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Fired for Being Too AttractiveFollow

#1 Dec 22 2012 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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(CNN) -- Can a boss fire an employee he finds attractive because he and his wife, fairly or not, see her as a threat to their marriage?

Yes, the Iowa Supreme Court ruled Friday.

"The question we must answer is ... whether an employee who has not engaged in flirtatious conduct may be lawfully terminated simply because the boss views the employee as an irresistible attraction," Justice Edward M. Mansfield wrote for the all-male high court.

Such firings may not be fair, but they do not constitute unlawful discrimination under the Iowa Civil Rights Act, the decision read, siding with a lower court...

The case concerns her client's employment as a dental assistant. Nelson worked for James Knight in 1999 and stayed for more than 10 years at the Fort Dodge business.

Toward the end of her employment, Knight complained to Nelson her clothing was tight and "distracting," the decision read. She denied her clothes were inappropriate.

At one point, Knight told Nelson that "if she saw his pants bulging, she would know her clothing was too revealing," the decision read.

At another point, in response to an alleged comment Nelson made about the infrequency of her sex life, Knight responded: [T]hat's like having a Lamborghini in the garage and never driving it."

During the last six months of Nelson's employment, Nelson and Knight, both married with children, started sending text messages to each other outside of work. Neither objected to the texting.

Knight's wife, who was employed at the same dental office, found out about those messages in late 2009 and demanded he fire Nelson.

In early 2010, he did just that. In the presence of a pastor, Knight told Nelson she had become a "detriment" to his family and that for the sakes of both their families, they should no longer work together, the decision read. Knight gave Nelson one month's severance.

In a subsequent conversation between Knight and Nelson's husband, Knight said Nelson had done nothing wrong and that "she was the best dental assistant he ever had," the decision read.

Nelson filed a lawsuit, contending that Knight fired her because of her gender. She did not say he committed sexual harassment.

In response, Knight argued that Nelson was fired because of the "nature of their relationship and the perceived threat" to his marriage, not because of her gender. In fact, he said, Knight only employs women and replaced Nelson with another female employee.

A district court sided with Knight; Nelson appealed.


So...that's pretty weird. I figured gender discrimination would at least be upheld, as it's assumed this wouldn't have been an issue if she was a he. Thoughts?
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#2 Dec 22 2012 at 9:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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They worked together for ten years. He made some inappropriate remarks about her appearance. She never initiated or reciprocated any inappropriate behavior. He fired her because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to control himself.

It's *********

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#3 Dec 22 2012 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, he could control himself for 9 years but then during that 10th he lost control. Irresistible she was, I tell ya.
#4 Dec 22 2012 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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Well, apparently near the end there there was mutual text messaging... I imagine they were of a sexual nature, otherwise it wouldn't be something brought up.

Edit:
Also, I don't see it. Maybe if I were 20 years older...

Edited, Dec 23rd 2012 12:34am by TirithRR
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#5 Dec 22 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Excellent
I hope it makes it to the US Supreme Court. I can't wait to see how misogynistic Scalia can go.
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#6 Dec 22 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
I hope it makes it to the US Supreme Court. I can't wait to see how misogynistic Scalia can go.


I wonder what sort of evidence they'd bring to the table to prove she was too irresistible?
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#7 Dec 23 2012 at 1:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wonder what sort of evidence they'd bring to the table to prove she was too irresistible?


Husband bulge.
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#8 Dec 23 2012 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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On a more serious note:

Ignoring the whole "9 years to develop" thing, and some possibly inappropriate comments (which appear to not have been an issue if they started a text messaging relationship afterward), how would one handle something like this? If you hired someone, and the relationship between them and you ends up being unprofessional because of a sexual attraction, what route would you be able to take?

Let's take a step through these events in a different light, just to get an idea if this is ever an appropriate way for an employer to act.

Man hires a woman
Man develops an attraction for the woman and feels she's dressing inappropriately for work
Man approaches her about the way she dresses, she doesn't feel it's inappropriate and doesn't change
Feelings don't go away, relationship becomes increasingly inappropriate for a workplace (like with text messages).
Man decides to let the woman go with a one month severance.

I think it's easy to fault the employer for his behavior, but sexual attraction isn't always something you can turn on/off with a flip of a switch.
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#9 Dec 23 2012 at 7:32 AM Rating: Default
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I think it's easy to fault the employer for his behavior, but sexual attraction isn't always something you can turn on/off with a flip of a switch.

What do you mean? Homosexuals choose to be gay all of the time!Smiley: nod
#10 Dec 23 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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It's called not having a sexual attraction to someone other than to the person that you married. If you're married, you make the choice ahead of time to not even let those thoughts develop, especially with someone you see every day. Not only is it a 2012 decision that continues to vilify the mistress in an adulterous situation, it's more of the stupid myth that "Men can't control themselves around attractive women!" that is used as a defense for rape. It's a very slippery slope and I hope the US Supreme Court will decide that it's very unconstitutional to rule that an attractive woman is apparently incapable of working in an environment that's not a strip club.
#11 Dec 23 2012 at 9:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Also, I don't see it. Maybe if I were 20 years older...

Maybe she was uglier ten years ago and gets hotter by the year. He could have been nipping this in the bud before she reached the tipping point.
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#12 Dec 23 2012 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Well, apparently near the end there there was mutual text messaging... I imagine they were of a sexual nature, otherwise it wouldn't be something brought up.

Edit:
Also, I don't see it. Maybe if I were 20 years older...

Edited, Dec 23rd 2012 12:34am by TirithRR



According to another article I read the text messages were about their families. Now, granted, that could be anything from "I'll be late tomorrow, taking Timmy to the doctor" to "My wife doesn't understand me."

Regardless, the grownup way to handle that, if it's becoming a problem, is to control yourself. Stop texting, stop making sexually suggestive comments, get a frackin' grip.


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#13 Dec 23 2012 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Also, I don't see it. Maybe if I were 20 years older...

Maybe she was uglier ten years ago and gets hotter by the year. He could have been nipping this in the bud before she reached the tipping point.


Honestly we can only see her face in the report, maybe she's got a smoking hot body.
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#14 Dec 23 2012 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
I for one wonder how the hell medical scrubs can be "tight" and/or "revealing." They're the most sexless uniform ever made.

As a dental assistant, if she wasn't wearing medical scrubs... then yeah she was dressed inappropriately. Smiley: oyvey Maybe she was wearing halter tops and shorty shorts underneath them?
#15 Dec 23 2012 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, not all hygienists wear scrubs, but yeah, I'd imagine she wore some sort of uniform. Maybe he made the comments about her street clothes, who knows?
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#16 Dec 23 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Isn't he basically opening himself up to another future lawsuit with this statement:

Quote:
Knight only employs women and replaced Nelson with another female employee.


Couldn't a male apply for a job and take him to court for gender discrimination when he was not hired? I don't really understand how these lawsuits typically start and what is required regarding proving discrimination occurred. Or does it not work that way?
#17 Dec 23 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe he's got binders full of men.
#18 Dec 23 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
It seems to me the key part of the whole story is that the firing came shortly after the wife discovering the text relationship. It would appear the only reason she was fired was because the wife likely told the husband to fire her or lose the marriage.

Edited, Dec 23rd 2012 2:43pm by BrownDuck
#19 Dec 23 2012 at 6:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, seems like. And I don't know whether Iowa is an at-will state where employers can fire employees for any reason or for no reason with impunity as long as they don't cross the lines of discrimination; but potentially there's nothing illegal about the firing, as the court found.

Still stinks, though.
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#20 Dec 23 2012 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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A quick look on Wiki says Iowa is an "at-will" state.
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#21 Dec 23 2012 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I can see where a defense might not be able to prove discrimination. It was her actions and admittedly the reactions of the employer that caused the problem. If you're going for sexual discrimination you really have to prove that it's that the employer found her unfit for the job simply because she's a woman.

If the roles were reversed and a male employee was coming-on to his boss, the happily married mother of three. The boss, who recognizes a temptation she doesn't want to keep facing thought his behavior inappropriate and even detrimental to business so fired him. Would it still be a question of the employee being fired because he was too pretty?

Employers are really free to hire and fire at will as long as they discriminate against one of the groups covered under the law. Good looking people are not covered.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 5:57am by Elinda
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#22 Dec 24 2012 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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From what I read the only reason he ended up firing her was because his wife saw some texts on his phone, got all pissed, and demanded he get rid of her. While you can argue control all you want, the bottom line is his jealous wife got pissed and gave him an ultimatum. Which he acquiesed to in order to keep his family together.

Maybe if the insecure bitter wife would have given up the goods a little more regularly, he wouldn't be walking around work at full mast making inappropriate comments.
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#23 Dec 24 2012 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Guenny wrote:
It's called not having a sexual attraction to someone other than to the person that you married. If you're married, you make the choice ahead of time to not even let those thoughts develop, especially with someone you see every day.


I wouldn't agree you can just decide not to be attracted to people. I think the answer is to be committed to monogamy regardless, be honest with your partner, and don't act like an *****

I mean, I developed a little crush on someone at work. I told my partner. She asked "would you ever do anything about it" and I said "no," and that was the end of it. I still find my coworker attractive, still would never even mention it, let alone act on it, still isn't a problem. Finding someone attractive isn't a big deal. Just don't be a douche.

As for firing someone because you find them attractive/your wife tells you to? That's ridiculous.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 11:59am by Olorinus
#24 Dec 24 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It was her actions and admittedly the reactions of the employer that caused the problem.


What actions of hers?

And while I agree that it's difficult to just decide not to be attracted to someone, we all do exactly that all the time. We all have friends who are dating or married to people that make us go, "hmm". We just bound those people off-limits. It can be done. It's done all the time.
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#25 Dec 24 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Quote:
It was her actions and admittedly the reactions of the employer that caused the problem.


What actions of hers?

And while I agree that it's difficult to just decide not to be attracted to someone, we all do exactly that all the time. We all have friends who are dating or married to people that make us go, "hmm". We just bound those people off-limits. It can be done. It's done all the time.


Well, we have very little information on her. Maybe the boss went up to her out of the blue one day and said "LOL, you give me an erection, stop being so hot!". Or maybe he truly did feel she was dressing inappropriately for the office setting and asked her to tone it down which she didn't? Or somewhere in the middle. If he really did make out of line comments go after him for sexual harassment in the workplace.

The way I see it though, not being able to work with someone because you find them attractive, and in turn firing them, is really no different than not being able to work with someone for any number of personality conflicts and decided to get rid of them. Regardless of who the personality fault lies with.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 4:07pm by TirithRR
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#26 Dec 26 2012 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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atriclethingywhatever wrote:
At one point, Knight told Nelson that "if she saw his pants bulging, she would know her clothing was too revealing," the decision read.


Smiley: rolleyes

Also, for a thread about an attractive woman, there's a distinct lack of pictures here. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Dec 26th 2012 8:13am by someproteinguy
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