The Rule of ReciprocationFollow

Okay, let me rephrase. If you order take out specifically to avoid tipping, then you're a jackass. If you're doing it to save a few bucks, but ordinarily have no problem with tipping, then you're fine. That's really what I meant.

Or they could be European where we're not used to people having to make a living off of their tips.

I shouldn't forget to remind my mom and brother what kind of tips are expected when they're going to the States in ~2.5 years for his 18th birthday (provided he doesn't change his mind yet again)

Yeah, or we could go the way of France and include the tip in the check automatically.

Depends on how you go about it I think. If the new customary is to tip 20%, and you allow for people to tip more if they wish, it would probably only help servers.

Fortunately, my argument's premise is decisions based on the value of the food, nothing else. That's what you're not understanding. I've said that several times. We buy things on whether or not something is a good value. Tax is NOT part of that value because that's regulated by the government, NOT by the person selling the product nor is the tax avoidable. No matter what you buy, you will have to pay tax and it will be the same rate. Furthermore, unless tips are already included, then they are completely optional. There is no law mandating that you pay 15%. If all you can afford to tip is 5%, then you tip 5%. Again, if that's the case, you probably shouldn't be eating out.



Read above. It's not about " a few bucks", if you're paying for something that you believe is a good value, but you can't afford the tax or a worthy tip, then you are probably spending above your budget.



Of course it's about value. That's what I keep saying. However, if the tax and tip on a fair value meal will affect your budget, then you are spending too much money.



What scenario is there that you WOULD go to an overpriced restaurant? Does the reason why its overprice matter?



Unless it's your first time going to a restaurant, then you know the average meal range. I'm not going to go to a dine in restaurant with a $10 budget. Yes, you can buy something, but at some point, you would have to use the common sense factor. With a $10 budget, you would get more for your money at a fast food restaurant. That concept applies to other restaurants.

Depends on your opinion of what overpriced is, you wouldn't go to an overpriced restaurant for any of those things while you would go to an expensive one. Unless Alma and Gbaji have violated the English language again and they mean expensive when they say overpriced.

Unless? Likely.

I enjoy a nice cheap over-priced restaurant.

You're such a tease.

Only because you keep insisting that everything except the price of the food somehow magically doesn't count. Kinda circular IMO.



False. I can buy all the ingredients for a steak dinner at the grocery store and make my own dinner. Guess what? No sales tax. I order the exact same dinner in a restaurant, I'm paying the cost for the decor, the service, for someone else to cook my meal, and the tax on the whole meal cost *and* a tip.. When making the decision to eat at said restaurant, I'm going to assess whether those extra costs are worth it. I'm going to take into account the fact that I don't have to cook it, the meal may very well be higher quality than I could cook at home, the value of the environment for a social occasion, etc.

Tax is absolutely avoidable when it comes to food. You *only* pay tax on food when someone else prepares it for you. You only pay tips on food when someone else serves it too you. Those are the costs (some of them anyway) of those things. Pretending they don't matter is pretty darn silly.



Sure. But I think you are grossly misunderstanding how people respond to things like higher costs for a meal.



Do you understand the concept of a budget? If a few bucks pushes you over your budget, you'll find something else to buy that is under your budget. That might be a lower cost item on the menu at the same restaurant, it might be a meal at a different restaurant, or it might mean you just choose not to eat out in the first place. Any/all of these represent a decrease in revenue to the restaurant owner. This is not freaking rocket science here.



I'll repeat my observation that you and I have completely different concepts of "budget". You seem to think budget means what you can afford. I think budget means what you are willing to pay. Smart people tend to set budgets for things that are well below what they can actually afford. They do this because if they don't, then they will always spend the maximum they can afford, and will never be able to save up any money.

This is why I said that anyone who budgets based on what he can afford will not be able to afford much.



In the context of this discussion, if the reason is because the employer is paying the waitstaff a higher wage and expecting their customers to tip, then it absolutely does matter.



So what? Nothing you are babbling on about actually addresses what I'm saying. WTF? If the cost of the meal is more than you're willing to pay, then you wont pay it. Thus, if an increase in base pay for the waitstaff across the board reduces by even some small amount the number of people willing to pay for those meal, the employer will lose money. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp.

There's no sales tax in grocery stores in California...?

On basic food? No. Non food items are taxed though. So a can of soup, bag of frozen veggies, rice, meat, etc are all not subject to sales tax. Some exceptions apply when you get into single serving bottles and cans of stuff (plus we have CRV on those kinds of things), but as a general rule buying food in a store and preparing it yourself is "rewarded" by you not paying taxes for it, while anything that is prepared is subject to sales tax.