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#52 Nov 22 2012 at 2:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I like how quickly they made his window full screen, and then the "breaking news" was slipped in.
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#53 Nov 22 2012 at 3:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm finding it interesting how much range, accuracy and quantity hamas was able to get out of their rockets. I'm almost wondering if we've found where that massive pile of russian made man portable SAM's that went missing from Lybia ended up.

A rocket that can travel a mile in a relitivly straight line with enough of a payload to be useful at the terminal end isn't particularily hard, but it does require certain things, like access to large quantities of propellant (homemade, probably tire rubber and nitrus oxide or something similar), lightweight yet strong pipe sections of some sort for caseings and rocket bodies, and military grade explosives for charges. Possibly a simple servo + heading hold gyro guidance system too ($4 worth of parts from China on ebay) but they've got too many of them, made better than their available assembly conditions should warrant for it to be just homemade inventory.
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#54 Nov 28 2012 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I'm finding it interesting how much range, accuracy and quantity hamas was able to get out of their rockets. I'm almost wondering if we've found where that massive pile of russian made man portable SAM's that went missing from Lybia ended up.


Linky, on the chance you hadn't heard already...

Also a little Smiley: tinfoilhat

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On the night of October 23, four Israeli fighter jets reportedly screamed across the skies over Khartoum and bombed the Yarmouk weapons factory, which belongs to Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. It didn’t take long to learn that the weapons the Israelis had allegedly targeted – weapons that one Israeli intelligence official describes as “game changers” – were bound for Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Sudan, after all, is a common point of origin for the smuggling routes that carry Iranian weapons up through Egypt, across the Sinai Peninsula, and into Hamas’ labyrinth of underground tunnels.


Quote:
At first blush, the Israeli response appeared out of character. Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza have fired thousands of rockets at Israel in recent years, but only elicited one full-scale response :Operation Cast Lead in late 2008 and early 2009. Since then, one rocket attack out of Gaza has earned one or two Israeli missiles in return. Sometimes, the Israelis didn’t even bother to respond at all.

From all appearances, it was alarming intelligence pointing to the existence of Fajrs in Gaza that drove the Israelis to mobilize this time, not a handful of short-range rockets. The Israelis appear to have learned that some of these “game-changer” rockets from the IRGC plant in Yarmouk had made their way into Gaza. This was a red line: The Fajr-5 rockets have powerful payloads and ranges long enough to strike Israel’s largest cities, bringing millions of civilians into the crosshairs.


Edited, Nov 28th 2012 2:42pm by someproteinguy
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#55 Nov 29 2012 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
So, the UN voted for Palestinian statehood today. The US voted against & its my understanding it now has the same rights as the Vatican.
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#56 Nov 30 2012 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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@#%^ ya! Palestine. I am so ashamed in my country voting no. @#%^ing makes me sick that we can sit here in our cozy castle in north america and dictate that others do not deserve the same avenues to freedom that we poses. Absolutely pathetic. I am glad to see however that such powerful nations like Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru and Palau. were also on our side voting against Palestine.

138 countries vs 9. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

Congrats Palestine, this is a large step in progress toward earning your freedom from the tyranny of Israeli persecution.
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#57 Nov 30 2012 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:

138 countries vs 9. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

It makes me ashamed. I do not understand why anyone would vote against it.
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#58 Nov 30 2012 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
So, the UN voted for Palestinian statehood today. The US voted against & its my understanding it now has the same rights as the Vatican.

Yeah, they're not a full-fledged state (the vote for that could be vetoed by UN Security Council nations, i.e. the US) but an "Observer State" which only required a simple majority.
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#59 Nov 30 2012 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:

138 countries vs 9. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

It makes me ashamed. I do not understand why anyone would vote against it.

Explanation I've heard is that giving Palestine more UN recognition makes a settlement between Israel and Palestine less likely. Somehow. Perhaps because then it makes it more likely that the Palestinians will use the UN as a vehicle to negotiate the terms of their settlement, rather than just having Israel and the US brokering the deal.
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#60 Nov 30 2012 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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I caught a bit about objection to Palestine's fractured government between Gaza & the West Bank region as well but I won't pretend to be an expert until I can load up Wikipedia.
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#61 Nov 30 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Makes me sick that Canada jumped on the US bandwagon on this. F'n disgusting.
#62 Nov 30 2012 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I caught a bit about objection to Palestine's fractured government between Gaza & the West Bank region as well but I won't pretend to be an expert until I can load up Wikipedia.
Doesn't stop anyone else from being experts.
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#63 Nov 30 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Makes me sick that Canada jumped on the US bandwagon on this. F'n disgusting.


51st state! Smiley: tinfoilhat
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#64 Nov 30 2012 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:

138 countries vs 9. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

It makes me ashamed. I do not understand why anyone would vote against it.

Explanation I've heard is that giving Palestine more UN recognition makes a settlement between Israel and Palestine less likely. Somehow. Perhaps because then it makes it more likely that the Palestinians will use the UN as a vehicle to negotiate the terms of their settlement, rather than just having Israel and the US brokering the deal.

So the problem is that they might have a shot at getting a fair deal rather than being bent over the table by a world super-power?
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#65 Nov 30 2012 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:

138 countries vs 9. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

It makes me ashamed. I do not understand why anyone would vote against it.

Explanation I've heard is that giving Palestine more UN recognition makes a settlement between Israel and Palestine less likely. Somehow. Perhaps because then it makes it more likely that the Palestinians will use the UN as a vehicle to negotiate the terms of their settlement, rather than just having Israel and the US brokering the deal.

So the problem is that they might have a shot at getting a fair deal rather than being bent over the table by a world super-power?

I thought that was what I said? Smiley: laugh
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#66 Dec 01 2012 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Road to peace.

Glad to see Israel is all about working on that peace.
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#67 Dec 01 2012 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Road to peace.

Glad to see Israel is all about working on that peace.

@#%^ Israel.
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#68 Dec 01 2012 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Road to peace.

Glad to see Israel is all about working on that peace.

In Israel's eyes, "working on that peace" was tossed when Palestine went ahead with the statehood bid rather than negotiating a permanent solution with Israel. If Palestine isn't playing the game, why should Israel pretend to do so?
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#69 Dec 01 2012 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Road to peace.

Glad to see Israel is all about working on that peace.

In Israel's eyes, "working on that peace" was tossed when Palestine went ahead with the statehood bid rather than negotiating a permanent solution with Israel. If Palestine isn't playing the game, why should Israel pretend to do so?


Because two wrongs don't make a right and actions like this convert Israel from a defender of sovereignty to an aggressor. I don't imagine people would react so nonchalantly if the U.S. suddenly decided to declare a large swath of Canada connecting Alaska to Washington open for U.S. settlement.
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#70 Dec 01 2012 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Israel stopped construction of the settlements as a precursor to arriving at mutually agreed borders and conditions for a permanent solution. Palestine has gone ahead and tried to preemptively declare sovereignty over lands still under dispute. Settling those lands with Israeli citizens is the counter to Palestine just saying "Nope, all ours. See? The UN said so."
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Because two wrongs don't make a right

One wrong doesn't make a right either but you had no issue with Palestine throwing out the previous work and going ahead with a statehood bid instead.

Edited, Dec 1st 2012 12:10pm by Jophiel
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#71 Dec 01 2012 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
One wrong doesn't make a right either but you had no issue with Palestine throwing out the previous work and going ahead with a statehood bid instead.


I have no problem with Palestine going through legal international channels to establish sovereignty that is denied to them only by a handful of nations whose sole reason for opposition is either political, religious, or idealogical. There's no practical reason to deny the Palenstenian state.
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#72 Dec 01 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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That's fine so long as you understand that, by doing so, they ended the previous agreements to work with Israel and Israel shouldn't feel bound by their obligations which were based on that agreement.
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denied to them only by a handful of nations

One of which is the holder of that territory via an ill planned war against them and the conquest of the land following. Which is why a negotiated settlement between Israel & Palestine was a better idea than the land-grab Palestine apparently wants instead.


Edited, Dec 1st 2012 12:27pm by Jophiel
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#73 Dec 01 2012 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Road to peace.

Glad to see Israel is all about working on that peace.

In Israel's eyes, "working on that peace" was tossed when Palestine went ahead with the statehood bid rather than negotiating a permanent solution with Israel. If Palestine isn't playing the game, why should Israel pretend to do so?


Israel has been pretending to play for over 40 years. Its always the same thing. Israel does not wish to negotiate a permanent solution, and why would they. Up until recently Israel could call the shots with pretty much impunity. Yet over the last 40 years Israel has settled more and more disputed land and refuses to return to its 1967 borders. Israel has routinely cut the people of Palestine off from the rest of the world, segregating them from the greater Arab Community and literally fencing them in behind armed guard and restricting their access to the sea.

Numerous time Israel has marched into palestine and murdered thousands, numerous times have they instigated responses. Israel has no lust for peace, they want the land they deem theirs by destiny, and continue to take it through force (or display of force) and have been for 40 years. Israel is the proud holder of the largest free air internment camps in the world. Which is rather Ironic considering the stark similarities to pre-"final solution" internment of Jews in Europe.

Thats not to say that Palestine has not shown they wish to have a diplomatic solution either, they have of course over the years thrown the first stone. But Palestine has always lacked one thing, support in the world body. Throughout history Israel has been able to use the power of the UN to dictate its position in the Middle East, with traditional allies in France, UK, and the US backing them up. Palestine now has an equal opportunity to plead its case on the world stage through its new found ability to access the powers of the UN.

I also find it humorous that the US so adamantly condemns Palestinians efforts to establish their own nation, and attain freedom from the tyrannical Oppression of their local masters in Israel. I mean sh*t the US was built on a social/political revolution that resulted in a War. These people are referred to in history as patriots, today we call these people terrorists, and radicals.

How hypocritical to say Palestine didn't want to play by the rules Israel demanded they follow...for illusions of peace, still trapped behind a fence, cut off from their greater community, cut off from the world.

@#%^ Israel.
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#74 Dec 01 2012 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
How hypocritical to say Palestine didn't want to play by the rules Israel demanded they follow...for illusions of peace, still trapped behind a fence, cut off from their greater community, cut off from the world.

All Israel's fault, too Smiley: rolleyes

There is no hypocrisy. The cessation of settlements was based on an agreement to strike a final agreement. Palestine ended that agreement therefore Israel restarted their program. That this is unfortunate for Palestine is something to have been considered before they ended the agreement. For some reason you think one party should be able to make unilateral decisions about the territory without consequence. That's not reality and this is the consequence.

If you think the ability to stand in a room in New York and make speeches was worth that, then great. Because that's about what their observer state status gains them.

Edited, Dec 1st 2012 1:27pm by Jophiel
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#75 Dec 01 2012 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'd rather see them build houses than fire rockets. Even if the houses are being built with malicious intent, it's better than the alternative. It's like a large scale sit-in!


Edited, Dec 1st 2012 1:26pm by trickybeck
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#76 Dec 01 2012 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
In this, as in other Palestine threads I read that the Palestinians are poor, cut off, beyond help from their neighbors, etc


OK, I don't claim to be an expert on the Middle East, but I guess I missed the part of history where Israel totaly kept every single oil-rich Arab/Muslim country in the region from pouring in massive amounts of cash for infrastructure/housing, etc, etc for the Palestinians for the past 60 years.

Hmm, must be because the Jews run all the banks, amirite?
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#77 Dec 01 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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If you think the ability to stand in a room in New York and make speeches was worth that, then great. Because that's about what their observer state status gains them.


Yeah, Israel is clearly completely unafraid of the UN and the ICC.

Quote:
That's fine so long as you understand that, by doing so, they ended the previous agreements to work with Israel and Israel shouldn't feel bound by their obligations which were based on that agreement.


How do you reconcile a belief that states should feel bound by their commitments with the belief that Israel is not bound to the UN Charter it signed? You clearly have some kind of normative framework here, maybe you can explain it for me.
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#78 Dec 01 2012 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Yeah, Israel is clearly completely unafraid of the UN and the ICC.
[...]
How do you reconcile a belief that states should feel bound by their commitments with the belief that Israel is not bound to the UN Charter it signed? You clearly have some kind of normative framework here, maybe you can explain it for me.

First, a moment to appreciate the sentiment that "Two wrongs doesn't make a right!" only applies when it's Israel in second "Wrong".
...
Now that that's done, it's called "reality". Israel's commitments to the UN are for the UN to enforce. Commitments between Israel and Palestine are for them to enforce. The UN isn't going to do jack about Israel regardless of whether or not the UN would be in the "right". Cry about that all you want, but that's the truth. Israel will do something about Palestine breaking its agreement. Cry about that all you want but that's reality and it's the choice Palestine made. Palestine isn't dealing from a position of power here and if the government cared more about its people than it does about trying to sustain relevance by prolonging the conflict, they'd be acting like it.

Now if you want to stick with idealism, what you should be doing is demanding that Palestine hold up its obligations to Israel the same way you'd demand that Israel hold up its obligations to the UN. But I don't see much of that happening.

In the end though, this isn't really about "upholding commitments", is it? It's about ending an agreement. Palestine ended the agreement that they'd seek resolution through Israel and Israel would hold off on building settlements. So now Israel is building settlements. Really, both parties "upheld" their agreement in that Palestine ended the agreement so they're back to where they were years ago. A flawed demand to "uphold commitments" would be to demand Israel to stop building despite Palestine deciding that they want out.

Edited, Dec 1st 2012 2:16pm by Jophiel
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#79 Dec 01 2012 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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First, a moment to appreciate the sentiment that "Two wrongs doesn't make a right!" only applies when it's Israel in second "Wrong".


Not entirely sure what you're saying, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with my question.

Quote:
Now that that's done, it's called "reality".


A claim that someone 'should' so something is not a claim about reality. You can't make normative claims and then hide behind realpolitik.

Quote:
A flawed demand to "uphold commitments" would be to demand Israel to stop building despite Palestine deciding that they want out.


That is not a condition of Israel's commitments under international law.
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#80 Dec 01 2012 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
A claim that someone 'should' so something is not a claim about reality. You can't make normative claims and then hide behind realpolitik.

You're the one saying I "clearly have a normative framework" not me so you can noodle that one out. As I stated, it's not a question of that Palestine "should" feel anything. It's a statement of reality that they ended the agreement keeping Israel from building settlements and now Israel is building settlements. Doesn't get much easier than that.

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That is not a condition of Israel's commitments under international law.

No, it was a condition of the agreement between Israel and Palestine. I thought that much was made very clear.

Edited, Dec 1st 2012 2:46pm by Jophiel
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#81 Dec 01 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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You're the one saying I "clearly have a normative framework" not me so you can noodle that one out.


If you don't, then your whole post was witter. A perfect response, in that case, would have been "I don't".

If that is the case, you should know that if you say someone should feel bound then absolutely everyone will perceive that as a normative claim, even those people who don't know what those words mean.

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No, it was a condition of the agreement between Israel and Palestine. I thought that much was made very clear.


Israel's commitments under international law are not contigent on such an agreement. Therefore, it is not 'flawed' (meaning, presumably, internally inconsistent? illogical?), as you said it was, to claim that Israel must stop settling in order to uphold its commitments. You brushed on it yourself when you said both had 'upheld' the agreement in a fashion, but the agreement is just that, an agreement. It is not a commitment under international law, or at all, really.

Saying that you're not going to do something you're already bound not to do in exchange for something else does not mean that you are freed from your original obligation when you do not get the thing for which you gave the promise.
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#82 Dec 01 2012 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
If that is the case, you should know that if you say someone should feel bound then absolutely everyone will perceive that as a normative claim, even those people who don't know what those words mean.

I'll keep that in mind for the day I start writing professorial treatises on Israel rather than forum postings.

Quote:
Israel's commitments under international law are not contigent on such an agreement. Therefore, it is not 'flawed' (meaning, presumably, internally inconsistent? illogical?), as you said it was, to claim that Israel must stop settling in order to uphold its commitments. You brushed on it yourself when you said both had 'upheld' the agreement in a fashion, but the agreement is just that, an agreement. It is not a commitment under international law, or at all, really.

It was, however, the only thing actually keeping them from doing it as we see today and Palestine made the decision to end it. You seem to put a lot more weight on the UN thing than it deserves (given the chance of consequence) which is fine for you but that and fifty cents will get you a cup of coffee to drink as you watch Israel build the settlements.
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#83 Dec 01 2012 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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First a moment to appreciate the phrase "Two wrongs don't make a right"...okay, moving on

Reading Joph when I don't have a horse in the race, can be pretty amusing, since I have no opinion.
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#84 Dec 01 2012 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Reading Joph when I don't have a horse in the race, can be pretty amusing, since I have no opinion.

I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing Smiley: laugh
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#85 Dec 01 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
One wrong doesn't make a right either but you had no issue with Palestine throwing out the previous work and going ahead with a statehood bid instead.


I have no problem with Palestine going through legal international channels to establish sovereignty that is denied to them only by a handful of nations whose sole reason for opposition is either political, religious, or idealogical. There's no practical reason to deny the Palenstenian state.

Not sure how long until the Israelis take that state from them, too, though.

Edited, Dec 1st 2012 6:26pm by Nilatai
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#86 Dec 02 2012 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
How hypocritical to say Palestine didn't want to play by the rules Israel demanded they follow...for illusions of peace, still trapped behind a fence, cut off from their greater community, cut off from the world.

All Israel's fault, too Smiley: rolleyes

There is no hypocrisy. The cessation of settlements was based on an agreement to strike a final agreement. Palestine ended that agreement therefore Israel restarted their program. That this is unfortunate for Palestine is something to have been considered before they ended the agreement. For some reason you think one party should be able to make unilateral decisions about the territory without consequence. That's not reality and this is the consequence.

If you think the ability to stand in a room in New York and make speeches was worth that, then great. Because that's about what their observer state status gains them.

Edited, Dec 1st 2012 1:27pm by Jophiel


Israel has built settlements for decades, hell they did in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. They have been doing it for decades. Israel has no desire for peace, because they do not need to have peace. They have for the past 40 years contained and cut off Palestine from the rest of the world. No land access, no air access, no sea access...without of course the ok from Israel. That isn't peace, that is being subordinate.

When was the last time your government or mine condemned the clear and present human rights violations in Palestine? When was the last time we said, no doing that is not right and we can't accept that. We don't. We call attacks against Israel acts of terror, we support Israel in constricting Palestine from the world and call it home defense. Hell we pay for Israel to be able to do this.

How is that not hypocritical. Our entire position when it comes to Israel has been hypocritical. Part of that comes from our appeasement mindset which arose from the ashes of the Final Solution, part of that is because Israel is a strong foothold into a volitile yet resource rich middle east. Yet to call foul on one party, and not on another is hypocritical. Evidently the rest of the world no longer agrees that Israel is right, that it is the Palestinians. 138 countries show support for a free palestine, 9 6 of which are mostly irrelevant economically, politically, or militarily. We desire peace...yet instead of taking a neutral stance on the position we decided that we would to say no Palestine doesn't deserve that either...yet we have/had folks the Ghadafi, Assad, Hussein, Ahmadinejad (or w/e) all represented on the world stage...so why not Palestine?

If we truly desire peaceful resolution, how can we attempt to deny access to sources of peaceful resolution? That is hypocritical.

We are the same when it comes to Israel period...we condemn Iran for using words, yet we support Israels cyber attacks, its planned pre-strike mission, we support its recent air strike in Sudan, yet we condemn Ahmadinejad (or w/e) because he said he would wipe Israel off the map.

We are hypocrites. If it doesn't serve the west, it isn't our concern. Its pathetic, and the world seems to agree.
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#87 Dec 02 2012 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Israel has no desire for peace, because they do not need to have peace.

Palestine has no desire for peace because, without conflict, the governments who get elected with a platform of railing against Israel and swearing death to the Jews are irreverent. Which is too bad because they'd have so much more to gain from not acting like that.

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When was the last time your government or mine condemned the clear and present human rights violations in Palestine?

Yesterday?

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We call attacks against Israel acts of terror

They are. When you indiscriminately launch rockets into civilian centers or detonate bombs in playgrounds and schools and buses and cafes, that's terrorism. Did you have some other word for this Are these noble freedom fighter patriots who intentionally blow up children and hide on hospital rooftops to launch their rocket? I remember people trying to imply so during the 2008 attacks and subsequent Gaza conflict.

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Yet to call foul on one party, and not on another is hypocritical.

This explains your many, many lengthy screeds and diatribes against the terrible Palestinian terrorists, the people who elect them into power and the foreign governments which support them. Oh, wait, that never happened. Huh.

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If we truly desire peaceful resolution, how can we attempt to deny access to sources of peaceful resolution?

Because those governments don't believe this is a source of peaceful resolution.

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We are the same when it comes to Israel period...we condemn Iran for using words, yet we support Israels cyber attacks, its planned pre-strike mission, we support its recent air strike in Sudan, yet we condemn Ahmadinejad (or w/e) because he said he would wipe Israel off the map.

I'm not even sure what to say about this. Did you learn what's going on with Iran off of a PLO flier? Yeah, those things were solely because Ahmadinejad said some words Smiley: rolleyes
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#88 Dec 02 2012 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Palestine has no desire for peace because, without conflict, the governments who get elected with a platform of railing against Israel and swearing death to the Jews are irreverent. Which is too bad because they'd have so much more to gain from not acting like that.


Really grasping on the reasoning there aren't you? The governments run on platforms against Israel because of what Israel does. If there were peace don't you think the government would focus on nation building? Kind of hard to focus on nation building when your roads, rails, airports, and shp yards are all under occupation and containment by the IDF. Israel has not once shown any inclination that they wish to establish peace, when the rockets stop Israel just bulldozes homes, and shells schools citing security reasoning...and we in the west turn a blind eye to it.
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Yesterday?


That is not regarding the Human Rights violations. That is regarding the disputed legality of Israel establishing settlements in occupied territory. The territory Israel is settling is not regarded by the international body as Israeli land. This dispute has been ongoing for decades, with the US changing its stance numerous times over the years. Most recently when Obama said his administration would not support the settlement of occupied territories.

Where was the condemnation of the IDF shelling a school? We in the west said that Hamas likes to use human shields. Meanwhile the IDF continually uses Palestinian citizens as human shields in incursions into Gaza and the West Bank, even though the government supposedly said that practice will be abolished in 2005. Yet in 2009 IDF used civilians to march infront of their troops, and to enter homes and businesses to check for booby traps during Operation Cast Shield.

The last condemnation of Israels human rights violations was by the EU this year. Ironically enough the EU was also mysteriously absent from the list of Nay's in the UN vote to recognize Palestine as a State.

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They are. When you indiscriminately launch rockets into civilian centers or detonate bombs in playgrounds and schools and buses and cafes, that's terrorism. Did you have some other word for this Are these noble freedom fighter patriots who intentionally blow up children and hide on hospital rooftops to launch their rocket? I remember people trying to imply so during the 2008 attacks and subsequent Gaza conflict.


Sure from your perspective it could be considered terrorism, but hey during your countries own revolution your patriots and heroes were regarded as guerillas and traitors. Radicals against established peace justice and liberty. The 1700's most notorious terriorst organization. Who happened to pave the way to the single largest bastion of freedom and prosperity the world has ever known. But they were by your definition terrorists of their day. Although many would call them patriots and freedom fighters and I am sure you do too.

They can only fight, the world turned their backs on them. Each year the US sends billions to Israel...how much do you send to Palestine, how much does anyone send to Palestine. (the answer is over 2Trillion for Israel, and just over 5 Billion for Palestine. Interesting to note that more Palestinians invest in Israel than they do their own state). They have no economic means because Israel has cut them off politically, and economically from the rest of the world. (at least until a few days ago).

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This explains your many, many lengthy screeds and diatribes against the terrible Palestinian terrorists, the people who elect them into power and the foreign governments which support them. Oh, wait, that never happened. Huh.


Why talk about what everyone already knows. Anyone that reads news in North America knows everything Palestine has done. What gets buried is the stuff Israel does, If you don't believe me go read some mid-east news papers, and get away from the desensitized slop they fill us with...if they deem it worthwhile to us reading.

I mean have you read this story yet?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/12/2012122101441576517.html

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/archive/
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/world/mideast/index.html

I could keep going but why bother.

Don't you think with holding revenues that belong to Palestine (Gaza-Jericho Agreement) isn't important news? Why is it not on the news wires, its not even in the stories. Yet freezing a nations assets that you agreed to give them is not newsworthy...must be because it is an act of peace.

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Because those governments don't believe this is a source of peaceful resolution.


Thats fine 138 nations felt it was the right path to a peaceful resolution. 9 countries of which 3 real countries said no. Now Israel is butt hurt because Palestine is recognized as a non-member state, which gives them access to, and protection by the World courts, Human Rights councils, and a strong showing of support by the majority of the world.

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I'm not even sure what to say about this. Did you learn what's going on with Iran off of a PLO flier? Yeah, those things were solely because Ahmadinejad said some words


I wasn't aware Iran had attacked any Israeli interests yet. Could they be doing it through proxies...sure, but Israel is openly attacking its neighbors both electronically, and militarily. We call these things decisive and daring...yet we call words from a leader we don't like warmongering...and radical. Israel is openly attacking its neighbors, and we have sat by and said nothing of it. We condemn nations who talk about things...hypocrites that is what we are.









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#89 Dec 02 2012 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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Really grasping on the reasoning there aren't you?

Not at all. I would think it would be more appropriate to run on a platform of peaceful resolution and domestic advancement than one of "We'll be launching lots of rockets". But those organizations aren't really interested in bridges and schools (except to fire rockets from). They're interested in maintaining power via the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

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Where was the condemnation of the IDF shelling a school?

They didn't. They attacked a Hamas mortar position NEAR a school which was then wildly exaggerated by the media into an attack ON the school. I guess the western media forgot to protect Israel on that one since you're still operating under the original story and forgot to condemn the Palestinians for setting up a military position next to a school.

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Yet in 2009 IDF used civilians to march infront of their troops

According to a report from Amnesty International based on a handful of interviews which have been questioned for legitimacy (vs Hamas coercion). And the accusation was that civilians weren't allowed to leave homes when IDF soldiers went into them, not that they were making the civilians search for booby traps.

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Sure from your perspective it could be considered terrorism, but hey during your countries own revolution your patriots and heroes were regarded as guerillas and traitors.

So what? I mean, really, is this the best defense you have? I forgot about Washington setting off that barrel full of gunpowder and nails in a British preschool. I'm not even going to bother laughing at the false equivalency there because it's irrelevant anyway.

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Why talk about what everyone already knows.

Yeah, this is always the excuse. Hours upon hours of bitching and screeds about how evil and terrible Israel is followed by "Oh, yeah, but I guess they're bad too" when cornered on Palestine. Funny, I thought you were just comparing those noble murderers to American revolutionary patriots and heroes.

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I mean have you read this story yet?

You mean this one? No, it was too buried under all that western media. I can see why you'd need to ignore all the Palestinian atrocities as "everyone just knows" when this sort of black hole exists.

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Could they be doing it through proxies...sure

Well, God forbid Israel attack those proxies since you'll go hysterical calling them noble defenders of Palestinian freedom Smiley: laugh

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Now Israel is butt hurt

Said the guy saying "Fuck Israel!" over and over again because there were consequences for Palestine abandoning the agreement for a two-party solution Smiley: laugh

Edit: That was a long post. I don't think Israel is blameless nor that they're incapable of doing wrong. I do believe the vast lion's share of blame right now lies with the Palestinian governments (both of them) which really sucks for the civilian population but that's what we're working with. I'm going to bow out with this so you're welcome to have the last word.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2012 3:48pm by Jophiel
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#90 Dec 02 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Said the guy saying "@#%^ Israel!" over and over again because there were consequences for Palestine abandoning the agreement for a two-party solution


Consequences for a nation of people that the world refused to recognize until a few days ago. Consequences for a nation of people who danced along with Israel for 40 years, and have nothing to show for it. Unless of course you consider annexed land, constriction of borders, control of the economy.

You keep saying Israel was just in their choices over the last few days. But nothing has changed.

Also your links prove my point. Those links mention nothing of the Gaza-Jericho Agreement. Or the Paris Protocols if you prefer. Hypocrites. Laughable it is that you defend it.

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Well, God forbid Israel attack those proxies since you'll go hysterical calling them noble defenders of Palestinian freedom


Yet it isn't ok for the Palestinians to attack which they deem a threat to their existances. How hypocritical of you.

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You mean this one? No, it was too buried under all that western media. I can see why you'd need to ignore all the Palestinian atrocities as "everyone just knows" when this sort of black hole exists.


Those articles are all timed well after the publication from Al Jazeera. Not to mention cleverly pieced to ignore the violations to the Paris Protocols Israel has committed. Thanks for proving my point that you read what they want you to read. Blurbs attached to an AP article from 2 days ago, laughable at best. Not even calling it a story of Israel reneging on agreements, buried in articles about Palestine reneging on agreements, Hypocrites.

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Yeah, this is always the excuse. Hours upon hours of bitching and screeds about how evil and terrible Israel is followed by "Oh, yeah, but I guess they're bad too" when cornered on Palestine. Funny, I thought you were just comparing those noble murderers to American revolutionary patriots and heroes.


I said from the start both were to blame, and both are to blame, but what you have is one side being constantly downplayed by our media, while the other can do really no wrong. Attach terrorist, and defense to a story of a school bombing and you got yourself a story made for US News. How you can deny that the West spin on Palestine is not biased is an absolute joke.

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So what? I mean, really, is this the best defense you have? I forgot about Washington setting off that barrel full of gunpowder and nails in a British preschool. I'm not even going to bother laughing at the false equivalency there because it's irrelevant anyway.


How is it false equivilency. To the powers of the world your attempt at a nation was a terrorist attack on the rightful possessions of the British Crown. Of course you choose to ignore the point because it conflicts with your argument. The fact is the entire American Revolution was a terrorist rebellion against the dominion of the King of England, The very handler that dictated what you shall do and not do, and if you were not subordinate you were disposed of.

Granted times and terminology have changed, it is the same @#%^ing thing.


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According to a report from Amnesty International based on a handful of interviews which have been questioned for legitimacy (vs Hamas coercion). And the accusation was that civilians weren't allowed to leave homes when IDF soldiers went into them, not that they were making the civilians search for booby traps.


http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf

Read it for yourself.
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Not at all. I would think it would be more appropriate to run on a platform of peaceful resolution and domestic advancement than one of "We'll be launching lots of rockets". But those organizations aren't really interested in bridges and schools (except to fire rockets from). They're interested in maintaining power via the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


So becoming a subject of another nation you consider that peace. I wonder how you would feel if China one day annexed the US. Hypocrite.



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#91 Dec 02 2012 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
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So what? I mean, really, is this the best defense you have? I forgot about Washington setting off that barrel full of gunpowder and nails in a British preschool. I'm not even going to bother laughing at the false equivalency there because it's irrelevant anyway.


How is it false equivalency. To the powers of the world your attempt at a nation was a terrorist attack on the rightful possessions of the British Crown. Of course you choose to ignore the point because it conflicts with your argument. The fact is the entire American Revolution was a terrorist rebellion against the dominion of the King of England, The very handler that dictated what you shall do and not do, and if you were not subordinate you were disposed of.

Granted times and terminology have changed, it is the same @#%^ing thing.

Don't seem to recall Colonials outwardly attacking civilian targets, which is what makes it a false equivalency. Fell free to tell me I'm wrong though, and that I'm turning a blind eye to the big, bad Israelis.
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#92 Dec 02 2012 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kastigir wrote:

Don't seem to recall Colonials outwardly attacking civilian targets, which is what makes it a false equivalency.


I'm sure had there not been 1,630 miles of Atlantic Ocean between the Colonies and the British civilians, you would have heard of more.
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#93 Dec 02 2012 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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I don't imagine people would react so nonchalantly if the U.S. suddenly decided to declare a large swath of Canada connecting Alaska to Washington open for U.S. settlement.
No, it's OK. You guys can have BC.
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#94 Dec 03 2012 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
I don't imagine people would react so nonchalantly if the U.S. suddenly decided to declare a large swath of Canada connecting Alaska to Washington open for U.S. settlement.
No one said anything when we did it as we pushed west during the 1800s.
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lolgaxe wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
I don't imagine people would react so nonchalantly if the U.S. suddenly decided to declare a large swath of Canada connecting Alaska to Washington open for U.S. settlement.
No one said anything when we did it as we pushed west during the 1800s.


The whole world was a lot more ignorant back then. There's no shortage of advocacy groups and historians who would openly denounce the westward migration at the expense of native Americans now.
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#96 Dec 03 2012 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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What if we just gave everyone in B.C. a snow-shovel for Christmas? They surely come along willingly then.
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#97 Dec 03 2012 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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What if we just gave everyone in B.C. a snow-shovel for Christmas? They surely come along willingly then.


I don't see why, they don't see near as much snow as pretty much everywhere else up here.
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#98 Dec 03 2012 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Monsieur Driftwood wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
What if we just gave everyone in B.C. a snow-shovel for Christmas? They surely come along willingly then.


I don't see why, they don't see near as much snow as pretty much everywhere else up here.
There's a hell of a lot more to BC than just Vancouver you stupid Yank.
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#99 Dec 04 2012 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Monsieur Driftwood wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
What if we just gave everyone in B.C. a snow-shovel for Christmas? They surely come along willingly then.


I don't see why, they don't see near as much snow as pretty much everywhere else up here.
There's a hell of a lot more to BC than just Vancouver you stupid Yank.


As your countryman, I take offense to that.

Yes, I know that there's more to BC than Vancouver, I made my assumption based on the travels of a friend of mine throughout the entire province, on foot/bike/hitchhiking during winter(both of the last two years, dunno about this year, she's in California this month, god knows where she'll be when winter really sets in). They see a lot of snow, especially in the mountains, but if you're talking about the majority of people in BC, they don't see as much snow as those of us in Ontario, as the vast majority of people in BC, do not, in fact, live in the mountains, or in the north.
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I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#100 Dec 04 2012 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
What if we just gave everyone in B.C. a snow-shovel for Christmas? They surely come along willingly then.
It would take more than just fancy snow shovels.

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#101 Dec 04 2012 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/un-calls-israel-open-nuclear-program-inspection-backs-054015770.html

Another show of hypocrisy from the US and Canada, and our new staunch allies the Marshall Islands and Palau. Iran you gotta bend over for UN inspectors, Israel its ok you don't need to. Good thing 174 countries don't agree with our hypocrisy.
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