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#102 Nov 08 2012 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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The honest answer is "no one who gets through the GOP primary process"


Mmm hmm. For how ethnically uniform the Republican party is it certainly has a variety of different viewpoints wrapped under it's umbrella. Seems like quite the pickle energizing all of your respective bases sufficiently while still appealing to the moderate swing voters.

Especially when compromise is such a dirty word. Not much common ground to rally on there... Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Nov 8th 2012 9:05am by someproteinguy
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#103 Nov 08 2012 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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#104 Nov 08 2012 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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The 'next' and 'previous' arrows are on the wrong side. It's confusing. Smiley: frown
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#105 Nov 08 2012 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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The GOP needs to figure out what it wants to be: A truly conservative party, be that socially and/or fiscally or Democrat Party-lite, which is what they are right now despite the laughable idea I read on this board that they are anti-women, anti-***, anti-cute puppy, anti-minorities, and anti-freshly baked chocolate chip cookie.

Personally-- and I am sure that many if not most of you here would vehemently disagree with me on this --I believe that because we are just that, the Democrat Party-lite, the voters reject us, because why vote for the diet version of liberalism when you can have all the taste and satisfaction of the real thing by voting for the actual Democratic Party.

When you have two parties which espouse the same basic brand of politics, you go with the one which is the genuine article. Is the Democratic Party moderate? Yes, it encompasses political moderates. But it is, at its' core, beholden philosophically to the far Left which has its' present anscestoral roots in Communism and anti-democratic ideals. And this is the direction it is continually pulled toward.

Whether or not conservatism is palatable to you is immaterial. What is necessary is for the voting American public to have a real choice between two-- or three --competing philosophies. That is something we have not had for some time.

Before each of you pile on, let me point out that the differences between Dubya Bush and Obama and Romney are not much. Nearly every major position each has taken has aped the other. War in the Middle East? Same. Bailouts? Same. Gitmo? Same. Universal health care coverage? Same. And so on and so forth. The Democratic Party just does it better.

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#106 Nov 08 2012 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Before each of you pile on, let me point out that the differences between Dubya Bush and Obama and Romney are not much. Nearly every major position each has taken has aped the other. War in the Middle East? Same. Bailouts? Same. Gitmo? Same. Universal health care coverage? Same. And so on and so forth. The Democratic Party just does it better.


I'll largely buy that. The biggest difference being with the Republicans at the moment you get the added bonus of having the government take a greater role in regulating morality; which I'd rather not have.

Also the anti-cute puppy thing needs to be dropped already, how can you guys seriously believe that? Smiley: confused

Smiley: disappointed
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#107 Nov 08 2012 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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While I disagree with Totem, I suppose it's to my advantage if the GOP follows the "We're not conservative enough!" path.

Limbaugh's "soul searching" today led him to decide that Latinos don't vote Democratic because of immigration, they vote Democratic because they're all lazy welfare junkies who want free stuff. And then the GOP wonders why putting Marco Rubio on a stage isn't enough to pick up the Hispanic vote.

Edited, Nov 8th 2012 12:43pm by Jophiel
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#108 Nov 08 2012 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wrote a post elsewhere about Hispanics and the GOP and may as well get a free +1 by pasting it here.

1) Obama will likely aggressively seek immigration reform this term. The GOP will either be the guys who blocked it or the guys who facilitate giving Democrats a big win with Latinos.

(2) Conservatives seem legitimately befuddled when they trot a minority out on stage before a sea of white people and that doesn't magically make things better. Romney was using "self deportation" as an immigration platform, making dog-whistle welfare attacks, talking about the "47%" of welfare and government benefit moochers and leeches, and saying he'd reverse Obama's immigration enforcement policies. Then he loses minorities in huge numbers and... "But we had Rubio and Rice and Martinez on a stage! What else could they want?"

(3) Number 2 doesn't even address the rank-and-file members of the GOP who press for Constitutional amendments against "anchor babies", "English as National Language" laws, compare undocumented aliens to rapists and child molesters because "They broke the law!", call for barbed wire fences and machine gun nests along the border, think "Put them all in cattle cars and send them to Mexico" is an immigration policy, ID laws treating Hispanics as second-class citizens, etc.

(4) The GOP underwent a campaign to actively disenfranchise minority voters in many states. Conservatives are putting up billboards in minority neighborhoods threatening arrest if the people vote without (legally unnecessary) ID and there's a question of why they're losing votes? GOP allies are sending fliers out to minority voters giving incorrect voting dates and locations and then people wonder why the GOP got 7%? No one else sees the dissonance there?

(5) Immigration isn't the silver bullet that will bridge the rift between Latinos and the GOP. The GOP won't reap tons of free votes based just on religion: Latino Catholicism isn't Italian, Irish or Polish Catholicism and there's a stronger tilt towards social justice and familial compassion as opposed to sin guilt and adherence to dogma. Hostility to immigration is just one piece of a much larger and systemic issue and, until it's addressed in full, trotting out Rubio or Martinez will be rightfully seen as tokenism.
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#109 Nov 08 2012 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
Totem wrote:
The GOP needs to figure out what it wants to be: A truly conservative party, be that socially and/or fiscally or Democrat Party-lite, which is what they are right now despite the laughable idea I read on this board that they are anti-women, anti-***, anti-cute puppy, anti-minorities, and anti-freshly baked chocolate chip cookie.


I think the GOP's problem is that they cater to those "fringe" issues voters in order to secure their votes, when in order to win moderates they should outright reject those ideas. While maybe it won't inspire as many conservatives to the polls, at the same time the GOP is going to have those "fringe" votes anyway. If anything, giving the crazier candidates (Bachman, Ron Paul, Herman Cain, etc.) such a long & drawn out primary, coupled with the rise of the tea party, was to the benefit of the Democrats. Obama's attack adds on Romney ended up being the less crazier versions of the attacks on Romney during the primary made by his own party.

Joph wrote:
(2) Conservatives seem legitimately befuddled when they trot a minority out on stage before a sea of white people and that doesn't magically make things better. Romney was using "self deportation" as an immigration platform, making dog-whistle welfare attacks, talking about the "47%" of welfare and government benefit moochers and leeches, and saying he'd reverse Obama's immigration enforcement policies. Then he loses minorities in huge numbers and... "But we had Rubio and Rice and Martinez on a stage! What else could they want?"


Newt said something the other day about inclusion. Inclusion isn't inviting minorities to the table, it's having them there in the first place. Given the changing electorate, the party of old rich white men needs to adapt or die.



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#110 Nov 08 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Interesting and provocative post, Jo. Unquestionably, the GOP is as scattered on immigration as Romney was on nearly every issue. How to fix that? I don't know, but at its' present state, our national immigration policy is in shambles. I personally think that an agreement with Mexico where our industries are given greater lattitude to operate there for greater access of their populace to our working markets or some varient of that is a good starting place.

In the meantime, deport illegals by placing them on a plane and sending them on a one-way trip to the farthest reaches of the Yucitan peninsula is sound policy. Hey, don't mock it! That particular policy was VERY effective at stopping recidivist illegals from using the revolving door up until Mexico complained and got Texas to stop.

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#111Totem, Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 1:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I dunno, Omega. Fringe issues like the Democrat's fixation on *** rights? In terms of the total populace, they only make up perhaps 4% of the total, yet domminate the discussion. If there was ever a "fringe" group, gays would be it. There are multitudes of other larger groups or special interests who beleive their "rights" are being infringed upon, who get not nearly the love that the LGBT crowd gets.
#112 Nov 08 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Unquestionably, the GOP is as scattered on immigration as Romney was on nearly every issue. How to fix that? I don't know, but at its' present state, our national immigration policy is in shambles. I personally think that an agreement with Mexico where our industries are given greater lattitude to operate there for greater access of their populace to our working markets or some varient of that is a good starting place.


Or you could just go to talk to different Hispanic populations, ask them how they want the law reformed, and then do that.

Edited, Nov 8th 2012 11:33am by someproteinguy
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#113 Nov 08 2012 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I dunno, Omega. Fringe issues like the Democrat's fixation on *** rights? In terms of the total populace, they only make up perhaps 4% of the total, yet domminate the discussion. If there was ever a "fringe" group, gays would be it. There are multitudes of other larger groups or special interests who beleive their "rights" are being infringed upon, who get not nearly the love that the LGBT crowd gets.


Not understanding that *** marriage isn't a "4% of the population" issue that only *** people care about is the primary reason this election was lost.

Anyway, from a strategy point of view the GOP is ****** if they're relying on winning these demographics. They should rely on turning out more voters with real candidates, and narrow their platform of some of the crazier ******** that has no chance of ever becoming law.

You won on guns, you won on taxes, you lost on prayer in schools, you lost on gays, you lost on debt and spending issues.

People want lower taxes and more services and candidates who look like the image they hold of themselves. It's not rocket science.
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#114 Nov 08 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Totem wrote:
Before each of you pile on, let me point out that the differences between Dubya Bush and Obama and Romney are not much. Nearly every major position each has taken has aped the other. War in the Middle East? Same. Bailouts? Same. Gitmo? Same. Universal health care coverage? Same. And so on and so forth. The Democratic Party just does it better.


I'll largely buy that. The biggest difference being with the Republicans at the moment you get the added bonus of having the government take a greater role in regulating morality; which I'd rather not have.

Also the anti-cute puppy thing needs to be dropped already, how can you guys seriously believe that? Smiley: confused

Smiley: disappointed
The differences in platform on social issues are huge - in fact in many cases they're polar opposites. And with every issue the Republicans come down on the opposite side of the social group that is being affected by any change to policy. No wonder they lose elections.

Economically, Republicans want to cut taxes, Dems want to raise taxes - Austerity vs stimulus.

On foreign policy, even energy and the environment I could agree the platforms have similarities. Healthcare - no. Bush only simplified and pushed forward a health care plan that the Clinton administration created. Since Bush has been out of office the Republicans have made it very clear they oppose Universal Health Care.





Edited, Nov 8th 2012 8:45pm by Elinda
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#115 Nov 08 2012 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Interesting and provocative post, Jo. Unquestionably, the GOP is as scattered on immigration as Romney was on nearly every issue. How to fix that? I don't know, but at its' present state, our national immigration policy is in shambles.

But that's just it, it's not all immigration.

Who is the most actively revered figure in Latino Catholicism? It's not Jesus, it's Mary. The most successful Protestant missionary movements in Central and South America have been ones that took on a Marian theology. These Hispanics aren't as taken by Italian-style guilt and threats of **** for sinning or Polish-style stoicism, they're attracted to Marian ideals of love, compassion, helping the downtrodden, caring for the weak, etc. And that attitude isn't purely a religious one but one that has become cultural.

Republican conservatism doesn't fit. Conservative ideals of "You should be charitable but the government shouldn't be" is like being told "Well, you should give but the Church as an institution isn't going to give anything to the poor. You do that yourself." The Republican stance on immigration (such as there is one) is hostile to those ideals. It splits families and attacks the poorest and most vulnerable. Attacks on welfare, social services, unemployment, etc are much the same.

That's absolutely not to say that they are not hard working or want to be on those programs. But rather their philosophy is that the programs should be there and should be strong. Democrats support that idea more than Republicans do.

I find it interesting because I've always subscribed to the same myth the GOP does, that if you just smoothed out immigration, Hispanics would culturally become good socially conservative Republicans. Catholicism was always the keystone of that argument. But I was looking at it through the lens of my own Polish Catholic "Keep quiet and get back to work; you're a good Catholic by working hard and following the rules" upbringing. And I think most Republicans expect all the other Papists to follow the same sort of European rules (along with the Italian guilt theology) and I don't think it holds.

I'll footnote by saying I'm glossing over very Democratic aspects of European Catholicism as well since they are somewhat irrelevant to my greater point.
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#116 Nov 08 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Economically, Republicans want to cut taxes, Dems want to raise taxes - Austerity vs stimulus.


I bet if you look at the total amount of money collected in taxes and total government expenditures of a Democrat and Republican budget plan they'd be within a couple % of each other on both ends. That's hardly a difference.

Elinda wrote:
Healthcare - no. Bush only simplified and pushed forward a health care plan that the Clinton administration created. Since Bush has been out of office the Republicans have made it very clear they oppose Universal Health Care.


Didn't we already do the Obama stole Romneycare from the Republicans and applied it nationwide thing? Granted they've hardened their stance since 5 years ago, but still...

Social issues are a killer though. Smiley: frown

Edited, Nov 8th 2012 11:59am by someproteinguy
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#117 Nov 08 2012 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Economically, Republicans want to cut taxes, Dems want to raise taxes - Austerity vs stimulus.


I bet if you look at the total amount of money collected in taxes and total government expenditures of a Democrat and Republican budget plan they'd be within a couple % of each other on both ends. That's hardly a difference.
Nor should it be. Incremental change is all one administration can pull off (a couple %). The party in power, if they're effective at all, will push that little incremental change in their direction.

People vote for which direction they want to try and get the pendulum swinging. Our government is designed to keep it from swinging too much in any direction.

Obama and Romney were hardly preaching similar economic strategies - yet both were supposedly representative of party platform.
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#118 Nov 08 2012 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Even if the GOP itself isn't fundamentally anti-***, anti-woman, anti-color, anti-poor, etc., that honestly doesn't matter when we're talking about voting. What matters is the perception.

As a *** man, I can't support the GOP's ruling stance on *** rights (and I define ruling stance in terms of majority--most opposition to *** right laws comes from the right, and the right is left is most active in fighting for them). That's not universal amongst all Republicans, or all Democrats, but it's a very, very strong correlation.

I'd also imagine that many of those politicians do imagine they're opposing it for reasons other than "teh *** is icky." Most of them are probably convinced that they are not homophobic. I happen to disagree, of course. Thing is, either way, I don't care.

I'm obviously going to side with the party that is actively trying to give me, and other groups like me, rights and protections. Not the party that is doing everything it can to ensure that doesn't happen. Even if you believe that we aren't a disenfranchised group, it doesn't matter. We obviously believe that.

Repeat this for all those "fringe" groups and it's no surprise the GOP is struggling. Even if you actually believe the GOP's policy aren't anti-whatever, that actually makes no difference. The point is that those groups feel abandoned by your party, and they aren't going to support you as long as that continues. That's what it comes down to.

If it's simply a perception issue, than your job should be exceedingly simple--prove that those groups are important to you, a part of your central platform. That's what the Dems have been doing for decades now. The GOP hasn't been--they've failed miserably in maintaining their image if they actually aren't the party of wealthy white men.
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#119 Nov 08 2012 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, Omega. Fringe issues like the Democrat's fixation on *** rights? In terms of the total populace, they only make up perhaps 4% of the total, yet domminate the discussion. If there was ever a "fringe" group, gays would be it. There are multitudes of other larger groups or special interests who beleive their "rights" are being infringed upon, who get not nearly the love that the LGBT crowd gets.


The GOP can't be the party of exclusion & win the Presidency any longer. The majority of the voting populace is for equality; racial equality, gender equality, tax equality, religious equality, & equal rights for gays. Running on a platform of opposing these things, or pandering to the demographic that do, is no longer a winning strategy.

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#120 Nov 08 2012 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
People vote for which direction they want to try and get the pendulum swinging. Our government is designed to keep it from swinging too much in any direction.

Obama and Romney were hardly preaching similar economic strategies - yet both were supposedly representative of party platform.


And I totally understand that; a large disruptive change is hardly beneficial to anyone. But given the amount of time they spend bickering over relatively minor changes you'd think the world was going to end or something. Smiley: rolleyes

Besides, the Republicans are the ones who want to raise my taxes. Smiley: bah
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#121 Nov 08 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Fringe issues like the Democrat's fixation on *** rights?


Actually, I hear more about *** rights (or the denial thereof) from religious Republicans. Democrats aren't fixated on the issue, they just don't take a step back in fear and disgust when asked about it. Republicans made the denial of *** rights, cleverly hidden under the illusion of "protecting marriage", central to their platform. It backfired, because while a lot of folks want to cite small percentages of the population actually being *** and an even smaller percentage as being affected by the denial of marriage equality, the issue is far broader than just our minority group. It's a long history of hatred in very general terms towards all minority groups throughout our short history in America. It's racism. It's misogyny. It's bigotry. And, it's rampant.

It's just our turn to push back, that's all.
#122 Nov 08 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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HA! I think I know the girl in this picture (it's from Gainesville, which I left in September). I kinda want to post it to her wall... but I already ****** off her husband and father-in-law, so perhaps not Smiley: grin
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#123 Nov 08 2012 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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#124 Nov 08 2012 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Yep just what I figured. The republican party is full of drama queens.

Edit: I absolutely love the look in the little girls eyes in this image. Smiley: laugh

Edited, Nov 8th 2012 4:32pm by Criminy
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#125 Nov 08 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I love how everyone is able to imply that all Republicans want to take away women's rights, deport everyone who isn't blond, wage endless war, etc. Believe it or not, there are smart, articulate, passionate, caring people on both sides of the aisle.

The biggest successes in American history depended on bipartisan support and compromise; this constant us versus them is what drives politicians further and further from the center, stalemates the government, and weakens this country.

Both Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty of the type of demagoguery that drives people apart: all Republicans are racists, all Democrats want welfare. Unwillingness to compromise or even accept that the other side has viable ideas will continue harming this country more than any one president from either party.
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