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#77 Oct 25 2012 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Your solution, at best, allows for me to help address the problem with regards to local representation. What it doesn't help solve at all is the issue of a culture-wide system of oppression. Even if I was successful in getting a woman elected in my district, that doesn't actually address the core problem at all.

The lack of women in Congress is a symptom of the greater issue, not the problem itself. Which is precisely why I think it's imperative that our government and our culture recognize that this greater problem exists. Right now, it's fundamentally the same as the new racism that has taken hold of our culture.

But pretending like it isn't an issue we have to actively address because a representative system means we can address it ourselves is steeping with privilege. It's easy to take that stance when you aren't the one facing the oppression. When a good half the country (including many, many women) have been taught by their culture to think of feminism as a dirty word, that is a serious blow against ALL women.

It's irresponsible to charge a group, any group, with picking themselves up by the bootstraps when the systems in place do just about everything they can to keep that group from even believing that change is necessary, let alone desirable.
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#78 Oct 25 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Probably should also point out the irony of primarily having 3 men debating this issue atm... Smiley: lol

Edited, Oct 25th 2012 2:36pm by someproteinguy
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#79 Oct 25 2012 at 3:53 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
At the point in which you can take some adult cells from my arm and manipulate them into a fully functional human embryo, such that if said embryo was implanted into a womb, it would grow into a complete human being *then* you'd have a point. But only with regard to the embryo once created. The cells in my arm don't count. And the stem cells you take from them don't count. And even the modified versions of those stem cells don't count. It's not an ethical issue until you create the embryo.


Right, and I see that as a meaningless and arbitrary distinction. If both are (assumption of course) fully capable of creating a whole person, why should someone's humanity be dependent on their location?


Except that you're inventing cases in which real distinctions become arbitrary. I could just as easily imagine that we could invent a matter transformation device capable of transforming any matter into any other matter of identical atomic weight. I could then imagine that the snickers bar I'm about to eat could be transformed into organic cells, which could then be genetically modified into human stem cells, which could then be grown into a human embryo, which could then be implanted and become a human being, and thus conclude that if I eat that snickers bar, I'm committing murder (and cannibalism!). But that would be kinda silly. We have to pick a point at which we distinguish between whether something is a human life or not. And it makes the most sense to put that distinction at some point where we're actually dealing with a complete human organism (in any stage of development). So a single adult cell is not a complete human organism. A collection of cells is not. Sperm is not. Eggs are not. Only if we're talking about Zygotes, Blastocysts, Embryos, fetus', children, teens, adults, etc are we talking about actual stages of complete human organisms.

I think that distinction is neither meaningless or arbitrary.
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#80 Oct 25 2012 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I think that distinction is neither meaningless or arbitrary.


I would have never guessed.

Just chalk my opinion up to someone who spends too much time in grey areas that don't exist for most people. Biochemistry is an odd profession at times. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Oct 25th 2012 3:13pm by someproteinguy
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#81 Oct 25 2012 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Your solution, at best, allows for me to help address the problem with regards to local representation. What it doesn't help solve at all is the issue of a culture-wide system of oppression. Even if I was successful in getting a woman elected in my district, that doesn't actually address the core problem at all.

This suggests that there is a core problem.
I previously wrote:
In any event, the question was "what right" our elected representatives have to be representing us. No one has actually made a counter-argument that being elected to represent the populace doesn't give you the right to represent select portions of the populace based on gender.
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#82 Oct 25 2012 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would vote for more women, but it seems like the smart ones stay out of politics.

We need a binder.

My state has been represented in Senate by two women for years. There are still inequalities between the sexes that I don't think should exist, but women and others tackle the little issues and pushing the whole movement more towards equal. I don't feel unduly represented as a woman in our government as a whole.

Maine could use a woman gov. Smiley: grin


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#83 Oct 25 2012 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Your solution, at best, allows for me to help address the problem with regards to local representation. What it doesn't help solve at all is the issue of a culture-wide system of oppression. Even if I was successful in getting a woman elected in my district, that doesn't actually address the core problem at all.

This suggests that there is a core problem.


Did you forget what started this discussion?

Me wrote:
But no one is willing to pioneer the debate that actually has to happen--what right does a room full of men have to dictate the rights of women?


So your response to the question of whether or not its acceptable for a group of men to debate women's rights is to discard it because you don't know... if that's a problem?

Right, okay then. That makes perfect sense.
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#84 Oct 25 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Me wrote:
But no one is willing to pioneer the debate that actually has to happen--what right does a room full of men have to dictate the rights of women?

So your response to the question of whether or not its acceptable for a group of men to debate women's rights is to discard it because you don't know... if that's a problem?

My response was to give the justification under our government for those men to legislate the rights of women (or anyone else). You haven't explained yet why I'm wrong. I understand that you don't like the answer but that doesn't make it incorrect.
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#85 Oct 25 2012 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Your solution, at best, allows for me to help address the problem with regards to local representation. What it doesn't help solve at all is the issue of a culture-wide system of oppression. Even if I was successful in getting a woman elected in my district, that doesn't actually address the core problem at all.

The lack of women in Congress is a symptom of the greater issue, not the problem itself. Which is precisely why I think it's imperative that our government and our culture recognize that this greater problem exists. Right now, it's fundamentally the same as the new racism that has taken hold of our culture.


What you're missing, or ignoring, is that the solutions to these problems work in tandem. It isn't either/or, it's cumulative. Women running for office at the local level eventually means that more women will run for office at the state and national level. The culture changes all the time, but it isn't easily forced. Our inability to solve all problems right now does not excuse us from solving the problems we can.

There has always been sexism, and I suspect it will always be with us just due to the nature of heterosexual ***. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't confront it, but waiting for that to change is a fool's game.
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#86 Oct 25 2012 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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I just, and I'm sorry here maybe this will just get labeled as "You can't understand", but I just don't understand how having a ****** makes you innately more qualified to the point where the best argument against legislation you don't like is "They shouldn't let a man decide that". Again, would you rather pro-life, anti-universal healthcare Michelle Bachmann decide your woman's health issues than pro-choice, pro-UHC Barney Frank (just to pick a few names I assume will be familiar)? I mean, she has a ****** right so she's much more qualified? Doesn't it make more sense to worry less about the gender of the individual and worry more about what their platform is on women's health issues if those are important to you?

If I feel strongly about my right to attend Mass and there's a guy who wants to outlaw that and a guy who wants to preserve it, I don't care which one is Roman Catholic and which one is a Jewish-Wiccan-Druid-Muslim, I'm going to support the guy with the platform I want advanced.

Edited, Oct 25th 2012 6:22pm by Jophiel
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#87 Oct 25 2012 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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My response was to give the justification under our government for those men to legislate the rights of women (or anyone else). You haven't explained yet why I'm wrong. I understand that you don't like the answer but that doesn't make it incorrect.


I'm going to go ahead and quote this, again, because you're consistently missing the point.

Quote:
Quote:
But no one is willing to pioneer the debate that actually has to happen--what right does a room full of men have to dictate the rights of women?

They were elected via our representative form of government? Next time, vote for a chick if it bothers you.


I suggested that a debate on whether or not men had the right to dictate the rights of women was necessary.

You responded by taking a stance in the debate.

You never addressed why the discussion itself wouldn't be valuable, which is specifically why it's not necessary for me to tell you why you're wrong. You're arguing against a position I didn't make. If you want to have that discussion, then I'm game, but you have yet to address the point I originally brought up--that I think it's important for there to be a national debate on whether or not women are being fairly represented in our government.

Personally, I don't like the idea of legislative quotas. But there might be other options to help break social stigma I haven't even considered. And even if the debate led to nothing useful at a legislative level, it forces it into the public awareness. Right now, this issue is only discussed when the question of women's rights in particular comes up, so it never gets to be the subject of a discussion itself. But isn't that problematic? It keeps being used as a defense, primarily by the left, but we've never even had a concerted discussion on whether or not its a valid criticism?

I think that's a serious problem.

I also think a national debate would have serious social utility--it would put the question in people's minds, make it a part of public discourse in a way it hasn't been. It's a national issue that's gotten next to no airtime in the national discourse. Yet every person in America has an opinion on oil pipelines that largely don't affect us.

If you wanted justification on why I think a national-level debate is needed, there you go.
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#88 Oct 25 2012 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You never addressed why the discussion itself wouldn't be valuable, which is specifically why it's not necessary for me to tell you why you're wrong.

Well, given that no one else has made a real counter-position on the rights of elected representatives, I guess I won the debate Smiley: laugh
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#89 Oct 25 2012 at 6:24 PM Rating: Default
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Crap, missed out.. can we get back to abortion?

Jophiel wrote:

All people? It certainly suggests that people who view race as their primary voting factor (and are against African-Americans) make up a minority of the population.


But that population is small in comparison to the amount of people who did vote with race as their primary voting factor. Whether positive or negative, it demonstrated that race is still a big issue.
#90 Oct 25 2012 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
But that population is small in comparison to the amount of people who did vote with race as their primary voting factor. Whether positive or negative, it demonstrated that race is still a big issue.

lolwut?
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#91 Oct 25 2012 at 7:06 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
But that population is small in comparison to the amount of people who did vote with race as their primary voting factor. Whether positive or negative, it demonstrated that race is still a big issue.

lolwut?


The original statement of voting for a half-black man mean that racism was over, with the implication that "race isn't an issue". You countered that the fact that there wasn't enough people who didn't want a black person in office to prevent a black person from getting in office, insinuating that "race isn't an issue". However, many people voted for President Obama simply because he was black, from all races, so race is still an issue. Just because his race wasn't used AGAINST him, but FOR him, doesn't mean that it wasn't a factor.
#92 Oct 25 2012 at 7:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
I just, and I'm sorry here maybe this will just get labeled as "You can't understand", but I just don't understand how having a ****** makes you innately more qualified to the point where the best argument against legislation you don't like is "They shouldn't let a man decide that".


I don't think it's so much that men shouldn't be allowed to make decisions on this particular issue, it's that it is incredibly frustrating when you have a group of old white men making health decisions that only affect women. Especially when they make the decision you disagree with. There was a picture of Bush signing the law or executive order or whatever it was, that made third trimester abortions illegal, and he was surrounded by a group of old white men and they were all grinning. I can't speak for other women, but that just felt like a slap in the face to me.

I agree with both of you, honestly. I get where Digg is coming from in that I wish there were more women politicians in the house and the senate. But I also agree with you that the actual stance of the politician is a lot more important. I'd definitely vote for Barney Frank over Michelle Bachmann, that's for **** sure.
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#93 Oct 25 2012 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
However, many people voted for President Obama simply because he was black, from all races, so race is still an issue.

Doesn't mean it was a majority issue. I'm sure some number of people voted for or against him on the basis of his race. Unless you can support that a majority of voters did so, you don't have much of an argument.

Edit: To get a jump on the "black vote" argument, a brief look shows that Kerry received 88% of the black vote. Gore received 90%. Obama 96%. If we take that 6-8% difference at face value (and ignore the fact that nearly all demographic groups voted more heavily Democratic that year), you're still a far way from positing that a majority of voters voted on the basis of race.

Edited, Oct 25th 2012 8:30pm by Jophiel
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#94 Oct 25 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
There was a picture of Bush signing the law or executive order or whatever it was, that made third trimester abortions illegal, and he was surrounded by a group of old white men and they were all grinning. I can't speak for other women, but that just felt like a slap in the face to me.

I can see where that would be frustrating emotionally. Logically, if those men were replaced with women from their districts, said women would probably have the same political ideology and have voted the same way.
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#95 Oct 25 2012 at 7:59 PM Rating: Default
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Pig wrote:
I don't think it's so much that men shouldn't be allowed to make decisions on this particular issue, it's that it is incredibly frustrating when you have a group of old white men making health decisions that only affect women.


Until men are able to "abort" child support, it affects them as well.

Jophiel wrote:
Doesn't mean it was a majority issue. I'm sure some number of people voted for or against him on the basis of his race. Unless you can support that a majority of voters did so, you don't have much of an argument.


There's no way of proving one way or another, but it does support the notion that it's still an issue.

Quote:
Edit: To get a jump on the "black vote" argument, a brief look shows that Kerry received 88% of the black vote. Gore received 90%. Obama 96%. If we take that 6-8% difference at face value (and ignore the fact that nearly all demographic groups voted more heavily Democratic that year), you're still a far way from positing that a majority of voters voted on the basis of race.


I was already aware of those numbers and given that the black population has been less than 15%, it's simply not enough to overcome the "white vote". At the same time, if you don't think there was a significant amount of non-blacks voting for President Obama, simply because he's black or voting for Hilary, simply because she's a woman, then you're sadly mistaken.
#96gbaji, Posted: Oct 25 2012 at 8:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Setting aside the canard that said health decisions only affect women, the underlying question was whether they had the right to do so. And as Joph has correctly argued, they do. We give it to them as part of our representative system. And it's not their *** that matters as much as their politics.
#97 Oct 25 2012 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
However, many people voted for President Obama simply because he was black, from all races, so race is still an issue.

Doesn't mean it was a majority issue. I'm sure some number of people voted for or against him on the basis of his race. Unless you can support that a majority of voters did so, you don't have much of an argument.

Edit: To get a jump on the "black vote" argument, a brief look shows that Kerry received 88% of the black vote. Gore received 90%. Obama 96%. If we take that 6-8% difference at face value (and ignore the fact that nearly all demographic groups voted more heavily Democratic that year), you're still a far way from positing that a majority of voters voted on the basis of race.

Edited, Oct 25th 2012 8:30pm by Jophiel


Blacks always vote overwhelmingly Democrat.

Obama did seem to bring a noticeably higher percentage of black voters to the polls though.
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#98 Oct 25 2012 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji, protip, if you "set aside" the most important factor of your opponent's defense, you're doing it wrong.
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#99 Oct 25 2012 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, and rich white men tend to vote for rich white men issues... EVERYONE has a bias.

Alma, I agree with you that child support is a touchy issue. I agree that it is unfair for a man to have to pay child support for a child he did not want and has no interest in being involved in their life. However, there are ways around this. Wear a condom every time. It's not 100% effective, sure. But it drastically cuts down on pregnancy and STDs, and then you don't have to worry about whether the women you sleep with are lying to you when they say they're on birth control. Smiley: wink2 Also, I'm pretty sure that terminating your parental rights is a way of getting out of paying child support.

I also agree that it is unfair for a man to accidentally impregnate a woman, decide he actually wants said potential child, and then have her get an abortion without his say. However, it is also unfair to ask a woman to act as a human incubator for a child she does not want. It is also unfair that women make less money in comparison to men, it is unfair that we have to deal with stupid reports from CNN citing studies that claim that women vote with their periods, and it is unfair that we don't have a single payer health care system in this country. The day that men figure out how to get pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you can have a legitimate say in abortion rights. Until then, get the **** out of my uterus.
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#100 Oct 25 2012 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
At the same time, if you don't think there was a significant amount of non-blacks voting for President Obama, simply because he's black or voting for Hilary, simply because she's a woman, then you're sadly mistaken.

For a worthless term like "significant", I'm sure that's true.
TirithRR wrote:
Obama did seem to bring a noticeably higher percentage of black voters to the polls though.

2% more than Kerry according to your numbers and the percentage of blacks in the voting population had been increasing every cycle. I would hesitate to read too much into it and it wasn't a huge swing in any event.

Edited, Oct 25th 2012 10:15pm by Jophiel
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#101 Oct 25 2012 at 10:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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The day that men figure out how to get pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you can have a legitimate say in abortion rights. Until then, get the @#%^ out of my uterus.
that's not a reasonable argument though. We collectively have a say in laws, and trying to restrict this is ******* stupid.
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