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A firearm question for you LeftiesFollow

#1 Dec 24 2012 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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Is there any situation or circumstance where you unequivocally would agree that the private ownership, sale, or use of a firearm is warranted? Either a specific or general condition where you'd unconditionally support an unassailable ownership, use, or sale of a firearm and would do so to the point of writing it in explicit and specific language into the US Constitution?

It probably has been discussed endlessly in a different thread, but with the whole CT school shooting I am guessing this is the new and latest cause d'jour of the Left-- to which my thinking is that there can be no compromise on this issue. Based on your (the Left's) track record, any compromise just lets the camel's nose under the tent to be soon followed by the rest of the smelly animal. And to the extent that *** marriage, legalized drug use, and every other social/cultural issue has been used as a template for change, this particular issue now can actually affect me and mine in that if enacted my ability to defend myself and those I love is impacted, unlike those other political footballs which are largely philosophical/religious questions.

Based on this set of assumptions, is there any room for compromise if I were willing to seriously talk about gun control (and I had the sole power to enact legislation to make it so)? Is there a point at which you would unconditionally recognise my right to own, sell, and use a firearm in exchange for specific conditions in return?

Feel free to imagine you could make this so for argument's sake and if necessary, list specific weapon types, caliber, magazine capacity, and, what the heck, color, since black plastic seems to make you guys irate.

I am listening.

Totem

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 3:13pm by Totem
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#2 Dec 24 2012 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
Is there any situation or circumstance where you unequivocally would agree that the private ownership, sale, or use of a firearm is warranted? Either a specific or general condition where you'd unconditionally support an unassailable ownership, use, or sale of a firearm and would do so to the point of writing it in explicit and specific language into the US Constitution?

I think the entire notion of there being a situation where the acquisition of lethal force is beyond scrutiny to be absolutely laughable.
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#3 Dec 24 2012 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zombie Apocalypse, duh.
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#4 Dec 24 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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So I take it that is a "No"?

I kinda figgured as much. Partisanship is truly dead.
:(

Totem
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#5 Dec 24 2012 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Well, with the Left pretty much doing a good turn at acting as Z's, I suppose it's open season then.
/shrug
Cool.

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#6 Dec 24 2012 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hunting rifles and shotguns plus handguns I have zero problem with. Guns like assault rifles and smg's are fine to own with special permits plus inspections to make sure you are storing your weapons in a gun safe along with the ammo. Not completely sure what it takes to get a special permit and what all it takes to keep it current or if it is a lifelong thing but mental exams plus regular gun safety classes should be something that is absolutely mandatory for special permits. Regular gun owners should have to take gun safety classes every couple of years also due to the disturbingly high number accidents that happen with firearms.
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#7 Dec 24 2012 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Is there any situation or circumstance where you unequivocally would agree that the private ownership, sale, or use of a firearm is warranted? Either a specific or general condition where you'd unconditionally support an unassailable ownership, use, or sale of a firearm and would do so to the point of writing it in explicit and specific language into the US Constitution?

I would like to see a legislative list of what guns ARE allowed rather than trying to play the game of disallowing varieties and having manufactures play with degrees to slide under the wire. I'm not about to try to compose such a list myself for various reasons. Given the changing nature of technology, I think trying to codify it Constitutionally would be foolish.
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#8 Dec 24 2012 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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And you'd be fine with setting that in verbal stone, C? Never to be challenged or infringed upon? So for those various classes and exams you'd allow in perpetuity ownership of handguns, rifles, and shotguns of all calibers? Wow, I am actually surprised. Truely!

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#9 Dec 24 2012 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Well, with the Left pretty much doing a good turn at acting as Z's, I suppose it's open season then.

Fancy that you didn't get a torrent of responses on Christmas Eve.

Given that you have zero power or ability to make things happen, I'm not too worried about trying to draw up pseudo-legislation for ya.
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#10 Dec 24 2012 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno what's going on here.
All "lefties" are against all private gun ownership?
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#11 Dec 24 2012 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently.
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#12 Dec 24 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like to see liscenses, with a limit put on the number of guns a person can own, reliscencing every 3-5 years, (though I'm not against allowances being made for non-functional collectors pieces), a limit on how much ammo a person can buy in a given period of time, restrictions put on magazine/clip capacity, and promotion of less lethal ammo as a self protection alternative. I'd also like to see laws against body armor for non military/law enforcement/security.
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#13 Dec 24 2012 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Assuming you can afford taking the medical exams and tests, not to mention pass both. Also it should be noted that the owners of guns that require special permits will have regular inspections of how they store their guns and ammo along with said guns present at inspection, with mess-ups theoretically costing them their licenses plus any special permit guns and ammo for said guns if they fail.

I would like for hunting rifles, shotguns and regular handguns to require said safety storage and inspections but I am willing to allow that to slide.
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#14 Dec 24 2012 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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But that is the trouble, Jo. The Right sees a reluctance to codify the right to ownership as a sneaky way to later neuter gun owners at a politically expedient time-- such as now after the CT shooting. And the skyrocketing gun sales underline this. I can't help but think that unlike other social issues, if it were placed into the Constitution a specific set of constructs wherein guns were obtainable and legally guaranteed, then compromise could be reached. Unfortunately, until such a place is reached, gun owners are going to treat this with the utmost suspicion as political opportunism or at worst, cynicism.

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#15 Dec 24 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
The Right sees a reluctance to codify the right to ownership as a sneaky way to later neuter gun owners at a politically expedient time

Tough shit. Maybe they should work for stronger laws themselves so there's less CT shootings to use as justification to take their precious little *****-replacements away.
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#16 Dec 24 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
And the skyrocketing gun sales underline this.


That the NRA and Gun Manufacturers' promote unfounded fear in their customers to boost sales and make money?
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#17 Dec 24 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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That the NRA and Gun Manufacturers' promote unfounded fear in their customers to boost sales and make money?

Exactly. When you're being willing led by the balls by organizations whose very power and justification relies on "they're gonna take our guns!!", you're not interested in sane compromise anyway and will use any excuse to avoid it.

Witness the GOP leaders who stayed silent on CT until the NRA finally spoke first, essentially telling them what their own party line would be.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 3:05pm by Jophiel
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#18 Dec 24 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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And that even in response to this there will be a fairly large number of snarky answers which reinforces the perception that the Left-- yes, in general terms it is the Left, not the Right, who wants to restrict guns --will use this as a tool to further their agenda.

So really, it is just a simple proposition: Would you be willing to exchange some freedoms for a guaranteed right to some form of ownership, use, or sale of a firearm? I'd have to say that a healthy dose of skepticism is due when tests or exams are required, just for the sake of it allows for the stacking of the deck against any particular out-of-favor group.

Totem

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#19 Dec 24 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
And that even in response to this there will be a fairly large number of snarky answers

I'm sorry. We can't all say "An armed man in every classroom!" and drop the mic as our well considered solution.
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yes, in general terms it is the Left, not the Right, who wants to restrict guns

Well, no shit, Professor Politics Smiley: laugh

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 3:08pm by Jophiel
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#20 Dec 24 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not against gun ownership. There, I said it.

I don't see the need for private ownership of guns that were developed for military purposes (and please, let's not get into some absurd reductivist argument about muskets). Specifically, I'm talking about guns that were designed to fire more bullets faster than one would need for hunting, say.

My dad owned guns. He hunted. His hunting license was used, among other things, to conserve wild lands and wetlands. Conservation was our common ground.

People who argue for private ownership of what are commonly called assault weapons or military weapons need to explain why they need them, as far as I'm concerned.
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#21 Dec 24 2012 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not de facto against gun ownership either but if some dip wants to try and make it black and white, I'll pick "no guns" over "Murder some more children in the name of freedom" every single time.
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#22 Dec 24 2012 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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I vote democrat, and own guns. And the majority of my family are hunters who own various rifles and shotguns. Many of whom vote democrat and are pro-Union. Gun control is something that the Left seems pretty divided about.

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#23 Dec 24 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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What is always puzzling to me is why the Left continues to infantilize the American public when it comes to weapons. The dichotomy in thinking that a 10 round magazine is somehow safer than a 30 round magazine just demonstrates two things: A fundamental lack of understanding about weaponry and the hypocrisy of purposefully undercutting safety in the name of safety.

Why is there a fetish on the Left to turn lawabiding citizens into criminals when it comes to firearms?

Totem
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#24 Dec 24 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well yeah, if the option was "no guns" or "ak's for all" I would side with the no guns crowd. I just feel as though there is a healthy middle ground that people need to realize.

Totem wrote:
I'd have to say that a healthy dose of skepticism is due when tests or exams are required, just for the sake of it allows for the stacking of the deck against any particular out-of-favor group.


Then how do you suppose we keep weapons that are designed for killing other humans (smg's and assault rifles for example, extended clips for pistols are another) out of the hands of people who would go into a school and kill children or start a fire to kill the firefighters that respond?
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#25 Dec 24 2012 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
What is always puzzling to me is why the Left continues to infantilize the American public when it comes to weapons.

Probably because they're debating against such reasoned and mature arguments as "Why is there a fetish on the Left to turn lawabiding citizens into criminals when it comes to firearms?"
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#26 Dec 24 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Criminy wrote:
Well yeah, if the option was "no guns" or "ak's for all" I would side with the no guns crowd. I just feel as though there is a healthy middle ground that people need to realize.

But the NRA-beholden politicans have no interest in a "healthy middle ground". They believe that the more guns everyone has, the safer everyone is. Might as well start at the extremes and hope to reach a middle ground that way.
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