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#27 Nov 01 2012 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Technogeek wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
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The governor wants to build another bridge to Canada. Group of people see it as needless spending. Owners of existing bridge/tunnel don't want the competition. Together they bring this forward to make it harder to use funds to build international bridge/tunnel projects.
Actually Canada has already agreed to cover the full cost and any overages that might happen. there is literally zero cost to the state. From what I understand, it's pretty much all the owners of the current bridge.

My knowledge of this is passing, as I'm not from the area.

Edited, Nov 1st 2012 12:06am by Xsarus


Pretty much true, the owners of the current bridge are lobbying hard to keep the monopoly.
Seems like a bit of a ****-eyed situation. I understand the bridge owner paid lots of money for his unique border-crossing but I don't see where he bought the right to maintain that sole provider status. If I were a Michiganite I think I'd be voting against this.


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#28 Nov 01 2012 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
Seems backwards.

A social liberal should be pushing for greater regulation of a substance that can cause degradation of perceived healthy societal norms where as the conservative republican would be pushing for less government oversight of this naturally grown consumer product.


I think most social liberals feel that pot causes a negligible amount of degradation in society, what're you smoking?
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#29 Nov 01 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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I think that the effects of pot by itself causes positive good for society. Every pot smoker I've known has been laid back, interesting, and surprisingly productive in their own ways. They abhor violence, get along famously with everyone they meet, and don't waste energy on pointless stuff. (There have been a few slack-asses I've met too, but there will always be slackers.)

Now, the illegality of the drug at present causes damage to society, and the negatives greatly outweigh the positives at this point. Were it to be legalized, the positive column would dwarf the negatives.
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#30 Nov 01 2012 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Every pot smoker I've known has been laid back, interesting, and surprisingly productive in their own ways. They abhor violence, get along famously with everyone they meet, and don't waste energy on pointless stuff. (There have been a few slack-asses I've met too, but there will always be slackers.).

My experience has been pretty much the opposite, but I'm talking about pot heads, not the occasional smoker. Yes, they've been pretty laid back, but the only thing they seem interested in is smoking pot, talking about pot, growing pot, and finding new ways to get high off THC. They're VERY productive when it comes to these activities (I've seen people make bongs out of materials that would stump MacGyver, wax poetic about the best ways to grow different strains, and inject or bake pot into all sorts of food), but absolutely nothing else. Most of them don't really care about violence one way or the other (although they are way too relaxed to get violent), they only tend to get along with other pot heads, and they don't have the energy to waste on anything else that's not related to pot.

As said, that's just people I would describe as pot heads; those who smoke several joints a day. And I only know a few. People who smoke every once in a while? They seem perfectly normal to me.

I still don't think it should be illegal, but I haven't had anything remotely near the experiences you've described. I put it as no worse than any other "vice" and less dangerous than many others. Not my thing, but I doubt legalizing it would hurt anyone.

Edited, Nov 1st 2012 12:38pm by LockeColeMA
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#31 Nov 01 2012 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Not my thing, but I doubt legalizing it would hurt anyone.
I figure, much like alcohol and smoking, it'll lose most of it's allure once it's legal.
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#32 Nov 01 2012 at 10:56 AM Rating: Default
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Seems backwards.

A social liberal should be pushing for greater regulation of a substance that can cause degradation of perceived healthy societal norms where as the conservative republican would be pushing for less government oversight of this naturally grown consumer product.


I think most social liberals feel that pot causes a negligible amount of degradation in society, what're you smoking?
I think that is not a liberal thought but a pot-smokers thought.

I've no opinion about how good or bad it is to an individual a community or society at large. However, it's illegal. It's illegal because popular opinion way back when dictated it as such. In fact I think it was a democratic administration, under Roosevelt that made it a federal law to use or possess marijuana.

I suspect the reason that is a libs are pro-legalization is that the bulk of the baby-booming flower children of the 60/70's were or still are users.





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#33 Nov 01 2012 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
I think that the effects of pot by itself causes positive good for society.
Smiley: lolSee now this makes it only one step shy of a liberal issue. When we get to where we're proposing mandating the use of pot for the good of society, it'll be liberal.

edit - or maybe that would fall under socialized medicine.


Edited, Nov 1st 2012 7:17pm by Elinda
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#34 Nov 01 2012 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Or because we've wasted a mountain of dollars and incarcerated countless people simply for possession, while making no real progress when it comes to actually stifling distribution. Legalize it and regulate it like any other business and suddenly the harmful criminal component begins to dry up.
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#35 Nov 01 2012 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Or because we've wasted a mountain of dollars and incarcerated countless people simply for possession, while making no real progress when it comes to actually stifling distribution. Legalize it and regulate it like any other business and suddenly the harmful criminal component begins to dry up.

I'm ok with that.

I might try and grow it. My indoor/outdoor herb garden is doing quite well.
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#36 Nov 01 2012 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
Or because we've wasted a mountain of dollars and incarcerated countless people simply for possession, while making no real progress when it comes to actually stifling distribution. Legalize it and regulate it like any other business and suddenly the harmful criminal component begins to dry up.

This.

I don't think smoking has any hugely significant effect on the health of a society. I'd guess it's a minor degradation, but nowhere near what alcohol and cigarettes cause.

The prohibition of pot has doubtlessly ruined MANY more lives than its legalization ever would have. In my experience, the types of people who are going to end up potheads generally end up pot heads. I don't think fear of the law is actually stopping anyone who wants to try it from trying it.

All we've really done is increase the chances that this'll actually ruin their lives.
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#37 Nov 01 2012 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Or because we've wasted a mountain of dollars and incarcerated countless people simply for possession, while making no real progress when it comes to actually stifling distribution. Legalize it and regulate it like any other business and suddenly the harmful criminal component begins to dry up.

This.

I don't think smoking has any hugely significant effect on the health of a society. I'd guess it's a minor degradation, but nowhere near what alcohol and cigarettes cause.

The prohibition of pot has doubtlessly ruined MANY more lives than its legalization ever would have.
I'm not sure I agree with this. It's illegal. If someone is willing to try pot regardless, they're just as likely to try other things that are illegal.

I'm not sure I could be convinced that a pot heads life was ruined not because he/she smoked pot but because he/she was arrested for smoking pot.

Any individual can refrain from smoking pot. You choose to smoke pot and you're choosing to break the law.

My kid got arrested for dope. It was a misdemeanor, and he was a minor so it 'won't likely have any serious repercussions. However I think the whole episode reminded him that grown-ups have to take responsibility for their actions. Not a bad lesson all-in-all. Currently his anti-dope girlfriend is having much more success keeping him alert and dope-free than me or his father ever managed.


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#38 Nov 01 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It's illegal. If someone is willing to try pot regardless, they're just as likely to try other things that are illegal.


So everyone who speeds on the highway is just as likely to try pot, to rob a store, to commit murder?

Every person who pirates a song is going to try meth?

You're vastly oversimplifying.

The reality is that "it's illegal" is rarely a serious motivator against doing something. The repercussions are. In the case of hard drugs, the repercussions you care about are very rarely the legal ones, they're the health risks. In the case of robbing a bank, it's the fear of life in prison. Fact of the matter is that the chance of getting caught smoking is so small that it won't stop you from trying it. And as you get used to the risk, you stop thinking about it.

Even worse, as something becomes socially acceptable, you're more likely to disregard the law. Sure, if you look at the culture at large, the party line will be that it's socially unacceptable. Reality is that most things aren't so stigmatized as you move down into smaller communities. I doubt there's a high school today where pot carries any serious social stigma. Sure, being a "pot head" might, but a casual user? Nope.

I've never once had someone tell me they refused to try pot because it was illegal. I've actually never tried it, because I'm just not interested. Everyone I know who hasn't tried it hasn't tried it because they weren't interested. Most of them drank while underage. Plenty of them pirate music or videos. I'm sure all the guys, at the very least, watched **** before they were 18. At least 90% probably commit several different violations every time they drive.

Reality is that the pirating is way more likely to totally f*** up their lives than pot is. But that's not stopping anyone.

Which is why, at the end of the day, anyone curious about getting high is going to try it, anyone who isn't won't (sans peer pressure), won't. The law has literally nothing to do with it.
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#39 Nov 01 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jailing people for marijuana use disproportionately targets and harms minorities and the poor. If you want families to not get stuck in an endless cycle of poverty, it's probably a good idea not to put their father in jail for petty drug use. That's why it's a liberal issue.


Edited, Nov 1st 2012 1:24pm by trickybeck
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#40 Nov 01 2012 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Or because we've wasted a mountain of dollars and incarcerated countless people simply for possession, while making no real progress when it comes to actually stifling distribution. Legalize it and regulate it like any other business and suddenly the harmful criminal component begins to dry up.


I'm not against legalization of pot myself, but this is a potentially misleading argument. Show me some numbers on the number of people imprisoned for marijuana possession and/or sale and related crimes on the records of those convicted.

I'd be willing to bet the number of people in prison with only a single marijauna bust on their record is relatively low, and that most repeat offenders that end up in prison are also charged with other crimes.

Edited, Nov 1st 2012 1:35pm by BrownDuck
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#41 Nov 01 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
It's illegal. If someone is willing to try pot regardless, they're just as likely to try other things that are illegal.
So everyone who speeds on the highway is just as likely to try pot, to rob a store, to commit murder?

Every person who pirates a song is going to try meth?

You're vastly oversimplifying.

So are you. I'd suspect that someone willing to try pot is more likely to try some other drug just like someone who pirates music is more likely to pirate software or movies and someone who speeds is more likely to pass in the wrong lane or fail to come to complete stops at signals.
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#42 Nov 01 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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It's an interesting discussion. I've never heard anyone make the argument that Catwho did using pot is actually good for our society. Though maybe it would be a nice mellow, non-narcotic relaxant for prisoners, ADD kids or others.

I could buy the argument (with some supporting evidence) that arresting people for pot-use has an over-all negative effect on a community, but I can't buy the argument that pot being illegal only ruins individual lives. Maybe it's saved lives. Maybe the 17 year old kid that got arrested for dope was scared straight and so said 'no' to other more serious drugs or crimes. Either way breaking the law to use pot is a choice made with full knowledge of what the consequences might be.








Edited, Nov 1st 2012 9:35pm by Elinda
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#43 Nov 01 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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The belief that marijuana would benefit society is absurd, because it isn't the substance but the effect that people seek. People find numerous ways to get their stupor and anyone willing to put themselves in that state are probably not the best decision makers. Not only that, just like alcohol, people behave differently.
#44 Nov 01 2012 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Not only that, just like alcohol, people behave differently.


How does alcohol behave? When does it behave differently?

ha ha you're dumb
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#45 Nov 01 2012 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Jailing people for marijuana use disproportionately targets and harms minorities and the poor.

The latent conservative in me says the real easy solution there is "Don't smoke weed".

The fact that people are willing to be incarcerated over it is probably part of what gives me cautious pause rather than just saying "***** it, weed for everyone!"
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I've never once had someone tell me they refused to try pot because it was illegal. I've actually never tried it, because I'm just not interested. Everyone I know who hasn't tried it hasn't tried it because they weren't interested. Most of them drank while underage. Plenty of them pirate music or videos. I'm sure all the guys, at the very least, watched **** before they were 18.

Wait... watching **** is illegal there?

Edited, Nov 1st 2012 2:57pm by Jophiel
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#46 Nov 01 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
It's illegal. If someone is willing to try pot regardless, they're just as likely to try other things that are illegal.
So everyone who speeds on the highway is just as likely to try pot, to rob a store, to commit murder?

Every person who pirates a song is going to try meth?

You're vastly oversimplifying.

So are you. I'd suspect that someone willing to try pot is more likely to try some other drug just like someone who pirates music is more likely to pirate software or movies and someone who speeds is more likely to pass in the wrong lane or fail to come to complete stops at signals.


Yeah. I also be that you'll find almost all heavy drug users fall within the subset of drinkers (or even heavy drinkers). We don't ban alcohol because we worry that it makes someone "more likely" to use heroin.

All you've done is present a correlation. Yeah, I bet the vast majority of people hooked on heroin are open to smoking pot, have smoked it, do smoke it, etc. Doesn't mean smoking pot leads to it.

Is someone who smokes pot statistically more likely to do hard drugs? Sure. But that's not necessarily interesting in any particular way. It's as unsurprising as the fact that meat eaters are statistically more likely to eat dog than vegetarians are.

In my opinion, you're pointing at a symptom, not the cause. I don't think smoking pot leads to doing heroin. I do believe that something that could lead someone to smoke pot could lead them to do heroin. But I don't think making pot illegal would help there. Particularly because I seriously doubt fear of "the law" is going to be sufficient to ever stop someone on that path. Chances are (imo), someone who is on it already feels so alienated from society that the concept of law itself isn't something they're going to invest themselves in.

What I think making pot illegal does is force them to get used to hiding from society on the path to a worse addiction, making it even less likely that they'll seek help when they actually need it. The only thing I see the war on drugs doing is alienating people who desperately need help more and more, by ensuring they're as terrified as possible to seek treatment.

This is obviously a lot of conjecture, but I do believe it.

[EDIT]

Not that anyone would get in trouble for it, but technically accessing a **** site while under 18 is defrauding someone to commit a criminal act, because distributing to minors is illegal. But that was my point--it's against the law, but no one cares.

As for the poor issue, statistically white middle class+ people are vastly more likely to use and sell all drugs than the poor and minorities are. But statistically, nearly all the people in jail on drug charges are black and poor. According to a professor I had in college, who wrote some papers on the subject, it comes entirely down to two factors.

1. Space. Most minorities and poor live in small homes, possibly with extended family, and have no where they can go in the house to take drugs in secret. On average, a black kid isn't going to be able to light up a joint at home without his mom finding out. This leads to FAR more drug usage outside the home, in public areas, which drastically increases the chance of detection.

2. Increased police density. My town has a fair number of people (still fairly small--high school classes of 350 or so), but there's a lot of land. Kids here all smoked in the woods (and a lot of adults do too, to be fair). So besides the occasional cop who'd go in to check for kids, it was relatively safe to smoke. You light up in a city alley, and you have no clue how close you are to the nearest cop.

Edited, Nov 1st 2012 4:05pm by idiggory
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#47 Nov 01 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah. I also be that you'll find almost all heavy drug users fall within the subset of drinkers (or even heavy drinkers). We don't ban alcohol because we worry that it makes someone "more likely" to use heroin.

All you've done is present a correlation. Yeah, I bet the vast majority of people hooked on heroin are open to smoking pot, have smoked it, do smoke it, etc. Doesn't mean smoking pot leads to it.

I wasn't trying to present much more of an argument beyond noting that your appeal of "Do speeders all become AXE MURDERER RAPISTS!?" was retarded and wildly misrepresenting what Elinda was saying.

Quote:
Not that anyone would get in trouble for it, but technically accessing a **** site while under 18 is defrauding someone to commit a criminal act, because distributing to minors is illegal.

The criminal burden there would fall on the distributor. Not that this matters for the pot debate, it's just one of those pedant things for me. Like people saying it's illegal for a 14 yr old to have *** with a 19 yr old when it's not (although the flip obviously is).

Quote:
As for the poor issue, statistically white middle class+ people are vastly more likely to use and sell all drugs than the poor and minorities are. But statistically, nearly all the people in jail on drug charges are black and poor.

Which may be a wonderful reason to revisit how we prosecute crimes but isn't really a good reason to start legalizing crimes.

Edited, Nov 1st 2012 3:16pm by Jophiel
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#48 Nov 01 2012 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
The belief that marijuana would benefit society is absurd, because it isn't the substance but the effect that people seek.


Same with Valium, Prozac, Xanax, Ativan, et al. I guess those don't benefit the people who use them correctly either, do they?
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#49 Nov 01 2012 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:

Not that anyone would get in trouble for it, but technically accessing a **** site while under 18 is defrauding someone to commit a criminal act, because distributing to minors is illegal. But that was my point--it's against the law, but no one cares.

As for the poor issue, statistically white middle class+ people are vastly more likely to use and sell all drugs than the poor and minorities are. But statistically, nearly all the people in jail on drug charges are black and poor. According to a professor I had in college, who wrote some papers on the subject, it comes entirely down to two factors.

1. Space. Most minorities and poor live in small homes, possibly with extended family, and have no where they can go in the house to take drugs in secret. On average, a black kid isn't going to be able to light up a joint at home without his mom finding out. This leads to FAR more drug usage outside the home, in public areas, which drastically increases the chance of detection.

2. Increased police density. My town has a fair number of people (still fairly small--high school classes of 350 or so), but there's a lot of land. Kids here all smoked in the woods (and a lot of adults do too, to be fair). So besides the occasional cop who'd go in to check for kids, it was relatively safe to smoke. You light up in a city alley, and you have no clue how close you are to the nearest cop.

Edited, Nov 1st 2012 4:05pm by idiggory
These two factors aren't unique to smoking pot. The problem you present is a systemic one not one of pot use.

Do you think that if/when pot is legalized there will be a corresponding reduction in incarceration? Do you think that reduction will be measurably greater for the poor and/or minorities?
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#50 Nov 01 2012 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
This is such a strange concept to me. We never have any of this stuff.
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#51 Nov 01 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Like I've said before whenever this debate comes up - I won't smoke it, but I think it should be legal. The war on drugs is a waste of money. People are never going to stop getting 'altered' in some form or fashion. Quick making such a big deal out of it.

Now, time to open my bottle of wine!
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