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GOP candidate: "God Intended" Pregnancies from RapeFollow

#102 Oct 25 2012 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
The day that men figure out how to get pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you can have a legitimate say in abortion rights. Until then, get the @#%^ out of my uterus.

Cute sentiment but that's not the way government works.
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#103 Oct 25 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Sir Xsarus wrote:
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The day that men figure out how to get pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you can have a legitimate say in abortion rights. Until then, get the @#%^ out of my uterus.
that's not a reasonable argument though. We collectively have a say in laws, and trying to restrict this is @#%^ing stupid.


I suppose that's true. My point was that life isn't fair. Alma was basically saying that men are affected by abortions and it's not fair that men have to pay child support when they don't want to, so men should have a say as well. There are lots of factors in life that are unfair, especially when you factor for gender inequalities. Men get the crapshoot a fair amount of the time, usually in regards to parenting issues. Women get the crapshoot a lot more often though. And I'm not advocating that men should have absolutely no say in abortion laws. What frustrates me is when a bunch of old white men collectively and slowly chip away at reproduction rights. There is no other medical procedure besides abortion, that gets such attention by lawmakers. Now I'm not going to play dumb and pretend that I don't understand why people oppose abortion. If you don't like it, fine. Don't get one. Leave medical decisions up to patients and their doctors, not legislators.
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#104 Oct 26 2012 at 3:07 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You never addressed why the discussion itself wouldn't be valuable, which is specifically why it's not necessary for me to tell you why you're wrong.

Well, given that no one else has made a real counter-position on the rights of elected representatives, I guess I won the debate Smiley: laugh

As an Australian, I don't perceive the USA to be a representative democracy, because not all citizens vote in elections. Heck if I understand things, very often only a minority of people in an electorate vote in an election. I don't reguard the non-casting of a vote as an abstaining vote. I reguard it as an abrogation of the rights and responsibilities of that citizen. That citizen is unrepresented, and not participant in a democracy.

Hence I don't really reguard the elected officials in the USA as being representative of their electorates, or of having any really meaningful mandates in carrying out their policies.

In Australia it's true that the ignorant and disenfranchised are easily swayed into voting against their own interests. And often vote in incredibly parochial, selfish and short sighted ways. And yet overall, perhaps because the rights of these people need to be addressed by campaigning politicians, Australia manages to balance it's budget over economic cycles while overall maintaining better rights and responsibilities for people who've fallen into a low point of their life cycle. Australia is also the easiest country to set up a business, and like all robust capital...(capitalisms?), big business gets just as much a disproportionate sway over politics as in America.


Edited, Oct 26th 2012 5:18am by Aripyanfar
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#105Almalieque, Posted: Oct 26 2012 at 5:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The day women can impregnate themselves without a man, will be the day that your request would make sense.
#106 Oct 26 2012 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Really? So now you're unable to quantify "significant" in context?

No, it's unquantified because you provide no numbers, just vague assertions under the pretext of you being correct. Give me a solid figure and we can quibble over whether or not it counts as "significant". There was an uptick in black voter participation (+2%) in 2008 and an uptick in black Democratic votes (+6%). But there was an uptick in most demographics for both of the same things. More youths voted and more youths voted for Obama. More college-educated people voted and more voted for Obama. About an extra eight million people voted in 2008 vs 2004 and Obama won by a larger percentage than Bush did in 2004 (i.e., more people, more Dem share).

If you want to claim that a "significant" number of people voted based on race, you need to do more to prove your point than just say it.
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If you took the amount of people who voted for President Obama simply because he was black and converted their votes to Hillary Clinton during the primaries, then Hillary would have won.

Thanks for the unsubstantiated "fact", Gbaji.
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#107 Oct 26 2012 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Quote:
The day that men figure out how to get pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you can have a legitimate say in abortion rights. Until then, get the @#%^ out of my uterus.
that's not a reasonable argument though. We collectively have a say in laws, and trying to restrict this is @#%^ing stupid.


I suppose that's true. My point was that life isn't fair.
No?

Quote:
Alma was basically saying that men are affected by abortions and it's not fair that men have to pay child support when they don't want to, so men should have a say as well. There are lots of factors in life that are unfair, especially when you factor for gender inequalities. Men get the crapshoot a fair amount of the time, usually in regards to parenting issues. Women get the crapshoot a lot more often though. And I'm not advocating that men should have absolutely no say in abortion laws. What frustrates me is when a bunch of old white men collectively and slowly chip away at reproduction rights. There is no other medical procedure besides abortion, that gets such attention by lawmakers. Now I'm not going to play dumb and pretend that I don't understand why people oppose abortion. If you don't like it, fine. Don't get one. Leave medical decisions up to patients and their doctors, not legislators.


Whining, self-pity and hatin on the white man is not really going to help your cause, Sunshine.
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#108 Oct 26 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
The day that men figure out how to get pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you can have a legitimate say in abortion rights. Until then, get the @#%^ out of my uterus.
The whole "I've got the uterus, I make the rules" stance is cute and all, but if you're not willing to actually make the rules then it's nothing more than a tshirt.
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#109 Oct 26 2012 at 8:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Meh, let them ( women) make the rules. Is it that hard not to stick you dick in someone that doesn't share your political values? Problem solved, no political drama needed.

You swinging kids I swear... Smiley: disappointed


Edited, Oct 26th 2012 8:19am by someproteinguy
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#110 Oct 26 2012 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Meh, let them make the rules. Is it that hard not to stick you dick in someone that doesn't share your political values? Problem solved, no political drama needed.

You swinging kids I swear... Smiley: disappointed
What about God's gifts?
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#111 Oct 26 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
What about God's gifts?


Like I said (probably really ambiguously as I reread things) it's her decision, let her decide. Except in some rare bizarre case where a gal is holding a gun to a guys head or something, the guy generally has a lot of leeway in deciding whether or not he wants to have sex with someone. I mean really we still have plenty of control of the situation even if you were to completely take away our say in an abortion.

Edited, Oct 26th 2012 8:08am by someproteinguy
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#112 Oct 26 2012 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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If a woman is going to abort a man's child against his wishes, does he really want her to be the mother of his children anyway?

I'm actually leaning toward agreement with the sentiment that marriage is what gives a man (or woman) legal recourse into the decision over to abort or not abort. Until they've got that little piece of paper from the state that shows they're in a legally binding contract for the purposes of income, taxes, procreation, healthcare, yadda yadda, the non-pregnant party has little to say in the matter of whether she should keep an accidental pregnancy. (Now, if they were both trying for a baby outside of wedlock, it's a bit different. But I never understood wanting to have kids with a partner without the accompanying marriage. Not my thing, I guess.)

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#113 Oct 26 2012 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
Almalieque wrote:
Pig wrote:
For a worthless term like "significant", I'm sure that's true.

Good job giving me credit for something I didn't say. I'm pretty sure that was Joph.

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Pig wrote:
However, there are ways around this. Wear a condom every time. It's not 100% effective, sure. But it drastically cuts down on pregnancy and STDs, and then you don't have to worry about whether the women you sleep with are lying to you when they say they're on birth control
The same can be said towards women who want an abortion. There's no difference.

Sure there is. Men can't lie about whether or not they're on birth control, since you guys don't have one of those yet. Smiley: tongue I'm almost surprised you didn't catch that that was tongue in cheek. Almost. Seriously though, like protein said it's not that difficult to find out before hand if you agree with your partner on abortion or child rearing BEFORE you sleep with them. I won't sleep with someone unless I know that they are okay with abortion, even though I'm not 100% sure I would have one if I was in that position.

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Pig wrote:
Also, I'm pretty sure that terminating your parental rights is a way of getting out of paying child support.
I would guess that isn't true. If that were the case, child support wouldn't be much of an issue. Any parent complaining about paying for their child, probably doesn't care about parental rights. The only exception would be an excessive amount of money being taken away or the mother misusing the money.

Yeah i think you're pretty misguided there. There might be some loopholes there, and I don't think it's something that is widely known about. But I've heard of people terminating their parental rights before, both men and women. People complain about having their hard earned money taken away regardless of what it's for. And yeah, it's pretty damn likely that if the parents don't get along well, the parent paying child support is probably going to bitch about paying the other child support, no matter how much they love their kid. This is human nature.

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Pig wrote:
However, it is also unfair to ask a woman to act as a human incubator for a child she does not want
It's also unfair to the child.

The child is not a person. It is a human life, sure. But it is not a person. The woman is a person, and has legal rights.

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Pig wrote:
It is also unfair that women make less money in comparison to men, it is unfair that we have to deal with stupid reports from CNN citing studies that claim that women vote with their periods, and it is unfair that we don't have a single payer health care system in this country
Unrelated issues.

It's called an analogy dip sh*t.

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Pig wrote:
The day that men figure out how to get pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you can have a legitimate say in abortion rights. Until then, get the @#%^ out of my uterus.

The day women can impregnate themselves without a man, will be the day that your request would make sense.

We're working on it.
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#114 Oct 26 2012 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually leaning toward agreement with the sentiment that marriage is what gives a man (or woman) legal recourse into the decision over to abort or not abort.


Law isn't a matter of the opinions of laymen. You have to be a judge to get that honour - and even then, Dworkin will hate you. I assume you mean that it should be the deciding factor.
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#115Almalieque, Posted: Oct 26 2012 at 3:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Do you believe it to be true? Why or why not?
#116 Oct 26 2012 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
I hate to use the media as a source, because it isn't valid, but

Almalieque wrote:
we both know that isn't plausible to get an accurate number of who voted for who and why.

This is where you should realize meaningful discussion cannot occur. You made a quantitative assertion without quantitative evidence. You think it might be true, and you want it to be true, but you have no way to show that it is. There's nothing meaningful you can say on the subject.
#117 Oct 26 2012 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Do you believe it to be true? Why or why not?

No. Because the shifts in numbers don't support a groundswell on any singular basis.
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#118 Oct 26 2012 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
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Pig wrote:
Sure there is. Men can't lie about whether or not they're on birth control, since you guys don't have one of those yet. Smiley: tongue I'm almost surprised you didn't catch that that was tongue in cheek. Almost. Seriously though, like protein said it's not that difficult to find out before hand if you agree with your partner on abortion or child rearing BEFORE you sleep with them. I won't sleep with someone unless I know that they are okay with abortion, even though I'm not 100% sure I would have one if I was in that position.


Because you don't know how you will react until you're in their shoes. I'm not going to be a hypocrite. It's easy for me to say, "No abortion!" because I'm not in that situation where a woman is pregnant. If you're practicing "safer sex" and there is an unwanted pregnancy, that can totally throw you for a loop. Standing from the sideline, I can say "Pffft. that's your fault, you should have worn two condoms, pre-gamed and pulled out!"

Pig wrote:
Yeah i think you're pretty misguided there. There might be some loopholes there, and I don't think it's something that is widely known about. But I've heard of people terminating their parental rights before, both men and women. People complain about having their hard earned money taken away regardless of what it's for. And yeah, it's pretty damn likely that if the parents don't get along well, the parent paying child support is probably going to bitch about paying the other child support, no matter how much they love their kid. This is human nature.


Pretty sure that I'm not misguided. Once again, if it were that easy, there wouldn't be any issues. I did a quick wiki-search and the bottom line is the person who does not have custody must pay the parent with custody according to the guidelines provided by each state.

Pig wrote:
The child is not a person. It is a human life, sure. But it is not a person. The woman is a person, and has legal rights.


That makes no sense. If it's not a person, then why are you having an abortion?

Pig wrote:

It's called an analogy dip sh*t.


Smiley: lol Those were supposed to be analogies? Sounded like a rant. Maybe you should be more metaphorical and less literal, you know, kind of like an analogy?

Pig wrote:
We're working on it.

So, like I said, unless the woman used her own bone marrow to create her own child, then men have a say.
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#119gbaji, Posted: Oct 26 2012 at 5:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I set it aside because it's not the most important factor when asking if congress has "the right" to make such legislative decisions. Trying to apply a criteria for legislation which requires that you may only legislate on issues which affect you directly is absurd. How many members of congress are homeless? Yet no one insists that they can't pass legislation regarding homeless shelters, right? How many members of congress are illegal immigrants? Yet we expect them to pass laws regarding illegal immigration, right? How many are members of a foreign nations army (or active members of our own military)? Yet we give them the right to declare acts of war.
#120 Oct 26 2012 at 5:56 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I hate to use the media as a source, because it isn't valid, but

Almalieque wrote:
we both know that isn't plausible to get an accurate number of who voted for who and why.

This is where you should realize meaningful discussion cannot occur. You made a quantitative assertion without quantitative evidence. You think it might be true, and you want it to be true, but you have no way to show that it is. There's nothing meaningful you can say on the subject.

That's absurd, unrealistic and unpractical. Just because something is intangible doesn't mean it can't be given a measure. That's like telling someone that they really don't love you because love isn't quantitative, so therefore a meaningless subject.

Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Do you believe it to be true? Why or why not?

No. Because the shifts in numbers don't support a groundswell on any singular basis.


Of course it doesn't, because isn't a concrete fact. I wasn't asking if it were a groundswell on any singular basis. You're simply stating a fact on why my claim can't be absolute. The simple fact that you state "any singular basis" supports that you're talking in generalities. I'm specifically talking about President Obama and Hillary Clinton during the 2008 primaries.

You can't logically say "no" then say "any singular basis". That's a contradiction. If your answer is "no", then you are favoring the belief that the number of people who voted for President Obama simply because of his physical appearance, skin color, age, speaking ability or any other irrelevant trait wasn't high enough to make a difference. At that point, your accusation is no different than mine because you are unable to substantiate it.
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#121gbaji, Posted: Oct 26 2012 at 5:58 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So you opposed the passage of Obamacare, right? Cause we should leave medical decisions to patients and doctors and not legislators? You get that when we pass these huge health care laws, which create tons of requirements and mandates and whatnot, we are injecting the government and its laws into our health care. Some of us argued for less government regulation of health care. We got outvoted.
#122 Oct 26 2012 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Your analogies are pointless. You're trying to argue that transient statuses are the same things as gender/biological identities.

It's fundamentally flawed at the onset.

Also, you're wrong. The question at hand isn't whether or not a severe statistical imbalance in elected representatives to the representative population isn't acceptable in all issues, it's a question of whether or not it's an issue in one specific case.

So, yes, setting aside the most important factor--that they'd be making rulings on medical procedures that they'll never have to deal with in their personal lives--is still an integral aspect of the case.

The answer to one of those is obvious. There's a reason we don't demand that people with an IQ under 60 be represented by someone else with an IQ under 60. Or that people with terminal illnesses be represented by people with terminal illnesses. Pacific Islanders make up .2% of the US population. With 435 Congressmen, that doesn't even account for a whole person. Etc.

To pretend like the argument for one group is the same as arguing for the sake of all groups is a strawman.

And that's why you're an idiot.
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#123 Oct 26 2012 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Of course it doesn't, because isn't a concrete fact. I wasn't asking if it were a groundswell on any singular basis.

No, you asked if I thought that way and why not.

Rather than get bogged into "But I asked THIS not THAT!!", I'll just say that I do not believe that race played a significant factor in Obama's election (i.e. enough to have changed the election results) and I do not believe it primarily due to lack of evidence to the contrary.
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#124 Oct 26 2012 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
That's absurd, unrealistic and unpractical. Just because something is intangible doesn't mean it can't be given a measure. That's like telling someone that they really don't love you because love isn't quantitative, so therefore a meaningless subject.

And has nothing to do with what I said.

You claimed many people voted for President Obama simply because he is black. That is a quantifiable statement. You need to prove that. You need to present a number for how many people voted for President Obama because he was black.

"Many Jews live in El Salvador." Do you see how without numbers that is a meaningless statement that's technically true--in the sense that at least one Jew lives in El Salvador)?
#125 Oct 26 2012 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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I heard that guy moved out of El Salvador.
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#126gbaji, Posted: Oct 26 2012 at 7:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) They are making rulings on medical procedures affecting the people who voted for them to represent them (and to make those very decisions). Which is precisely what we do with regard to every issue that our representatives vote on. Why is this one case magically different? You might have a point if women represented a tiny minority of voters (but they don't). And you might have a point if abortion and contraception issues were not already prevalent issues weighed and discussed in each and every election (but they are). So what is your argument? One must conclude that despite some people's assumption to the contrary, these issues are not as much the driving issues for women voters that you assume they are. The fact is that if 100% of women wanted a woman to represent them, then 100% of congress would be female (or really darn close). And if 100% of women wanted their representatives to vote for unrestricted elective abortions, then that would be the law. And if 100% of women wanted their representatives to pass legislation requiring the government to pay for all contraceptive and abortion costs, then that would be the law as well.
#127 Oct 26 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
And has nothing to do with what I said.

You claimed many people voted for President Obama simply because he is black. That is a quantifiable statement. You need to prove that. You need to present a number for how many people voted for President Obama because he was black.


If 10 people voted for President Obama, then you would have a point. Since millions of people voted, you do not have a point. You would have had to ask every single person who voted, not that less than 1/2 of 1 percent crap. Even then, how can you tell that they are telling the truth and not lying? Answer: You can't, because it isn't quantifiable. In theory, yes, in practice no.

Allegory wrote:
"Many Jews live in El Salvador." Do you see how without numbers that is a meaningless statement that's technically true--in the sense that at least one Jew lives in El Salvador)?


Note my theory vs practice comment
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#128 Oct 26 2012 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gbaji, I'm not at all interested in getting into this debate with you, because I don't feel like slamming my head into that particular brick wall at the moment.

My only point is that your argument wasn't ignoring the most important point, and that your defense for it was invalid. I don't need to tell you why this instance itself is an issue because you used flawed logic to arrive there.

It's a logical rule the terms "It is not the case that all Xs are Y" is compatible with "Some Xs are Y."

You made an assumption that it's acceptable for women not to have statistical representation by women because it's not important for other groups to have statistical representation.

That's not an argument, it's just stupid.
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#129 Oct 26 2012 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
You can't, because it isn't quantifiable. In theory, yes, in practice no.

But you have to. If you don't think it's provable, then you shouldn't have made the assertion. You said many people voted for Obama because of his race. The natural follow up is "how many?" You don't have an answer. What's more, you don't think that question can be answered.
#130 Oct 26 2012 at 9:31 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
Even then, how can you tell that they are telling the truth and not lying?

Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
You can't, because it isn't quantifiable. In theory, yes, in practice no.

But you have to. If you don't think it's provable, then you shouldn't have made the assertion. You said many people voted for Obama because of his race. The natural follow up is "how many?" You don't have an answer. What's more, you don't think that question can be answered.


It's not that I don't think, I know it can't be answered. It's impossible, that's why you're position is silly. Your theory is flawed, because it only applies to things that is measurable. You can not measure people's feelings towards anything, but that doesn't stop people from making assertions on the said feelings. Again, you claiming that love is meaningless because you can't measure it.

Actions speak louder than words. I don't have to be able to measure my "likeability" to know that person A likes me more than person B. That doesn't mean their feelings toward me is void. No, there is a difference and even though I can't measure it, doesn't take it away.

Same with the 2008 election. No one knew about President Obama. He had no impressive record. He didn't have any defined plans. Clinton had experience, plans and likeability. Then everyone talked about how great a speaker President Obama was, how young he was, his looks and possibly being the first black president. If you don't think those factors didn't play a part in his election even though people in the media blatantly admitted to it, then you're in denial.

So, next you will say that people aren't voting for the "lesser of two evils" or a person because of their political affiliation.
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#131 Oct 26 2012 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
you're insisting this is the case, but there is no evidence to back you up. There are numbers of people that voted and the like that indicate you're probably wrong, but you refuse to acknowledge them because they contradict your "gut feeling" Smiley: oyvey
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#132 Oct 26 2012 at 10:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
If you don't think those factors didn't play a part in his election even though people in the media blatantly admitted to it, then you're in denial.

In the absence of evidence, just say that anyone who doesn't hold your opinion is fooling themselves Smiley: laugh
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#133 Oct 26 2012 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
you're insisting this is the case, but there is no evidence to back you up. There are numbers of people that voted and the like that indicate you're probably wrong, but you refuse to acknowledge them because they contradict your "gut feeling" Smiley: oyvey

And the weird part is that you aren't even arguing with gbaji.
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#134 Oct 26 2012 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If you don't think those factors didn't play a part in his election even though people in the media blatantly admitted to it, then you're in denial.

In the absence of evidence, just say that anyone who doesn't hold your opinion is fooling themselves Smiley: laugh


The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.



Edited, Oct 27th 2012 12:10am by TirithRR
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#135 Oct 26 2012 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If you don't think those factors didn't play a part in his election even though people in the media blatantly admitted to it, then you're in denial.

In the absence of evidence, just say that anyone who doesn't hold your opinion is fooling themselves Smiley: laugh


I am sure there are some voters who voted based on the fact he was black, and that he had a penis, I also believe that some voters voted for Clinton because she was white, and a woman. But I hardly believe it had a majority impact. Heck Id wager some voters shied away from Clinton, because it would put Bill back in a position to indirectly form position on the country...then again maybe some voted for her because of that.

You can look back and pick apart things and probably assert them to particular singular aspects, but there is really limitless reasons you could argue for or against. In the end the candidate who possessed the most traits that their constituents found to be presidential won.
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#136 Oct 26 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I am sure there are some voters who voted based on the fact he was black, and that he had a penis

Out of something like 130,000,000 voters, I'm sure there's people who voted for him because he's black, against him because he's black, against him because he's not black enough, for him because they thought he was a secret Muslim, against him because they thought he was an open Muslim, yadda yadda yadda.

I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election.
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#137 Oct 27 2012 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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In an interesting phenomenon, conservatives might get to start complaining about ACTIVIST DOCTORS if abortions are banned except for when the mother's life is at risk. In Australia, when that was the only legal case for abortions, doctors took their inch and ran a mile. Basically enough psychiatric evidence came out of studies that showed that an unwanted pregnancy, forced to carry to term, unacceptably raised the risk of suicide, severe mental illnesses, and somatic disorders in the mother. (Let alone the raised risk of the above in the unwanted children, even when adopted into happy homes.)

So after a while, a woman wouldn't even need a letter from a psychiatrist if she wanted to terminate a pregnancy. All she had to do was tell two doctors she didn't want the child, wait a week for a cooling-off/thinking-about-it period, and then she'd get an abortion appointment. Payed for by the government.
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#138 Oct 27 2012 at 6:21 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:

Out of something like 130,000,000 voters, I'm sure there's people who voted for him because he's black, against him because he's black, against him because he's not black enough, for him because they thought he was a secret Muslim, against him because they thought he was an open Muslim, yadda yadda yadda.

I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election.


And your conclusion is no different than mine. So, you unless you can provide these "magical fictional" numbers to show that it didn't have a significant impact, then you're no different than me. We are free to have our own opinions. When I see candidates who belittle each other, the all of the sudden their once opponent is the BEST thing for the country, it's hard for me to believe that people voting because candidates follow their vision, assuming they have one.

Just looking at Romney flip flop on positions and centering himself in the final days only confirms that the candidates don't even follow their own vision. People run for office and vote for the wrong reason and I strongly believe if you remove all of those people from the scene it would be a lot less than 130,000,000 voters.

Besides, I was specifically talking about the primaries not the general election. The primary race was close enough to where I believe it would have made a decision.
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#139 Oct 27 2012 at 7:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:

And your conclusion is no different than mine. So, you unless you can provide these "magical fictional" numbers to show that it didn't have a significant impact, then you're no different than me.

Wouldn't the burden of proof be on you to provide the numbers, as you're the one who made the claim in the first place? Smiley: dubious

Edit: Also, proving a negative? Terrible logic. You claim something happened, show proof for it. Demanding that someone prove it "didn't happen" is pretty silly.

Edited, Oct 27th 2012 9:56am by LockeColeMA
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#140 Oct 27 2012 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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It is impossible to prove a negative. That's the FIRST lesson of any class in Logic. Or Debate. Or Argumentative Essays.
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#141Almalieque, Posted: Oct 27 2012 at 8:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That was my point. Funny how you don't realize it until I turn it around. How is "I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election" conceptually different than "I think those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election."
#142 Oct 27 2012 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
It is impossible to prove a negative. That's the FIRST lesson of any class in Logic. Or Debate. Or Argumentative Essays.


That was my point. Funny how you don't realize it until I turn it around. How is "I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election" conceptually different than "I think those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election."

Hint: It isn't.


Hint: It is. The latter factors can be raised and examined for their relative effects on the outcome of the election. The earlier factors are as useful to raise as theories about how aliens from alpha centauri, the alignment of the nearest quasar, and the merits of Havarti versus Edam cheese affects the outcome of the election.
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#143Almalieque, Posted: Oct 27 2012 at 10:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) In order to know that the factors singularity did not have a significant impact on the election, you would have to know the impact. Whatever way you chose to calculate the impact, the answer will equally tell you if it did or did not have an impact.
#144 Oct 27 2012 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
please tell me how you can get an accurate conclusion

Not our job. You made a claim you couldn't prove. No one here has to fix your cock up.
#145 Oct 27 2012 at 12:55 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
please tell me how you can get an accurate conclusion

Not our job. You made a claim you couldn't prove. No one here has to fix your cock up.


Learn to read. I'm not asking you to prove my claim. I'm asking to prove Jophiel's claim. So, I'll keep waiting. Unless, you're cool with not proving claims.
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#146 Oct 27 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
I'll keep waiting.

Don't hold your breath. Hint: Joph's claim wasn't that blackness was or was not a significant factor in the previous election, it's that you had no evidence as to how much it played a role. And it remains proven until you... present evidence.
#147 Oct 27 2012 at 1:31 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I'll keep waiting.

Don't hold your breath. Hint: Joph's claim wasn't that blackness was or was not a significant factor in the previous election, it's that you had no evidence as to how much it played a role. And it remains proven until you... present evidence.


Again, learn to read.

Jophiel wrote:
I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election.

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Almalieque wrote:

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#148 Oct 27 2012 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I'll keep waiting.
Don't hold your breath. Hint: Joph's claim wasn't that blackness was or was not a significant factor in the previous election, it's that you had no evidence as to how much it played a role. And it remains proven until you... present evidence.
Again, learn to read.
Jophiel wrote:
I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election.
I also wrote:
I do not believe it primarily due to lack of evidence to the contrary.

So I'm supposed to prove... a lack of evidence?
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#149 Oct 27 2012 at 2:03 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I'll keep waiting.
Don't hold your breath. Hint: Joph's claim wasn't that blackness was or was not a significant factor in the previous election, it's that you had no evidence as to how much it played a role. And it remains proven until you... present evidence.
Again, learn to read.
Jophiel wrote:
I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election.
I also wrote:
I do not believe it primarily due to lack of evidence to the contrary.

So I'm supposed to prove... a lack of evidence?


and I also wrote:

If your answer is "no", then you are favoring the belief that the number of people who voted for President Obama simply because of his physical appearance, skin color, age, speaking ability or any other irrelevant trait wasn't high enough to make a difference. At that point, your accusation is no different than mine because you are unable to substantiate it.


You only have two options. Either you have a yes/no answer or you have no opinion. You can't give an answer and then say you have no opinion. If you say "no", then that's your claim, so back it up. If you say that you don't have an opinion because it can't be proven, then you can't ask me for proof because you just said that it can't be proven. As I said, just because you cant measure love doesn't mean you can't say that you love one thing more than another.
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#150 Oct 27 2012 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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You didn't answer me. Am I supposed to prove a lack of evidence?
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#151 Oct 27 2012 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
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I did answer you. It depends on your answer. Is your answer, "I don't think any of those factors singularly had a significant impact on the election." or "there isn't any evidence to prove one way or the other". It can't be both. Either there isn't enough evidence or you have a yes/no answer.

If your answer is "no", then it can't be because there isn't enough evidence, because not having enough evidence doesn't default to "no" or "yes". In that case, you must prove why it's "no". If your answer is "it's not enough evidence", then there isn't anything to prove. In that case, you can't ask me to prove anything either because you just said "it's not enough evidence". Your only argument would be "you can't have an opinion!".
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