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#577 Feb 14 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Default
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Do you understand that the communists supported and voted for Hitler? They did this because while they viewed the ***** as rivals to their own socialist agenda, both groups were socialist. So they set aside their differences out of a sense of solidarity. Didn't end out well for the communists, but that was what they did and why they did it.
Yeah...cite, please.


I'm sure you'll dismiss it out of hand, but there's this one

Quote:
It is a matter of record that in the German election of 1933, the Communist Party was ordered by its leaders to vote for the *****—with the explanation that they could later fight the ***** for power, but first they had to help destroy their common enemy: capitalism and its parliamentary form of government.


It's the easiest source to find that states this directly, most of them kinda dance around the issue and you kinda have to read behind the lines to see that the same supporters tended to bounce around between the same couple parties (communist and national socialist) during the late 20s and early 30s.

For a broader examination relevant to the topic at hand, we could also look at this site

It's an interesting read. I think the author uses socialism almost as a synonym for communism (where I think communism is a subset of socialism), but that's more of a labeling issue really.


Quote:
gbaji wrote:
You started with "No! They never worked together to prevent a free market from being adopted!" to "well, they voted together to defeat the free market advocates, but that's not the same as working with them"


Stop claiming I wrote something I clearly did not write, you @#%^.


I may have editorialized a bit, but that's the gist I got from what you wrote. You started with a firm "they never worked together" to acknowledging that they voted in support of Hitler (admittedly more out of opposition of a common enemy) but that this somehow didn't equate to working together. I don't see how that makes sense though, except for an exceptionally narrow definition of "working together". The Communist Party in Germany on several occasions in the early 30s choose sides with the ***** specifically to ensure that a non-socialist/conservative government could not be formed. They did this out of a belief that repeated collapses of governments and failed elections would ultimately lead to some form of upheaval and revolution. Their big failure was that it was Hitler who took advantage of those things when they happened and they got the short end of the stick.

Hitlers opposition to communists was less about their ideology and more about their threat to his own party's power (which itself is tricky if you don't understand that there were two broad branches of communists as well). Both were absolutely on the same "side" in terms of ideology. National Socialists shifted to the Communist party and vice versa as the fortunes of their leaders changed. Both were similarly aligned though.

Edited, Feb 14th 2013 5:26pm by gbaji
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#578 Feb 14 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Do you understand that the communists supported and voted for Hitler? They did this because while they viewed the ***** as rivals to their own socialist agenda, both groups were socialist. So they set aside their differences out of a sense of solidarity. Didn't end out well for the communists, but that was what they did and why they did it.
Yeah...cite, please.


I'm sure you'll dismiss it out of hand, but there's this one.
Yeah, I will. A cite from historical record or something of equal value - y'now, like a history book? Thanks for confirming that you adhere to soulless Randian philosophy though.

gbaji wrote:
For a broader examination relevant to the topic at hand, we could also look at this site
It's an interesting read. I think the author uses socialism almost as a synonym for communism (where I think communism is a subset of socialism), but that's more of a labeling issue really.
Right-wing think tanks are not "impartial". Did you think I would not notice the Liberty Fund logo?Smiley: laugh


Bijou wrote:
Stop claiming I wrote something I clearly did not write, you @#%^.


gbaji wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You started with "No! They never worked together to prevent a free market from being adopted!" to "well, they voted together to defeat the free market advocates, but that's not the same as working with them"


I may have editorialized a bit,
No, you used quotation marks, which in English usage denotes a...wait for it...quotation of what someone wrote or said. I did not in any way shape or form make any comment on any free market at all.


And, for the record, a fasces was a symbol of authority, not group hugs.

You really are bought and sold aren't you?


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#579 Feb 14 2013 at 9:06 PM Rating: Default
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Yeah, I will. A cite from historical record or something of equal value - y'now, like a history book? Thanks for confirming that you adhere to soulless Randian philosophy though.


Well, gee. I don't happen to have a history book handy at the moment (and history books are just as likely to have bias, so I'm not sure why you'd think it's more legitimate, but whatever). Here's a take on things though. It glosses over a number of things, and this is one of those sources that dances around a bit with it (so you have to read between the lines), but there's sufficient information there to reasonably conclude that the Communist and National Socialist parties were on the same side more or less (right up until Hitler double crossed them of course). The fact that Hitlers followers started shifting from his party to the Communist party when they lost some seats is somewhat telling as well. It shows that they felt they had more in common with communism than the other more conservative parties.

Quote:
gbaji wrote:
For a broader examination relevant to the topic at hand, we could also look at this site
It's an interesting read. I think the author uses socialism almost as a synonym for communism (where I think communism is a subset of socialism), but that's more of a labeling issue really.
Right-wing think tanks are not "impartial". Did you think I would not notice the Liberty Fund logo?Smiley: laugh


That's circular. What kind of think tanks do you think would discuss this in the first place? Any one that did would be labeled by you a "right wing think tank". So what's the point? You're basically arguing that any source you disagree with can't be used as a source. But then you demand that I provide a cite from a source. You'll only accept sources that agree with you, right?

Quote:
And, for the record, a fasces was a symbol of authority, not group hugs.


Yes, but it symbolized everyone working together to common cause. Strength through unity. That's certainly how the symbol has been used in modern times, and if we're talking about 20th century fascism, that is the most appropriate interpretation to use.
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#580 Feb 14 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Default
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Oh. And I'm sure you'll dismiss this one as well. But I think it's also a good read.
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#581 Feb 14 2013 at 9:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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#582 Feb 15 2013 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Oh. And I'm sure you'll dismiss this one as well. But I think it's also a good read.
Yeah, Ayn Rand again.Smiley: dubious

Tell you what. You read the two books I listed earlier and get back to me.

gbaji wrote:
You'll only accept sources that agree with you, right?
No, I accept sources that use original source material. You know that when Shirer wrote Rise and Fall of the Third Reich he had access to all the **** archives, right? That is citable material.

Edited, Feb 15th 2013 12:38am by Bijou
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#583 Feb 15 2013 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Oh. And I'm sure you'll dismiss this one as well. But I think it's also a good read.
It reads a bit like one of your post. Lot's of 'imagining' going on, though less verbose.

Since there is no author identified, it could just as well be your work.

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#584 Feb 15 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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Strength through unity.

Would you say it meant "one nation, under god, indivisible"?

Edited, Feb 15th 2013 8:31am by Smasharoo
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#585 Feb 15 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh. And I'm sure you'll dismiss this one as well. But I think it's also a good read.

Well you know what they say about Objectivism and Dr Seuss...one body of work is made up entirely of overly simplistic stories written for children and the other body of work mostly rhymes.

Try the veal.

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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#586 Feb 15 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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#587 Feb 15 2013 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Do you understand that the communists supported and voted for Hitler? They did this because while they viewed the ***** as rivals to their own socialist agenda, both groups were socialist. So they set aside their differences out of a sense of solidarity. Didn't end out well for the communists, but that was what they did and why they did it.
Yeah...cite, please.


I'm sure you'll dismiss it out of hand, but there's this one


I'd like to pull the trigger and vote this as best gbaji-ism of the week.
#588 Feb 15 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Guenny wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Do you understand that the communists supported and voted for Hitler? They did this because while they viewed the ***** as rivals to their own socialist agenda, both groups were socialist. So they set aside their differences out of a sense of solidarity. Didn't end out well for the communists, but that was what they did and why they did it.
Yeah...cite, please.


I'm sure you'll dismiss it out of hand, but there's this one


I'd like to pull the trigger and vote this as best gbaji-ism of the week.


But you'll have to RELOAD a couple times to make it the best gbaji-ism ever.
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#589 Feb 15 2013 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

I'm sure you'll dismiss it out of hand, but there's this one


Smiley: oyvey

Now why would we dismiss a "citation" from the Ayn Rand lexicon? I mean, other than the fact it has no credibility for the question at hand?

Edited, Feb 15th 2013 3:56pm by Olorinus
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