he set off a metal detector.


That makes no sense at all. I'm talking about only one thing: Whether removing the current restrictions on allowing faculty at school to be armed would reduce the likely fatality rate in the event of an shooting incident at the school? You're tossing in completely unrelated things which have no bearing on what I'm saying.

I'm not sure why you're fixated on this "one adult in a classroom" thing. So what? There are many adults in the school. And every single one of them is closer to the shooting than the police. And most of them will be closer than an armed guard. So everything else being the same, if some of them are armed, they will be able to decrease the number of people who die.

I never said this would prevent school shootings (let's not use the word 'stop' because it can have at least two very different meanings here). What I have said, repeatedly, is that it would reduce the statistical number of fatalities from school shootings.

Let's remember that armed guards at the school also wont prevent school shootings. And armed police just a few miles away wont prevent school shootings. And gun control, short of eliminating the 2nd amendment wont stop school shootings (and probably wont even then). A proposal does not have to be perfect to still be better than other proposals. Allowing faculty members in schools the option of bringing firearms to school does not cost us anything, but has a great potential to reduce the number of deaths when school shootings occur. This does not preclude other actions as well, but this one doesn't prevent those other ones either. We can tighten restrictions on background checks, we can do more to prevent people with mental problems from obtaining firearms, we can put more security in our schools, and put metal detectors in, and all sorts of other things. But allowing faculty to be armed still reduces the likely fatality rate from shootings in schools in all of those cases on top of whatever other benefits they have themselves.

Wait, wait, wait, wait wait just a minute. So security check points are good enough for international airports, government buildings and installations, but not good enough for a grade school? That's laughable.

You asked "how much quicker could the shooter have been stopped" not "how to prevent anyone from shooting". The quickest way to stop a shooter is at the door when the alarm goes off. If you want to prevent him with the ability to shoot, then you need to side with the weapon law enforcements. As long as the weapons exists, you can't do anything to prevent a person from shooting, only put out measures to hinder or deter them from doing it.

Gbaji wrote:

Yes. But an armed adult has a much greater chance of killing the shooter sooner than if he's unarmed. Thus, decreasing the number of people the shooter can kill before he's stopped. How the **** does this not occur to you?

He can't kill at infinite speed. There's always a time element involved. And everything else staying the same, the faster you can get armed opposition to the shooter, the fewer people will die.

So? Worst case is that the person has a gun and chickens out and hides instead of confronting the shooter. Which is precisely what they'd do if they weren't armed. Not seeing the problem here.


So? An adult or child who would have died if the person hadn't been armed. You're failing to grasp how the statement "everything else being the same" works. The same person who would stop to talk it through with the shooter while armed will presumably take the same course of action if not armed. Not seeing the point you're making here. Being armed at least gives the other person more options to stop the shooter. Being disarmed decreases his options. Again, everything else being the same, the shooter is more likely to kill fewer victims if he's faced with armed opposition than not.

But maybe before 2 dozen? What part of "fewer fatalities" is confusing you?

Read above. You're missing the point, which is that armed or not, that isn't a deterrent for a mass shooting. So, while the shooter is stopped sooner, people are still being killed. Once you realize that we don't live in Hollywood, you'll see that your 50 year old English teacher wont John Wayne him or herself into a better performance than a trained professional.

Gbaji wrote:
Except that the "stupid scenario" tends to happen more often than not. The shooter does not magically appear in the classroom. He tends to start near an entrance to the school, and shoots his way *to* a classroom. In the case of the newtown shooting, he went into the front office area first, shot the principle and a couple staff members, then went through the hallways of the school (presumably shooting at anyone in his way), until he got to the classroom he was targeting. Then he shot the teacher(s) in that classroom and their students.

Similarly, the Columbine shooting mostly occurred in the hallways, not in the classrooms themselves. They shot into classrooms, but did not just stay in one spot the whole time. The Virginia Tech shooter traveled between two different buildings, firing somewhat randomly at people he ran into in the halls and into classrooms as he passed them. In all of those cases, there were ample opportunities for an adult with a firearm to interfere with the shooting.

That's why I said if a person were serious about it. If the goal was to kill a specific person or a mass crowd, then s/he wouldn't be just running down the halls, but going into a specific spot. At that specific spot, any opposition will more than likely be dealt with armed or not. Having a gun doesn't prevent you from being shot and killed.

Gbaji wrote:
You're also forgetting that even if the shooter enters a single classroom and begins killing everyone there, there are other rooms, and other halls, and other members of the faculty. All of them well within distance to approach the shooter from behind while he's shooting folks in that one room. It's not like once he enters that room, the rest of the universe disappears. He goes into one room. Teacher down the hall hears the shooting. He runs to his office, gets his gun, runs to the classroom where the shooting is occurring, and kills the shooter. Everything else staying the same, he'll be able to do that far far faster than police will be able to arrive.

Except I said that the goal of the shooter isn't to avoid death, but to cause the most damage before being killed. The counter is trying to PREVENT the shootings from happening in the first place. While your solution helps to end a shooter on a rampage, it doesn't prevent the rampage. Since the proposed counter is to prevent the rampage, your solution is irrelevant.

Ok. But if the other adults are not armed, they can't do anything about the shooting. That's what you're missing. If the adults who arrive are armed, they can stop the shooting. If they are not, then what? They yell at him to stop from the doorway and get shot? Do you understand that the best way to stop him is if those other adults are armed. It took about 20 minutes for police to arrive at Sandyhook elementary. He did not stop shooting until they arrived on the scene. Are you seriously trying to argue that in 20 minutes not a single other adult faculty member could have gone into the classroom where he was shooting?

Of course they could have. But they couldn't stop him because he was armed and they were not. See how that works? If they had been armed, they could have shot him and stopped the shooting, and likely saved the lives of many children.

Read above. So, you believe that a teacher too terrified to physically attack a shooter when attack will gain the courage and skills to take out a shooter while possessing a weapon.

Gbaji wrote:
Great! But someone has to stop the shooter. I'm not opposed to a metal detector at all. That would give the faculty members who brought guns to school even more time to get them and stop the shooter. But again, everything else staying the same the response time of those armed faculty members will be faster than the police. If it takes the police 20 minutes after the metal detector goes off to arrive, and an armed faculty member 5 minutes, then that's 3/4ths less time the shooter has to kill people.

Yes. Which is why I said simply posting uniformed guards is of questionable value. They become obvious first targets. A shooter can make a plan to kill the one or two armed guards first, then know that everyone else is helpless. If he has no idea which of the 100 plus faculty members in the school may be armed, he can't make that kind of plan. That's why allowing those faculty members to be armed works.

Once again, unless you're giving children guns, adults will always be the target as they will be the ones to stop the shooting armed or not. Your solution is nice, but it doesn't prevent the mass shooting.

Gbaji wrote:
I never once said no one would have died or gotten hurt. I said the number of fatalities would be lower. So you're basically acknowledging that I'm right, but then deciding to pretend I really said something else? Kinda silly.

"Why? I'm not wrong. The absolute truth is that had even one faculty member at Sandyhook had a firearm available to them on campus, there would have been fewer dead kids, possibly even no dead kids.". Granted, you said the faculty had no chance, but to believe that the kids had a chance is delusional. If the adults were armed, he would have went to the kids first and let the adults come to him.

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 12:44am by Almalieque
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