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A firearm question for you LeftiesFollow

#52 Dec 24 2012 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
I hear what you ae saying, Time. But for the Portland shooter and the CT kid, death was the intended product, both others and theirs'. Gasoline, at least in the case of Sandy Hook, would have been quite effective.

However, to get distracted by the methodology of one particular accelerant, gasoline, is to get distracted from the larger picture of people, intent on killing others, can and will find a way to do so with the least resistance and the greatest impact from their standpoint. Because the mentally ill are allowed to roam freely, if guns are not available, then knives are readily at hand. Consider China and the 22 people injured there. Just because no one was killed at this specific occurance doesn't negate the lethality and deadlinesss of knives. Again, crazy people are not necessarily stupid people. If one form of action isn't available, is there anyone here who disputes that they will find another way to carry out the instructions of the person in their head to kill as many as they can?

Totem


Typically schools have procedures for fires, and they minimize the casualties to such a degree that the likely-hood of death is low. China's gun death rate is a quarter of ours. All of the ex-Axis powers all have even lower gun death rates. That points to a problem.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 6:51pm by Timelordwho
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#53 Dec 24 2012 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
No, not even a tactical shotgun is required. Merely a hacksaw and a pocket full of double aught on a single shot shotgun will do more damage more quickly than any handgun or semi-automatic rifle in the hands of the typical owner. A cut down shotgun needs only be pointed in the general-- and very general at that --direction of whoever is there and it'll be almost certain to hit and kill or grieviously injure that person(s) within the circular pattern approximately 10 feet wide at a distance of 15 feet.

And a single shot can be emptied and loaded in 2 seconds easily with little practice. And there are no confusing stovepipes or magazines to deal with.

See?

And here everybody is talking about those evil assault weapons. Basically, these psychos are pikers when it comes to wholesale killing. But hey, these are just for sport.

Totem


ARs have an incredible range and throughput advantage, severely limiting chance of retaliation while using them. And I mentioned a T-shotgun since you can much better approach those characteristics.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 6:57pm by Timelordwho
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#54 Dec 24 2012 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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"The road has no rules. It's a lawless wasteland of tar and those pressed against it. Better bring my gun" --Timelord mimicing me

^^^^This.^^^^

When it comes to defending myself and my loved ones, who else is there? The police? Maybe after 5 or 10 minutes perhaps if they aren't busy doing something elsewhere. The politicians intent on restricting my ability to defend myself and my loved ones? I don't expect they'll ever show up unless my name is Trayvon Martin, and even then it'll be long after the fact that I am already dead.

What is with this Progressive cultural fixation on helplessness?

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#55 Dec 24 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
"The road has no rules. It's a lawless wasteland of tar and those pressed against it. Better bring my gun" --Timelord mimicing me

^^^^This.^^^^

When it comes to defending myself and my loved ones, who else is there? The police? Maybe after 5 or 10 minutes perhaps if they aren't busy doing something elsewhere. The politicians intent on restricting my ability to defend myself and my loved ones? I don't expect they'll ever show up unless my name is Trayvon Martin, and even then it'll be long after the fact that I am already dead.

What is with this Progressive cultural fixation on helplessness?

Totem


Perhaps there are other solutions if you expect to be waylaid on the roads. And even if you were, I specifically did not say you wouldn't be allowed to have some sort of firearm.

If you expect to be waylaid by 30+ goons packing heavy weapons, and feel the need to arm yourself appropriately, I'd imagine you've made more than a few poor life choices before it got to this point, and I doubt that the minutiae of the law are particularly relevant to your specific situation.
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#56 Dec 24 2012 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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"ARs have an incredible range..." --Timelord
The range just exponentially increases the chances of a miss.

"...throughput..." --Timelord
Throughput just means those wild misses will have the gunner running out of ammuition even sooner.

Truthfully, if you had the presence of mind when faced with a person holding a gun-- let's say it is a handgun of any type --it is easy to make them miss you. No, I have not been in this situation, before you even ask. But that does not negate the reality that 9 out of 10 people are righthanded, so as they shoot at you, you rapidly move to your left toward them (or away if there is an avenue of escape). The pulling of the trigger and the general long extension of the shooter's arm makes for a wobbly stance and a leftward gunline.

Don't believe me? Just go to your local gun range and try to hit a non-moving paper target at a distance of 10 feet. You'll likely find out of the 6 rounds in a wheel gun or 15 rounds in a stacked magazine none will hit the target with the wheel gun and maybe 1 will graze the left shoulder of the target from the automatic handgun. And this is while you have a chance to set yourself, no pressure, no distractions, no accelerated heart rate, no amped up adrenaline, no screaming bystanders, and certainly no one aimng a gun back at you and shooting in return.

Guns of the nature that are in vogue for crazies simply aren't efficient people killers. In a closed classroom or a tightly packed movie theater? Sure, the totalnumbers look--and are --bad, but for every round expended, many are pure clean misses.

Again, this fixation on this type of firearm is misguided at best, but why should that stop a good social cause that's boiling over, right?

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#57 Dec 24 2012 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Not so, Time. Each person cooped up in their project housing unit waiting for dawn to break so they can go outside after the criminals have finally gone to bed are living under tyranny. These people don't have much say in where they live. Its' where they can afford to be. All of which is not to say they aren't already armed to the teeth, but by criminalizing them for owning a weapon like they do in DC, Chicago, and NY, you only victimize them further.

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#58Totem, Posted: Dec 24 2012 at 6:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And on the happy thought of Jo-emote's kid safely snuggled in his bed dreaming of Santa bringing him all the gifts he's been hoping for, secure in the knowledge that dear ol' Dad won't let him anywhere near where those mean gangbangers live with their illegal guns, and that if it weren't for Christmas vacation, he'd be at home anyway since the teachers union strikes in Chicago would keep him safe from the psychos wandering the school hallways, I will bid each and every one of you good night and..
#59 Dec 24 2012 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't believe me? Just go to your local gun range and try to hit a non-moving paper target at a distance of 10 feet.


Yes, I've done this, and more specifically, done this with the weapon which was used in the CT shooting. With a much smaller target, and at a much greater range. At 30yd, however, none of the shots missed a ~4.5in radius target. I'm not even a stellar shot, firing in burst. The grouping would be much closer with single shot. Even chainfiring the whole clip it would be incredibly hard not to score a kill on a man sized target at that range. Even at much further (ie, the intended range) it is quite accurate.

Yes, handguns are much less accurate, that's the point.
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#60 Dec 24 2012 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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The thing that amazes me, as someone from gunless Europe, is how Totem and all others I see defending guns-for-all is how they seem to expect that they're going to end up having to have a shootout with some criminals or terrorists sooner or later. It seems kinda paranoid to me.
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#61 Dec 24 2012 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
Not so, Time. Each person cooped up in their project housing unit waiting for dawn to break so they can go outside after the criminals have finally gone to bed are living under tyranny. These people don't have much say in where they live. Its' where they can afford to be. All of which is not to say they aren't already armed to the teeth, but by criminalizing them for owning a weapon like they do in DC, Chicago, and NY, you only victimize them further.

Totem


You don't see these people saying if only there was a armed bystander that stray round wouldn't had went though their wall and killed their family member. Some of the largest gun turn in programs are done with in these districts with help from the community namely church groups aiding law enforcement. Also the law abiding citizens in the inner city know that if they were to return fire and injure or kill one of these criminals they would subjected to retaliation. So some of the more vocal gun control voices start in the inner cities but since shootings and open gang warfare there are so common it doesn't make national news and neither does the voices of the victims.



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#62 Dec 24 2012 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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#63 Dec 24 2012 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Way I look at it, the right was given when the norm wasn't capable of wiping out a city block. 1 Shot 1 kill. Muskets. They couldn't see today having ballbearings in shells, or high capacity assault weapons, semi automatic hand guns. Perhaps it is time to look at a revision to the right. Times have changed and some weapons aren't meant to be in the hands of people period.

I can own a shot gun here, I have 1 I take hunting, I also have a 22 that I take hunting, or shooting. But I can't own an assault rifle...and Canada has one of the lowest gun related crimes in the world.

We have the same movies, the same video games, the same music, the same TV shows, the same culture, yet we can't own assault rifles.

Time to change, the times have changed, let me know how a gun from 200 years ago compares to a gun from today.
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#64 Dec 24 2012 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
"I think the entire notion of there being a situation where the acquisition of lethal force is beyond scrutiny to be absolutely laughable." --cid

So the US Constitution is a document worthy of derision? Because as of right now, the 2nd Amendment is has codified exactly that-- the acquisition and ownership of objects that can under certain conditions dispense lethal force. But to judge from your answer, I'll go out on a limb and say that you believe it is a "living document" and suseceptable to revisions and adjustments that change with the cultural winds of the moment. Is that an accurate assessment of your position?

Totem

I seem to recall there being phrasing about a regulated militia in that document.

I also seem to recall there being some mechanism by which the contents of said document could be altered over the course of time.

So yes, I am going to go ahead and say that the Constitution is not some infallible document that we aren't allowed to scrutinize. To suggest otherwise would be exceedingly stupid. Are you stupid? Is that what you're trying to convey to me here?

The power to end another person's life is something that should not be taken lightly and to be perfectly frank the majority of the people in this country are not up to the task of shouldering that kind of responsibility.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 9:23pm by cidbahamut
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#65 Dec 24 2012 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Those gun control laws there haven't been too effective

That's true. Mainly because the guns come in from suburban Cook county anyway. We should probably do something about that.

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And I suspect right now they'd be willing to consider any option if it'd only give them their family member back, even to the extent of arming teachers if need be.

Or no one having the guns. Which I bet would have been their #1 choice, well ahead of "Teacher shoot-outs in the classroom".

That was some of the worst and ham-handed appeal-to-emotion "debating" I've seen in ages. Nice to see you were so flustered by me though to give it a shot. Here's an emote for you: Smiley: smile

cidbahamut wrote:
So yes, I am going to go ahead and say that the Constitution is not some infallible document that we aren't allowed to scrutinize. To suggest otherwise would be exceedingly stupid. Are you stupid? Is that what you're trying to convey to me here?

Back in the 1700's, a bunch of people fought to give us the right to choose our own religion and faith... except to disagree that some guys from 200 years ago were anything but infallible and to fail to treat their word as anything but Holy Writ is to be undeserving of being an American.

I'm sure those people would be proud.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 9:24pm by Jophiel
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#66 Dec 24 2012 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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As a far left leaning social liberal, I have absolutely no issue with gun ownership. My brother leans as far left as me and owns a pistol. We are a hunting family as well and I have a freezer full of delicious venison (although the meat this year is from bow season, not gun). I have no problem with pistols, rifles, or shotguns (certain barrel lengths). It's when you get beyond the average gun into guns that could be categorized as military grade or guns that would only realistically be used on a tank or elephant that I start to question your need.

Qualifying this post, I think that everyone should be required to undergo at the very least, a psychological evaluation and also a class that meets at least three to five times for education prior to being allowed to own a gun. I think that should be a minimum requirement with potential stronger requirements prior to initial ownership. I also think that there should be much stricter requirements than are currently in place (at least in Wisconsin) to get a concealed carry permit.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 9:36pm by Paskil
#67 Dec 24 2012 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
What is always puzzling to me is why the Left continues to infantilize the American public when it comes to weapons. The dichotomy in thinking that a 10 round magazine is somehow safer than a 30 round magazine just demonstrates two things: A fundamental lack of understanding about weaponry and the hypocrisy of purposefully undercutting safety in the name of safety.


Why ask questions to answers that you already know? More rounds = more damage. If the purpose of having a weapon is to protect yourself, then you only need a handful of rounds. Anything more than that, then you're more likely to be on the assault.

The slower the rounds fire, the more time allotted for the shooter to be stopped before more people are harmed.


Totem wrote:
Instead, we have loud voices who want to go straight to the worst possible outcome: The restriction of the very freedoms outlined in our Constitution, our 2nd Amendment.


Key word, amendment.

Totem wrote:
Over 32,000 people died in auto accidents, yet we don't put but the very minimal restrictions on their use. And before you say it, yes, to do so more strictly would impinge on the rights of people everywhere to travel and congregate, two other rights our Constitution guarantees. Yet guns seem to into fall into this special catagory of rights which can be and should be restricted by reason of their limited purpose: self defense. Never mind that it is merely a tool, an inert object which doesn't operate or move until someone wills it into their hand and pulls the trigger. Empty of the cartiridges it can contain, it becomes an inefficient hammer. Or a paperweight.


The functions of vehicles, and like devices that result in death, heavily outweigh the intentional misuses for harm. There is absolutely no purpose in firearms other than to kill.

Totem wrote:
Again, what is the fetish behind the infantilization of America where certain tools are considered too dangerous to be wielded by law abiding citizens? Wherein you are counted as being too weak minded or immature to handle a firearm? Perhaps I am phrasing it incorrectly. Let's try this: What is your fetish with helplessness?


You have this fallacy of an innate dichotomy where people are born good or evil and never change. Just because you're a law abiding citizen when you bought the fire arm, doesn't mean you are when you come home to your wife in the bed with another person or you lose your job, wife and kids and feel like you hit rock bottom in life.
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#68 Dec 24 2012 at 10:58 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
More rounds = more damage.


You mean "More Rounds = More Chances for Damage". It's not like firing a bunch of 9mm rounds is going to equal a .50 shell. You're going to have the same amount of damage per hit, just more chances for you to hit the target.
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#69 Dec 24 2012 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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What is always puzzling to me is why the Left continues to infantilize the American public when it comes to weapons. The dichotomy in thinking that a 10 round magazine is somehow safer than a 30 round magazine just demonstrates two things: A fundamental lack of understanding about weaponry and the hypocrisy of purposefully undercutting safety in the name of safety.

I don't know. You've had similar training to me, and you know a good time to return fire is when someone is reloading away from cover. I'd rather have more chances at that opportunity, knowing my 10 shots should plenty to put one crazy down since I'm not there to kill dozens of people.
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#70 Dec 24 2012 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
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The whole tenor of debate in America mystifies me. I don't care even slightly about the right to own a gun. I'd rather have the right to live in peace and good health, thank you. I don't understand America at all..
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#71 Dec 24 2012 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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The whole tenor of debate in America mystifies me. I don't care even slightly about the right to own a gun. I'd rather have the right to live in peace and good health, thank you. I don't understand America at all..

Too bad we own everything :(
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#72 Dec 25 2012 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
The whole tenor of debate in America mystifies me. I don't care even slightly about the right to own a gun. I'd rather have the right to live in peace and good health, thank you. I don't understand America at all..

Too bad we own everything :(
And China owns America...
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#73 Dec 25 2012 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
More rounds = more damage.


You mean "More Rounds = More Chances for Damage". It's not like firing a bunch of 9mm rounds is going to equal a .50 shell. You're going to have the same amount of damage per hit, just more chances for you to hit the target.


Yes. more chances for damage. I sit corrected.
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#74 Dec 25 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
I seem to recall there being phrasing about a regulated militia in that document.

That's where I always get stuck, as a non-US citizen. Surely the fact you now have actual Armed Forces negates the need for Militia. So, why again would your average Joe need military grade firearms?


The logic of "we need guns because I need to defend my family from other people with guns" boggles the mind.
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#75 Dec 25 2012 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
I seem to recall there being phrasing about a regulated militia in that document.

That's where I always get stuck, as a non-US citizen. Surely the fact you now have actual Armed Forces negates the need for Militia. So, why again would your average Joe need military grade firearms?
Nonono, Obama could promote himself to dictator any minute and then the army will serve him and the guns people have in their homes will be needed for the militia so they can fight back against the dark lord.
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#76 Dec 25 2012 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Obama ... the dark lord.

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#77 Dec 25 2012 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
dark lord.


Racist.
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#78 Dec 25 2012 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
dark lord.


Racist.
You just wait till Obama starts wearing some ridiculous gothic armor and wielding a giant mace. It's going to happen any day now I tell you.
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#79 Dec 25 2012 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
I seem to recall there being phrasing about a regulated militia in that document.

That's where I always get stuck, as a non-US citizen. Surely the fact you now have actual Armed Forces negates the need for Militia. So, why again would your average Joe need military grade firearms?
Nonono, Obama could promote himself to dictator any minute and then the army will serve him and the guns people have in their homes will be needed for the militia so they can fight back against the dark lord.

To be fair that is how it actually goes down in a lot of countries. It's part of why I don't support a wholesale ban on firearms, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing the fact that the vast majority of people in this nation have no need for firearms and/or should not be trusted with firearms.
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#80 Dec 25 2012 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
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Nonono, Obama could promote himself to dictator any minute and then the army will serve him and the guns people have in their homes will be needed for the militia so they can fight back against the dark lord.
To be fair that is how it actually goes down in a lot of countries.
Not in first world countries and if you honestly think the chance of that happening in America is at all realistic you're just **** stupid.

Edited, Dec 26th 2012 2:38am by Aethien
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#81 Dec 25 2012 at 8:16 PM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Quote:
Nonono, Obama could promote himself to dictator any minute and then the army will serve him and the guns people have in their homes will be needed for the militia so they can fight back against the dark lord.
To be fair that is how it actually goes down in a lot of countries.
Not in first world countries and if you honestly think the chance of that happening in America is at all realistic you're just **** stupid.

Edited, Dec 26th 2012 2:38am by Aethien


Ditto.. Look at much problem he's having with the "fiscal cliff", you think not having guns would change that? Besides, that contradicts the "any item is a weapon" counter.
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#82 Dec 25 2012 at 11:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Totem wrote:
So the US Constitution is a document worthy of derision? Because as of right now, the 2nd Amendment is has codified exactly that-- the acquisition and ownership of objects that can under certain conditions dispense lethal force. But to judge from your answer, I'll go out on a limb and say that you believe it is a "living document" and suseceptable to revisions and adjustments that change with the cultural winds of the moment. Is that an accurate assessment of your position?


The 2nd Amendment starts "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...". It was written at a time when a Militia was more than a laughable way to secure a state. That no longer being the case, private ownership of guns should be regulated.

I'm fine with handgun's for defense. Handguns, Rifles, & Shotguns for hunting. I think all gun owners need to pass a safety test (including a mental health screening), get a license, & be retested every 5-10 tears in order to maintain ownership of said guns. I think one stipulation of owning a gun should be a check to ensure proper storage of the gun(s), I don't think its ok that 6 states don't even have laws on the books regarding mental health & gun ownership. I REALLY don't think its ok that 23 States (plus Washington, D.C.) have submitted fewer than 100 mental health records to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System since it was created in 1999. Outside of a gun range, I'm really not ok with high capacity clips as all they do, outside of a gun range, is allow for more people to be killed in a shorter amount of time.

While I don't think anyone on either side of this debate is for mass shootings, as I said in another thread, things like Sandy Hook, Aurora, & Columbine are what we as Americans exchange for our right to own guns. The big difference between the two sides though, is that one wants to make it harder for things like Mass shootings to happen while the otherside seems to be ok with this exchange.

I think the more important question, Totem, is what you would do if you had the power in order to try & avoid another Sandy Hook?

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#83 Dec 28 2012 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
Is there any situation or circumstance where you unequivocally would agree that the private ownership, sale, or use of a firearm is warranted?

I'm not sure if 'warranted' is the right word. We are basically a free country. If you want to own a gun to play with go for it.

If your gun is stolen and used for bad things (ie when your right to own a gun, infringes on someone else's rights not to suffer a hole in their chest), you should be held accountable.

If a community doesn't want guns around their kids, they also have that right to disallow guns in schools, or libraries or whatever public buildings they want - just like smoking.

If a community wants to arm their teachers, kids, bus drivers and PTA with guns they can do that too.

So why have gun laws/regulations?

1. 'Gun' needs to be well defined and separated out from armament.
2. People need a minimum level of understanding of how a gun works and the responsibilities they take on when they become a gun owner.

Personally, I see no need to have guns. More guns = more people shot - it's that simple. I enjoy plastering trees with my paint ball marker from time to time. When the crazed killer shows up at my door to steal my things and rape my man, I'll do the same - or I'll hit um with a frying pan.

I'd like to see simple, hand gun/shot guns become the weapon of choice for the paranoid masses that feel like they need a bullet to protect themselves and the more complex automatics and semi automatics basically become redefined as something more than a 'gun' and regulated as WMD's, or maybe as Weapons of Moderate Destruction.

I'd really like to see the gun show loophole in the current law closed up. It's pathetic and one of the little things that shames me as an american.



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#84 Dec 28 2012 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
If your gun is stolen and used for bad things (ie when your right to own a gun, infringes on someone else's rights not to suffer a hole in their chest), you should be held accountable.


Really? Accountable how? Like it was you who did the 'bad' thing, accountable? Do any other laws hold you accountable for what criminals do with your stolen property? (Serious question, I am too lazy to even bother looking that up because it's such a stupid concept).

Gun owners shouldn't be held accountable for what criminals may or may not do with their stolen weapons. I just think the guns in circulation need to be better tracked and the individual gun's destructive power limited. I have no problems with something like a stricter ammunition limit and better, more encompassing gun registration regulations.
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#85 Dec 28 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Elinda wrote:
If your gun is stolen and used for bad things (ie when your right to own a gun, infringes on someone else's rights not to suffer a hole in their chest), you should be held accountable.


Do any other laws hold you accountable for what criminals do with your stolen property? (Serious question, I am too lazy to even bother looking that up because it's such a stupid concept).


I'm under the assumption that Elinda is advocating codified specifications for gun storage. Presumably, if said restrictions were violated, and the gun was thereby stolen and used in a crime, then the owner would be guilty of some form of negligence, I think.
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#86 Dec 28 2012 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Elinda wrote:
If your gun is stolen and used for bad things (ie when your right to own a gun, infringes on someone else's rights not to suffer a hole in their chest), you should be held accountable.


Do any other laws hold you accountable for what criminals do with your stolen property? (Serious question, I am too lazy to even bother looking that up because it's such a stupid concept).


I'm under the assumption that Elinda is advocating codified specifications for gun storage. Presumably, if said restrictions were violated, and the gun was thereby stolen and used in a crime, then the owner would be guilty of some form of negligence, I think.


I see what Elinda meant now, but it still punishes a victim of a crime. The person is being punished for being the victim of theft. Sure, the crime committed after the theft may have been worse, but the original crime still had a victim. It was a poorly thought out statement, don't punish people for being stolen from, punish ALL people who fail to keep up with a regulated safety standard (which should be well defined in both what the standard of safety is, and how it should be proven). The punishment being a fine or something similar, like driving a car without proof of insurance. This would mean that even people who were stolen from, and whose weapons were used in possible crimes, would not necessarily be punished if they met these defined standards. And people who were not stolen from, but was discovered they didn't meet the standards, would be.

Edited, Dec 28th 2012 6:22pm by TirithRR
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#87 Dec 28 2012 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
If the theft is reported & found to be genuine, with proper storage regulations followed, then it'll be hard to find a gun owner's who's weapon was stolen negligent.

If your child gets into your guns & shoots someone, well then I doubt it was properly stored. The lady whom bought the guns for the fire fighter killer (or whom had them stolen from her car) is negligent in either case.
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#88 Dec 28 2012 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
The lady who, not whom.

Whom denotes an object.


Well now you are just confusing people, cause women are objects, right?
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#93 Dec 29 2012 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Elinda wrote:
If your gun is stolen and used for bad things (ie when your right to own a gun, infringes on someone else's rights not to suffer a hole in their chest), you should be held accountable.


Do any other laws hold you accountable for what criminals do with your stolen property? (Serious question, I am too lazy to even bother looking that up because it's such a stupid concept).


I'm under the assumption that Elinda is advocating codified specifications for gun storage. Presumably, if said restrictions were violated, and the gun was thereby stolen and used in a crime, then the owner would be guilty of some form of negligence, I think.


I see what Elinda meant now, but it still punishes a victim of a crime. The person is being punished for being the victim of theft. Sure, the crime committed after the theft may have been worse, but the original crime still had a victim. It was a poorly thought out statement, don't punish people for being stolen from, punish ALL people who fail to keep up with a regulated safety standard (which should be well defined in both what the standard of safety is, and how it should be proven). The punishment being a fine or something similar, like driving a car without proof of insurance. This would mean that even people who were stolen from, and whose weapons were used in possible crimes, would not necessarily be punished if they met these defined standards. And people who were not stolen from, but was discovered they didn't meet the standards, would be.

Edited, Dec 28th 2012 6:22pm by TirithRR

A suppose the difference is that owning a gun is a right under the 2nd amendment, at least that's how it's most commonly defined. You aren't given an explicit right within the constitution to own a chain saw or a lawnmower (Jophs wmd of choice), or a car. But more generally speaking, it's a matter of negligence. There's all sorts of ways you can get in trouble with the law for being irresponsible with your stuff. It just seems that the nature of guns, would make them high up on the responsibility list.
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#94 Dec 29 2012 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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#95 Dec 30 2012 at 7:10 AM Rating: Default
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http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/29/16241484-92-shorebirds-killed-by-vehicle-on-washington-state-beach-authorities-say?lite

Birds today, people tomorrow. Better fire up the rhetoric on banning assault vehicles based on esoteric criteria of such things as how much black plastic is on the car, if the vehicle has a high capacity interior designed to convey more than two people at once (after all, who needs more than two people in a car? Reasonable folk-- if they needed to drive at all --would make multiple trips in their vehicle), horsepower, and gear selections. No one needs more than two gears: Slow and Park. Anything more is an outrageously dangerous condition that kills more than 32,000 lives each year and countless birds.

I demand legislation condemning and outlawing the flagrent and profligate use of fast, high capacity vehicles whose only design and purpose is to kill! Ban 'em!

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#96 Dec 30 2012 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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#97 Dec 30 2012 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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Pretty sure there are more, and better enforced, regulations on vehicles than guns in the States. In order to legally operate my vehicle I have to renew vehicle registration every year, renew my operating license every four years at which time I prove that I can safely operate it, and carry insurance on the vehicle to cover my liability in case it's involved in an accident. Maybe we should bring gun laws up to the level of vehicle laws?
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#98 Dec 30 2012 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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Many locales already have some sort of legislation against driving on beaches. Totem you should start a campaign to bring back Jarts.
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#99 Dec 30 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, in a more serious tone, if it were up to me to reduce the opportunity for Sandy Hooks to occur, I would begin with mental health. Crazy people are the ones responsible for these travesties and should be identified early and... neutralized. How so, you may ask? Well, certainly not in the manner they are today where a doctor prescribes a **** of drugs and send them on their merry way with no wayto ensure they take their meds or are a larger risk to the general population at large.

We have an assortment of methods at our disposal: institutionalization, forced medication, lobotomies, electric shock therapy, Nurse Rachette, and thousands of people whose job title ends with the suffix ____-ologist/trist.

There has been a lowering of standards when it comes to defining crazy people. Allow me to highlight just one which is likely to draw a response from this board: Transgendered people. Yep, they're crazy as a loon, but the trend is to accept them as mentally healthy within a broader definition of what is "normal."

Because to reduce the killing of people in groups you have to identify who is likely to go off the rails and commit such an act. And crazy doesn't necessarily mean stupid. And if the voices in their head tell them to wipe a bunch of people out, then they are going to find a way to do just that-- be that by firearm or, as evidenced by my previous post, a vehicle. Proof of that is seen here in Afghanistan. The people are largely crazy in general (after all, they are willfully Muslim and live in this sh1th0le) and have discovered that the AK-47 they own isn't very effective as a rule. So what is their weapon of choice against the Great Satan and His Coalition Cronies? The car laden with explosives. Again, crazy isn't necessarily stupid. And to achieve their goals they'll use whatever means are at their disposal and provides the biggest bang for their dinar or dollar in our case.

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#100 Dec 30 2012 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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I love Jarts! Nothings says summer like a warm July 4th evening after the fireworks than getting hopped up on Coca-Cola, cotton candy while throwing firecrackers with short fuses, laying lit metal wanded sparklers in dry grass next to the lawn mower's gas can, and deflecting your brother's Jart throw to make him miss the circle.

<big nostalgic sigh>

Kids are such babies today.

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#101 Dec 30 2012 at 7:49 AM Rating: Default
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Concerning regulations and laws governing vehicles, most infractions, if not all, with the exception of grand theft auto, are merely misdemeanors by-and-large. And in many states, including where I live, California, licenses are a veritable God-given human right as opposed to being a privilege bestowed upon the driver by the state for demonstrating competancy behind the wheel and an encyclopedic knowlwdge of the rules of the road.

I suppose we could provide the same cover for gun owners: no-fault insurance, minimal background checks, no requirement for English language skills or citizenship, and a willingness by the police to ignore a 10 round magazine being replaced by a 30 round clip as long as it only carries, say, 12 or 13 rounds inside. You know, just like the posted speed limit signs are only recommended speeds up to about 5 mph over the posted limit.

Totem

Edited, Dec 30th 2012 8:51am by Totem
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