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#52 Dec 15 2012 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not buying the whole "mental illness". "Mental illness" could be anything. It could be that he was suffering from bulimia. I'm not going to degrade whatever his illness was , but at the same time, I'm not going to pardon his actions simply based on a broad statement of a "mental disorder". I heard that it was planned and I'm guessing that his mental illness did not prevent him from knowing good from bad in this scenario.

Who gives a fuck? He's dead. He won already. Judge all you want, or don't, doesn't matter. You and everyone else is completely powerless to do absolutely anything at all about this. Completely powerless. That's the beauty of fetishising violent revenge fantasies in a society, basically anyone can live the dream so long as they kill themselves in the end. This guy nailed it. He'll be incredibly famous, got the attention he clearly craved and will pay absolutely no cost, suffer no judgement from society. Just the way we sell it to the kids. He had a particular set of skills that apparently included shooting children in the face. That made him a nightmare for people like us.

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#53 Dec 15 2012 at 8:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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He'll be incredibly famous, got the attention he clearly craved and will pay absolutely no cost, suffer no judgement from society.


Well, unless you count being dead as a cost, like most people do Smiley: rolleyes
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#54 Dec 15 2012 at 8:29 AM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
I'm not buying the whole "mental illness". "Mental illness" could be anything. It could be that he was suffering from bulimia. I'm not going to degrade whatever his illness was , but at the same time, I'm not going to pardon his actions simply based on a broad statement of a "mental disorder". I heard that it was planned and I'm guessing that his mental illness did not prevent him from knowing good from bad in this scenario.

Who gives a fuck? He's dead. He won already. Judge all you want, or don't, doesn't matter. You and everyone else is completely powerless to do absolutely anything at all about this. Completely powerless. That's the beauty of fetishising violent revenge fantasies in a society, basically anyone can live the dream so long as they kill themselves in the end. This guy nailed it. He'll be incredibly famous, got the attention he clearly craved and will pay absolutely no cost, suffer no judgement from society. Just the way we sell it to the kids. He had a particular set of skills that apparently included shooting children in the face. That made him a nightmare for people like us.



I guess I failed to point out the most important part. It's not about him, but his family. People might very well take out their emotions on the family. "Your brother killed my 'x'". Claiming his sickness can be a way to distance themselves to that connection.

Edited, Dec 16th 2012 2:10am by Almalieque
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#55 Dec 15 2012 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
Any idiot who starts spouting off about 2nd ammendment bs is just that, an idiot. Banning guns would work about as well, probably even less so, than banning alcohol did. When was the last time one of these shooters used his own gun purchased through legal channels? Of the last 100 or so incidents, how many were of this nature?

Go ahead, I'll wait while you figure it out.


Not sure if you were being sarcastic, but I'm not sure if there's ever been a mass shooter who didn't obtain his weapons via legal channels. I suppose there might be the occasional illegal weapon in there, but generally the answer to you questions are "the last one; nearly all of them". I get what you're trying to say (that in the absence of the ability to obtain firearms legally, people who want them will obtain them illegally), but that was a pretty weak way to go about it.

A better argument along the same lines is that currently since mass shooters tend to obtain their firearms legally, they tend to use legal firearms to commit their crimes. If their only choice is to obtain them illegally, then we'd actually start seeing fully automatic weapons used in such shootings and death tolls would go up dramatically. Was that what you were trying to say?
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#56 Dec 15 2012 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
Any idiot who starts spouting off about 2nd ammendment bs is just that, an idiot. Banning guns would work about as well, probably even less so, than banning alcohol did. When was the last time one of these shooters used his own gun purchased through legal channels? Of the last 100 or so incidents, how many were of this nature?

Go ahead, I'll wait while you figure it out.


Not sure if you were being sarcastic, but I'm not sure if there's ever been a mass shooter who didn't obtain his weapons via legal channels.

And again (cough)
Guns legal or not
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#57gbaji, Posted: Dec 15 2012 at 11:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Correct. But never underestimate the value of emotion over reason!
#58 Dec 15 2012 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:


Fine. Propose a change then. Tell me what you think the 2nd amendment should say, and what our gun laws should be.


Shooting from the hip here zing, I'd propose banning the possession of any gun that is not a single shot hunting rifle or shotgun. Banning the manufacture and sale of those guns in USA, and destroying every one of those guns found. Eventually theyd be gone and out of reach from anyone except organized crime. You can still defend yourself from an intruder on your property with a shotgun.

A single shot weapon is much more similar to what they had in mind when they wrote the 2nd amendment anyway.

Without the access to the guns, I bet this guy would have still killed his family, probably with a knife, but hey a bunch of little kids would get to have christmas at least.

Before you say the pyschos would just use something different like a bomb, I think a bomb is siginificantly more difficult to obtain and gun control would still lower the rate of killing sprees substantially.
#59 Dec 15 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Before you say the psychos would just use something different like a bomb, I think a bomb is significantly more difficult to obtain and gun control would still lower the rate of killing sprees substantially.


Bombs aren't significantly more difficult to obtain.

In typical cases, It's significantly less fun to kill someone with a bomb than a gun though.
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#60 Dec 15 2012 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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A bomb isnt harder to obtain than a bunch of guns from your parents? A gun that you can buy in a shop? Is there some Bomb Store that I'm unaware of?
#61 Dec 15 2012 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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KTurner wrote:
Is there some Bomb Store that I'm unaware of?
Ten to fifteen bucks at any home repair shop.
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#62 Dec 15 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
KTurner wrote:
Is there some Bomb Store that I'm unaware of?
Ten to fifteen bucks at any home repair shop.

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#63 Dec 15 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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And yet people go through the effort and expense of amassing firearms, ammo and accessories for these killing sprees rather than dropping $10 at Home Depot for a bomb making kit. Which would suggest that, for whatever reason, they're not especially capable of or interested in making bombs but shooting people with guns and bullets.

The whole "they would just use [X]" argument is a lazy one on several levels.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 1:50pm by Jophiel
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#64 Dec 15 2012 at 3:32 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
And yet people go through the effort and expense of amassing firearms, ammo and accessories for these killing sprees rather than dropping $10 at Home Depot for a bomb making kit. Which would suggest that, for whatever reason, they're not especially capable of or interested in making bombs but shooting people with guns and bullets.

The whole "they would just use [X]" argument is a lazy one on several levels.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 1:50pm by Jophiel


Given the fact that the killer can choose any of those hypothetical weapons, yet still chooses the good 'ol hand gun should support that notion.
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#65 Dec 15 2012 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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So from the little bits of news that have gotten through over here, the guy was apparently suffering from some sort of mental disorder but didn't receive any treatment for that.
I'm more baffled about why you'd have guns around the house of someone who is mentally unstable in the first place and why the **** he wasn't getting any treatment. There's probably a whole lot more going on before they snap and start shooting up random people.


Are there actually any statistics on how many of these guys that snap were known to have (severe) mental health problems?
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#66 Dec 15 2012 at 6:15 PM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
So from the little bits of news that have gotten through over here, the guy was apparently suffering from some sort of mental disorder but didn't receive any treatment for that.
I'm more baffled about why you'd have guns around the house of someone who is mentally unstable in the first place and why the **** he wasn't getting any treatment. There's probably a whole lot more going on before they snap and start shooting up random people.


Are there actually any statistics on how many of these guys that snap were known to have (severe) mental health problems?


Like I said, don't read too much into what's coming out now. "Mental illness" can be anything from bulimic to bi-polar (talkative/quiet), etc. I haven't heard anything yet that suggests that his illness had a play in the matter. Sources say that the attack was planned, so he wasn't mentally retarded, i.e., he knew what he was doing.
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#67 Dec 15 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I agree with the "why would you have guns in the house with a mentally unstable teenager", but we have no evidence that he wasn't undergoing treatment.
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#68 Dec 15 2012 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
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Merry Christmas! I wonder how many people get a firearm as a gift this year?
Baby Jesus would approve......


Well, at least that didn't take long.




I have actually changed my mind about gun control. In the past I used to think that gun control should be stricter to stop people in the USA killing so many fellow humans.
Now, I dont believe gun control would have any effect at all. What I believe now is that there are enough people in the USA who are so spiritually lost, so morally fuctup, that they would just carry on killing regardless of the methods.

Also GFY.
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#69 Dec 15 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Default
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paulsol wrote:
gbaji wrote:
paulsol wrote:
Merry Christmas! I wonder how many people get a firearm as a gift this year?
Baby Jesus would approve......


Well, at least that didn't take long.




I have actually changed my mind about gun control. In the past I used to think that gun control should be stricter to stop people in the USA killing so many fellow humans.
Now, I dont believe gun control would have any effect at all. What I believe now is that there are enough people in the USA who are so spiritually lost, so morally fuctup, that they would just carry on killing regardless of the methods.

Also GFY.


Given the current situation, that's an interesting change of thought.
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#70 Dec 15 2012 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
And yet people go through the effort and expense of amassing firearms, ammo and accessories for these killing sprees rather than dropping $10 at Home Depot for a bomb making kit. Which would suggest that, for whatever reason, they're not especially capable of or interested in making bombs but shooting people with guns and bullets.

The whole "they would just use [X]" argument is a lazy one on several levels.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 1:50pm by Jophiel


Like I said, it's a lot more exciting to actively shoot someone, rather than set up a bomb and waiting.
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#71 Dec 15 2012 at 10:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Given that countries with much stricter gun laws aren't awash in cleaning solution bombings, I guess that "excitement" must be quite the kicker.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 10:10pm by Jophiel
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#72 Dec 15 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Like I said, it's a lot more excitingeasier to shoot someone, rather than set up a bomb.
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#73 Dec 15 2012 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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As a father of two young children, I've been having a hard time with this. Indeed, my wife had just had a talk with our four year old about starting school next fall, just before the news of this tragedy came to light. The problem I'm having, though, is the burning desire to make fun of it. Like with dead baby jokes, they just got funnier after I had babies of my own. I figure this is the right place for my outlet.

I'm just assuming this fuckwit wanted to become a Sith Lord by slaughtering younglings.
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#74 Dec 15 2012 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
Bipolar disorder goes way beyond "talkative/quiet." If you aren't actually going to appropriately describe something, don't bother at all. You're just making yourself look ignorant.
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#75 Dec 15 2012 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Bipolar disorder goes way beyond "talkative/quiet." If you aren't actually going to appropriately describe something, don't bother at all. You're just making yourself look ignorant.


Oh, they're saying he was bi-polar?
#76 Dec 15 2012 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, the most recent thing I heard was autism spectrum. Alma was just trolling about bipolar.
#77 Dec 16 2012 at 1:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Given that countries with much stricter gun laws aren't awash in cleaning solution bombings, I guess that "excitement" must be quite the kicker.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 10:10pm by Jophiel


They're called IEDs.
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#78 Dec 16 2012 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Given that countries with much stricter gun laws aren't awash in cleaning solution bombings, I guess that "excitement" must be quite the kicker.
They're called IEDs.

Oh, right. Because Afghanistan is devoid of guns Smiley: rolleyes

Or did you mean all the IEDs in Sweden or Canada?

Edited, Dec 16th 2012 2:02am by Jophiel
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#79 Dec 16 2012 at 4:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Given that countries with much stricter gun laws aren't awash in cleaning solution bombings, I guess that "excitement" must be quite the kicker.
They're called IEDs.

Oh, right. Because Afghanistan is devoid of guns Smiley: rolleyes

Or did you mean all the IEDs in Sweden or Canada?

Edited, Dec 16th 2012 2:02am by Jophiel
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#80 Dec 16 2012 at 7:53 AM Rating: Default
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Bipolar disorder goes way beyond "talkative/quiet." If you aren't actually going to appropriately describe something, don't bother at all. You're just making yourself look ignorant.

I was talking in a general sense to make the point that his mental illness could be anything. But since you brought it up

Bipolar disorder is defined by the presence of one or more episodes of abnormally elevated energy levels, cognition, and mood with or without one or more depressive episodes.

At the lower levels of mania, such as hypomania, individuals may appear energetic and excitable. At a higher level, individuals may behave erratically and impulsively, often making poor decisions due to unrealistic ideas about the future, and may have great difficulty with sleep. At the highest level, individuals can show psychotic behavior, including violence. Individuals who experience manic episodes also commonly experience depressive episodes, or symptoms, or a mixed state in which features of both mania and depression are present at the same time. These events are usually separated by periods of "normal" mood; but, in some individuals, depression and mania may rapidly alternate, which is known as rapid cycling. Severe manic episodes can sometimes lead to such psychotic symptoms as delusions and hallucinations.


Belkira wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Bipolar disorder goes way beyond "talkative/quiet." If you aren't actually going to appropriately describe something, don't bother at all. You're just making yourself look ignorant.


Oh, they're saying he was bi-polar?


No, I was pointing out that "mental illness" could mean anything and could be a disorder that did not have anything to do with his decision to kill. I believe that it's possible that his family is using that statement to avoid being unfairly treated as a family. That's why it COULD not be totally ridiculous to own a gun at your house when your child has anorexia (a mental disorder).
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#81 Dec 16 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, the most recent thing I heard was autism spectrum. Alma was just trolling about bipolar.

The most recent thing I heard was that no one has any idea. None. Also that media reports are blind repetitions of the 'diagnosis' of vague acquaintances who attended the same high school. The slack jawed stumble to the microphone to spew random guesses has been slightly worse than usual during this news event. I'd assume because viewers simply cannot get enough of murdered children so there's more at stake than the usual missing white lady or big rain storm.

Maybe he was autistic. Maybe he was bi polar. Maybe he had a lobotomy every week. Maybe his dead mother burned him with cigars while dressed like Daffy Duck and told him he was weaker than first graders.

There's not enough information to even begin to speculate yet.

What we can be fairly confident of so far is that his family seem to be giant douche bags. That's usually not enough to drive someone to child murder, but you know...MOST THINGS AREN'T. Nothing could be less relevant than his mental health history. Because there's no diagnostic inventory that includes "Murders dozens of schoolchildren".

Of what possible use could establishing a "motive" be here? To stigmatize a random class of mentally ill people? "Oh he was autistic. I know and autistic guy, I hope he doesn't decide to murder a first grade class". There's nothing to "make sense of" here. There's going to be no closure. It was a random act of attention seeking violence. The end. Unpreventable. Will almost certainly happen again. Life involves risk, including the infinitesimally minute risk that your kid will get shot in the face at school. Also that you'll kill them frying a turkey, or that a tree branch will fall on them and kill them. A child dies roughly every four seconds somehow for some reason somewhere in the world. There's another dead one. The fact that a whole minutes worth died at once in a rich suburb is less fascinating that you'd imagine without the sweet sweet joy of voyeurism. There's another dead one.

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#82 Dec 16 2012 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Don't you know Smash, anyone who's shy and socially clumsy must be autistic and we've blamed games, music and violence on TV so there's got to be something new to blame.


That said, if someone does have mental health issues (diagnosed by a doctor, not a classmate who says he was shy) then that could help figure out the why and how. And any little bit that can help prevent these things from happening, as far as that's possible anyway, is a good thing.
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#83 Dec 16 2012 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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And any little bit that can help prevent these things from happening


I believe that was his point. There really isn't anything that can predict, and therefore prevent, this kind of violence. You know how I know that? because everyone has violent fantasies, and so very few act on them.

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#84 Dec 16 2012 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Of course but some people are more likely to act on them than others. It won't ever be possible to prevent each and every one of these guys to go out and shoot random people but even if you can prevent some then that's a win. And I do think that if someone with a mental illness isn't getting the care and attention they need that they can become isolated from the world and eventually explode into a **** em all, it's not like they care about me anyway rage and go shoot anyone they can. Or if you've got someone who's schizophrenic they can get so paranoid that they'll think anyone is out to murder them, little kids included, if they don't get good treatment.

So yeah, I do think it's relevant to know whether or not these guys that snap were diagnosed with some mental illness and whether or not they had the proper healthcare. Not just this guy but the batman guy from a couple months ago as well.
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#85 Dec 16 2012 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
There's nothing to "make sense of" here. There's going to be no closure. It was a random act of attention seeking violence. The end. Unpreventable. Will almost certainly happen again. Life involves risk, including the infinitesimally minute risk that your kid will get shot in the face at school. Also that you'll kill them frying a turkey, or that a tree branch will fall on them and kill them. A child dies roughly every four seconds somehow for some reason somewhere in the world. There's another dead one. The fact that a whole minutes worth died at once in a rich suburb is less fascinating that you'd imagine without the sweet sweet joy of voyeurism. There's another dead one.


Smiley: thumbsup
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#86 Dec 16 2012 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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I believe that was his point. There really isn't anything that can predict, and therefore prevent, this kind of violence. You know how I know that? because everyone has violent fantasies, and so very few act on them.


I know it's a faux paus to place some of the blame on his dead Mom, but let's face it; if she didn't have those guns this many kids wouldn't be dead. When crazy people have access to weapons with the ability to kill easily, with little effort, they may use them. He tried to buy a gun & was denied, most likely 'cause of his aspergers, so he went another route.

Keep in mind, ultimately, it's his fault for making the decision to do this. But access to guns increased the body count exponentially.

As a society, we've decided that our ability to own guns outweighs the risk of these mass shootings. Until that changes, we gotta deal with the results of that decision.

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#87 Dec 16 2012 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
As a society, we've decided that our ability to own guns outweighs the risk of these mass shootings. Until that changes, we gotta deal with the results of that decision.


The worst part is how easy it is to protect these weapons.

Anyone who owns guns and refuses to keep them locked up is not fit to own a gun. I don't care about your action hero fantasies about springing out of bed and shooting the intruder with your bed side weapon to save the day. If every privately owned firearm was kept behind a fingerprint safe, these types of shootings would practically fade into history.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#88 Dec 16 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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If every privately owned firearm was kept behind a fingerprint safe, these types of shootings would practically fade into history.

Aside from the 80% of mass shootings where the murderer legally owned the weapons he used to commit the massacre, you mean.
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#89 Dec 16 2012 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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In the wake of the mass killing that claimed 26 children and adults at a Connecticut elementary school Friday, Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) made the case Sunday that the answer to preventing massacres in the U.S. is for more Americans to carry guns.
.......

"Chris, I wish to god she had had an m-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out ... and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids," Gohmert said.



I'm not sure of the support he will get. It's not looking good for the Republicans.
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In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.
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#91 Dec 16 2012 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.


I can not verify the validity, but I heard that gun violence from a legit gun owner is more than likely to occur within their own home than defending themselves.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#92 Dec 16 2012 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Worst. Title. Ever!
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14,946 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.



That has to be a lie. I saw on a picture posted on facebook by one of my gun loving coworkers that said:

Average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police:
18.25
Average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by civilians:
2.2
With no supporting evidence, so it wasn't hindered by facts.
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#93 Dec 16 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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The linked article has its methodology available for review. I'm sure you can play with the definitions of what's a "mass shooting" to tweak the numbers in your favor.

Edited, Dec 16th 2012 7:43pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#94 Dec 16 2012 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
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14,946 posts
Jophiel wrote:
If it's two people, was it a "mass killing"?

My comment wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

Jophiel wrote:
Anyway, the linked article has its methodology available for review.

I had read the whole thing prior to posting, and had thought about posting the link in reply to that person's picture, but I decided against it because I don't like being drawn into stupid facebook stuff.
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#95 Dec 16 2012 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Smart man.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#96 Dec 16 2012 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry for the spam. May or may not be legit. I know The Onion has imitators,

An Indiana man with 47 guns and stocks of ammunition was arrested after threatening to go into a local elementary school and 'kill as many people as he could before police could stop him'.

Von Meyer, 60, was arrested on Friday after his wife called Cedar Lake police after he threatened to set her on fire and continue his violent spree by attacking a nearby elementary school.

The loaded threat came the same day that a young man killed 20 children and seven others in Newtown, Connecticut.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#97 Dec 16 2012 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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21,717 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.


Quote:
Timothy McVeigh killed over 168 people, more than any other American. He didn't use one gun, he used fertilizer. The 9/11 terrorists didn't use guns either, they used box cutters. The Unabomber killed several people with pipe bombs over the course of a decade. Guns don't kill people. If people have a desire, they'll find another way.


I can pull random quotes too.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#98 Dec 16 2012 at 9:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Being carried by Reuters now.

Chicago Tribune wrote:
(Reuters) - A 60-year-old Indiana man found to have concealed dozens of firearms in his home has been jailed on charges he threatened to kill people at a nearby elementary school a day after one of the deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history.

Von Meyer was arrested and charged on Saturday after police found 47 weapons and ammunition in his two-story house, about 1,000 feet from Jane Ball Elementary School in Cedar Lake, Indiana, roughly 45 miles southeast of Chicago.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#99 Dec 16 2012 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
I can pull random quotes too.

Nothing random about my quote. It was linked to directly respond to comments made about how effective armed civilians would be at stopping these events.

But, sure, let's react to these massacres the same way we react to the terrorism plots your quote described. 9/11 meant we can't get within 1000' feet of an airplane without being scanned, patted and having our tiny shampoo bottles and knitting needles thrown away. Ammonium nitrate is so heavily regulated now (by the Dept of Homeland Security) that it's largely been dropped as a fertilizer due to the hassles in getting it. But murdering a couple dozen children apparently means "We must need more guns!!"

Just for kicks, here was the government's response to McVeigh...
Quote:
‘‘SEC. 899B. REGULATION OF THE SALE AND TRANSFER OF AMMONIUM
NITRATE.
‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary shall regulate the sale and
transfer of ammonium nitrate by an ammonium nitrate facility
in accordance with this subtitle to prevent the misappropriation
or use of ammonium nitrate in an act of terrorism.
‘‘(b) AMMONIUM NITRATE MIXTURES.—Not later than 90 days
after the date of the enactment of this subtitle, the Secretary,
in consultation with the heads of appropriate Federal departments
and agencies (including the Secretary of Agriculture), shall, after
notice and an opportunity for comment, establish a threshold
percentage for ammonium nitrate in a substance.
‘‘(c) REGISTRATION OF OWNERS OF AMMONIUM NITRATE FACILITIES.—
‘‘(1) REGISTRATION.—The Secretary shall establish a process
by which any person that—
‘‘(A) owns an ammonium nitrate facility is required
to register with the Department; and
‘‘(B) registers under subparagraph (A) is issued a registration
number for purposes of this subtitle.
‘‘(2) REGISTRATION INFORMATION.—Any person applying to
register under paragraph (1) shall submit to the Secretary—
‘‘(A) the name, address, and telephone number of each
ammonium nitrate facility owned by that person;
‘‘(B) the name of the person designated by that person
as the point of contact for each such facility, for purposes
of this subtitle; and
‘‘(C) such other information as the Secretary may determine
is appropriate.
‘‘(d) REGISTRATION OF AMMONIUM NITRATE PURCHASERS.—
‘‘(1) REGISTRATION.—The Secretary shall establish a process
by which any person that—
‘‘(A) intends to be an ammonium nitrate purchaser
is required to register with the Department; and
‘‘(B) registers under subparagraph (A) is issued a registration
number for purposes of this subtitle.
‘‘(2) REGISTRATION INFORMATION.—Any person applying to
register under paragraph (1) as an ammonium nitrate purchaser
shall submit to the Secretary—
‘‘(A) the name, address, and telephone number of the
applicant; and
‘‘(B) the intended use of ammonium nitrate to be purchased
by the applicant.
‘‘(e) RECORDS.—
‘‘(1) MAINTENANCE OF RECORDS.—The owner of an ammonium
nitrate facility shall—
‘‘(A) maintain a record of each sale or transfer of ammonium
nitrate, during the two-year period beginning on the
date of that sale or transfer; and
‘‘(B) include in such record the information described
in paragraph (2).
‘‘(2) SPECIFIC INFORMATION REQUIRED.—For each sale or
transfer of ammonium nitrate, the owner of an ammonium
nitrate facility shall—
‘‘(A) record the name, address, telephone number, and
registration number issued under subsection (c) or (d) of
each person that purchases ammonium nitrate, in a
manner prescribed by the Secretary;
‘‘(B) if applicable, record the name, address, and telephone
number of an agent acting on behalf of the person
described in subparagraph (A), at the point of sale;
‘‘(C) record the date and quantity of ammonium nitrate
sold or transferred; and
‘‘(D) verify the identity of the persons described in
subparagraphs (A) and (B), as applicable, in accordance
with a procedure established by the Secretary.
‘‘(3) PROTECTION OF INFORMATION.—In maintaining records
in accordance with paragraph (1), the owner of an ammonium
nitrate facility shall take reasonable actions to ensure the
protection of the information included in such records.
‘‘(f) EXEMPTION FOR EXPLOSIVE PURPOSES.—The Secretary may
exempt from this subtitle a person producing, selling, or purchasing
ammonium nitrate exclusively for use in the production of an explosive
under a license or permit issued under chapter 40 of title
18, United States Code.
‘‘(g) CONSULTATION.—In carrying out this section, the Secretary
shall consult with the Secretary of Agriculture, States, and appropriate
private sector entities, to ensure that the access of agricultural
producers to ammonium nitrate is not unduly burdened.
‘‘(h) DATA CONFIDENTIALITY.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding section 552 of title 5,
United States Code, or the USA PATRIOT ACT (Public Law
107–56; 115 Stat. 272), and except as provided in paragraph
(2), the Secretary may not disclose to any person any information
obtained under this subtitle.
‘‘(2) EXCEPTION.—The Secretary may disclose any information
obtained by the Secretary under this subtitle to—
‘‘(A) an officer or employee of the United States, or
a person that has entered into a contract with the United
States, who has a need to know the information to perform
the duties of the officer, employee, or person; or
‘‘(B) to a State agency under section 899D, under appropriate
arrangements to ensure the protection of the
information.
‘‘(i) REGISTRATION PROCEDURES AND CHECK OF TERRORIST
SCREENING DATABASE.—
‘‘(1) REGISTRATION PROCEDURES.—
‘‘(A) GENERALLY.—The Secretary shall establish procedures
to efficiently receive applications for registration
numbers under this subtitle, conduct the checks required
under paragraph (2), and promptly issue or deny a registration
number.
‘‘(B) INITIAL SIX-MONTH REGISTRATION PERIOD.—The
Secretary shall take steps to maximize the number of registration
applications that are submitted and processed
during the six-month period described in section 899F(e).
‘‘(2) CHECK OF TERRORIST SCREENING DATABASE.—
‘‘(A) CHECK REQUIRED.—The Secretary shall conduct
a check of appropriate identifying information of any person
seeking to register with the Department under subsection
(c) or (d) against identifying information that appears in
the terrorist screening database of the Department.
‘‘(B) AUTHORITY TO DENY REGISTRATION NUMBER.—If
the identifying information of a person seeking to register
with the Department under subsection (c) or (d) appears
in the terrorist screening database of the Department, the
Secretary may deny issuance of a registration number
under this subtitle.
‘‘(3) EXPEDITED REVIEW OF APPLICATIONS.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—Following the six-month period
described in section 899F(e), the Secretary shall, to the
extent practicable, issue or deny registration numbers
under this subtitle not later than 72 hours after the time
the Secretary receives a complete registration application,
unless the Secretary determines, in the interest of national
security, that additional time is necessary to review an
application.
‘‘(B) NOTICE OF APPLICATION STATUS.—In all cases, the
Secretary shall notify a person seeking to register with
the Department under subsection (c) or (d) of the status
of the application of that person not later than 72 hours
after the time the Secretary receives a complete registration
application.
‘‘(4) EXPEDITED APPEALS PROCESS.—
‘‘(A) REQUIREMENT.—
‘‘(i) APPEALS PROCESS.—The Secretary shall establish
an expedited appeals process for persons denied
a registration number under this subtitle.
‘‘(ii) TIME PERIOD FOR RESOLUTION.—The Secretary
shall, to the extent practicable, resolve appeals not
later than 72 hours after receiving a complete request
for appeal unless the Secretary determines, in the
interest of national security, that additional time is
necessary to resolve an appeal.
‘‘(B) CONSULTATION.—The Secretary, in developing the
appeals process under subparagraph (A), shall consult with
appropriate stakeholders.
‘‘(C) GUIDANCE.—The Secretary shall provide guidance
regarding the procedures and information required for an
appeal under subparagraph (A) to any person denied a
registration number under this subtitle.
‘‘(5) RESTRICTIONS ON USE AND MAINTENANCE OF INFORMATION.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—Any information constituting
grounds for denial of a registration number under this
section shall be maintained confidentially by the Secretary
and may be used only for making determinations under
this section.
‘‘(B) SHARING OF INFORMATION.—Notwithstanding any
other provision of this subtitle, the Secretary may share
any such information with Federal, State, local, and tribal
law enforcement agencies, as appropriate.
‘‘(6) REGISTRATION INFORMATION.—
‘‘(A) AUTHORITY TO REQUIRE INFORMATION.—The Secretary
may require a person applying for a registration
number under this subtitle to submit such information
as may be necessary to carry out the requirements of
this section.
‘‘(B) REQUIREMENT TO UPDATE INFORMATION.—The Secretary
may require persons issued a registration under
this subtitle to update registration information submitted
to the Secretary under this subtitle, as appropriate.
‘‘(7) RE-CHECKS AGAINST TERRORIST SCREENING DATABASE.—
‘‘(A) RE-CHECKS.—The Secretary shall, as appropriate,
recheck persons provided a registration number pursuant
to this subtitle against the terrorist screening database
of the Department, and may revoke such registration
number if the Secretary determines such person may pose
a threat to national security.
‘‘(B) NOTICE OF REVOCATION.—The Secretary shall, as
appropriate, provide prior notice to a person whose registration
number is revoked under this section and such person
shall have an opportunity to appeal, as provided in paragraph
(4).
‘‘SEC. 899C. INSPECTION AND AUDITING OF RECORDS.
‘‘The Secretary shall establish a process for the periodic inspection
and auditing of the records maintained by owners of ammonium
nitrate facilities for the purpose of monitoring compliance with
this subtitle or for the purpose of deterring or preventing the
misappropriation or use of ammonium nitrate in an act of terrorism.
‘‘SEC. 899D. ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS.
‘‘(a) COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS.—The Secretary—
‘‘(1) may enter into a cooperative agreement with the Secretary
of Agriculture, or the head of any State department
of agriculture or its designee involved in agricultural regulation,
in consultation with the State agency responsible for homeland
security, to carry out the provisions of this subtitle; and
‘‘(2) wherever possible, shall seek to cooperate with State
agencies or their designees that oversee ammonium nitrate
facility operations when seeking cooperative agreements to
implement the registration and enforcement provisions of this
subtitle.
‘‘(b) DELEGATION.—
‘‘(1) AUTHORITY.—The Secretary may delegate to a State
the authority to assist the Secretary in the administration
and enforcement of this subtitle.
‘‘(2) DELEGATION REQUIRED.—At the request of a Governor
of a State, the Secretary shall delegate to that State the
authority to carry out functions under sections 899B and 899C,
if the Secretary determines that the State is capable of satisfactorily
carrying out such functions.
‘‘(3) FUNDING.—Subject to the availability of appropriations,
if the Secretary delegates functions to a State under this subsection,
the Secretary shall provide to that State sufficient
funds to carry out the delegated functions.
‘‘(c) PROVISION OF GUIDANCE AND NOTIFICATION MATERIALS TO
AMMONIUM NITRATE FACILITIES.—
‘‘(1) GUIDANCE.—The Secretary shall make available to
each owner of an ammonium nitrate facility registered under
section 899B(c)(1) guidance on—
‘‘(A) the identification of suspicious ammonium nitrate
purchases or transfers or attempted purchases or transfers;
‘‘(B) the appropriate course of action to be taken by
the ammonium nitrate facility owner with respect to such
a purchase or transfer or attempted purchase or transfer,
including—
‘‘(i) exercising the right of the owner of the ammonium
nitrate facility to decline sale of ammonium
nitrate; and
‘‘(ii) notifying appropriate law enforcement entities;
and
‘‘(C) additional subjects determined appropriate to prevent
the misappropriation or use of ammonium nitrate
in an act of terrorism.
‘‘(2) USE OF MATERIALS AND PROGRAMS.—In providing guidance
under this subsection, the Secretary shall, to the extent
practicable, leverage any relevant materials and programs.
‘‘(3) NOTIFICATION MATERIALS.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary shall make available
materials suitable for posting at locations where ammonium
nitrate is sold.
‘‘(B) DESIGN OF MATERIALS.—Materials made available
under subparagraph (A) shall be designed to notify prospective
ammonium nitrate purchasers of—
‘‘(i) the record-keeping requirements under section
899B; and
‘‘(ii) the penalties for violating such requirements.
‘‘SEC. 899E. THEFT REPORTING REQUIREMENT.
‘‘Any person who is required to comply with section 899B(e)
who has knowledge of the theft or unexplained loss of ammonium
nitrate shall report such theft or loss to the appropriate Federal
law enforcement authorities not later than 1 calendar day of the
date on which the person becomes aware of such theft or loss.
Upon receipt of such report, the relevant Federal authorities shall
inform State, local, and tribal law enforcement entities, as appropriate.
‘‘SEC. 899F. PROHIBITIONS AND PENALTY.
‘‘(a) PROHIBITIONS.—
‘‘(1) TAKING POSSESSION.—No person shall purchase ammonium
nitrate from an ammonium nitrate facility unless such
person is registered under subsection (c) or (d) of section 899B,
or is an agent of a person registered under subsection (c)
or (d) of that section.
‘‘(2) TRANSFERRING POSSESSION.—An owner of an ammonium
nitrate facility shall not transfer possession of ammonium
nitrate from the ammonium nitrate facility to any ammonium
nitrate purchaser who is not registered under subsection (c)
or (d) of section 899B, or to any agent acting on behalf of
an ammonium nitrate purchaser when such purchaser is not
registered under subsection (c) or (d) of section 899B.
‘‘(3) OTHER PROHIBITIONS.—No person shall—
‘‘(A) purchase ammonium nitrate without a registration
number required under subsection (c) or (d) of section 899B;
‘‘(B) own or operate an ammonium nitrate facility without
a registration number required under section 899B(c);
or
‘‘(C) fail to comply with any requirement or violate
any other prohibition under this subtitle.
‘‘(b) CIVIL PENALTY.—A person that violates this subtitle may
be assessed a civil penalty by the Secretary of not more than
$50,000 per violation.
‘‘(c) PENALTY CONSIDERATIONS.—In determining the amount of
a civil penalty under this section, the Secretary shall consider—
‘‘(1) the nature and circumstances of the violation;
‘‘(2) with respect to the person who commits the violation,
any history of prior violations, the ability to pay the penalty,
and any effect the penalty is likely to have on the ability
of such person to do business; and
‘‘(3) any other matter that the Secretary determines that
justice requires.
‘‘(d) NOTICE AND OPPORTUNITY FOR A HEARING.—No civil penalty
may be assessed under this subtitle unless the person liable
for the penalty has been given notice and an opportunity for a
hearing on the violation for which the penalty is to be assessed
in the county, parish, or incorporated city of residence of that
person.
‘‘(e) DELAY IN APPLICATION OF PROHIBITION.—Paragraphs (1)
and (2) of subsection (a) shall apply on and after the date that
is 6 months after the date that the Secretary issues a final rule
implementing this subtitle.
‘‘SEC. 899G. PROTECTION FROM CIVIL LIABILITY.
‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law,
an owner of an ammonium nitrate facility that in good faith refuses
to sell or transfer ammonium nitrate to any person, or that in
good faith discloses to the Department or to appropriate law enforcement
authorities an actual or attempted purchase or transfer of
ammonium nitrate, based upon a reasonable belief that the person
seeking purchase or transfer of ammonium nitrate may use the
ammonium nitrate to create an explosive device to be employed
in an act of terrorism (as defined in section 3077 of title 18,
United States Code), or to use ammonium nitrate for any other
unlawful purpose, shall not be liable in any civil action relating
to that refusal to sell ammonium nitrate or that disclosure.
‘‘(b) REASONABLE BELIEF.—A reasonable belief that a person
may use ammonium nitrate to create an explosive device to be
employed in an act of terrorism under subsection (a) may not
solely be based on the race, ***, national origin, creed, religion,
status as a veteran, or status as a member of the Armed Forces
of the United States of that person.
‘‘SEC. 899H. PREEMPTION OF OTHER LAWS.
‘‘(a) OTHER FEDERAL REGULATIONS.—Except as provided in section
899G, nothing in this subtitle affects any regulation issued
by any agency other than an agency of the Department.
‘‘(b) STATE LAW.—Subject to section 899G, this subtitle preempts
the laws of any State to the extent that such laws are
inconsistent with this subtitle, except that this subtitle shall not
preempt any State law that provides additional protection against
the acquisition of ammonium nitrate by terrorists or the use of
ammonium nitrate in explosives in acts of terrorism or for other
illicit purposes, as determined by the Secretary.


Edited, Dec 16th 2012 10:09pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#100 Dec 16 2012 at 11:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Lunatic
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29,426 posts
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/mother-of-sandy-hook-gunman-adam-lanza-was-a-gun-obsessive-living-in-fear-of-societys-collapse-16251468.html

Her sister-in-law Marsha Lanza told reporters at her Illinois home that her gun-obsessed relative was part of the ‘prepper’ movement that fears an economic collapse will lead to a breakdown in society.

“She prepared for the worst,” Ms Lanza said.

“Last time we visited her in person, we talked about prepping — are you ready for what could happen down the line, when the economy collapses?”

Nancy Lanza (52) had five registered firearms, had begun stockpiling food and taught Adam how to shoot. He is believed to have used three of her guns — a Bushmaster .223-calibre, and two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9mm — in the school massacre after he shot her dead in bed.


I'm not sure she was prepared for "the worst", actually.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#101 Dec 17 2012 at 12:02 AM Rating: Default
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22,697 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.


Meh. I know of at least one case where a civilian could have shot the assailant but decided not to because there was a good chance of him hitting some random people. Assailant saw him with his gun and moved his plan onto the stage where he shoots himself instead of continuing to shoot other people.

Bad study is bad.
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