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Debate #2 Go......Follow

#202 Oct 11 2012 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, he could have answered that better. Again, I don't know if there's things there he's not at liberty to discuss but, either way, he could have answered it better.

Also, that was a bad time to be smiling during Ryan's speech.
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#203 Oct 11 2012 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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I wonder how many people are going to remember that tomorrow though.
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#204 Oct 11 2012 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm only half-way through reading the thread, but this is now my desktop background. I wonder if it'll work on my phone...
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#205 Oct 11 2012 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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#206 Oct 11 2012 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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oh come on guys use spoiler tags I just got home!.
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#207 Oct 11 2012 at 10:05 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
oh come on guys use spoiler tags I just got home!.
Should've listened to the radio or go home early.

Edited, Oct 12th 2012 6:06am by Aethien
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#208 Oct 11 2012 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder how many people are going to remember that tomorrow though.

Doesn't matter. Nobody votes for VP. Biden energized the base, and in turnout elections, that matters a lot. The ground game is where Democrats win, and 1000 staffers in Ohio just decided they were going to work harder.
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#209 Oct 11 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Man Biden is just taking it to this kid.

Favorite Line.

"this is what politicians do who don't have a record to run on..." I hope that wasn't directed at Biden. Actually the only guy in the race who has no federal political record is Romney. So was it directed at him?
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#210 Oct 12 2012 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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Where did they store this Biden and why don't they use him more often?
---

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I'm surprised neither of them brought up North Korea as an analog. They have a nuclear bomb but it kinda sucks, and like Iran they have no missile capable of delivering it internationally. And they developed it even with trade sanctions in place, which is a point Ryan could have made. But the country is also impoverished and malnourished, which is bad from a humanist standpoint, but which also can't go on forever and they'll have to relent eventually.


NK actually has a decent long(er) term outlook, pending the execution of some of the old guard leadership. Jang Sung-taek likes 'modernization' over military spending. Nothing set in stone, nor soon, but it's looking better.
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#212 Oct 12 2012 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Pretty soon when we have footage of mile long gas lines in CA and make sure every swing state voter takes a good look.

Why gas lines?
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#213 Oct 12 2012 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gas is going to be $5 or $6 a gallon! Just like it was going to be last month... and this past summer... and last winter... and in 2010...
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#214 Oct 12 2012 at 7:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Where did they store this Biden and why don't they use him more often?
He's always sleeping, storing his energy for times like this I guess.
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#216 Oct 12 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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Biden cackling like a crazed old man sure was a uh step uh up uh from uh obama.
Guffawing or snorting or possibly even howling, but there was no cackling.

You're not doing so well expressing yourself today.
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#217 Oct 12 2012 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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I like how all the "old man" insults come out now. McCain was 2 years older in 2008, and actually came off as an old man at times. Biden was lively, but I guess lively + white hair = angry old man.
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#218 Oct 12 2012 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Where did they store this Biden and why don't they use him more often?
He's always sleeping, storing his energy for times like this I guess.

Biden, like most Polibears, sleeps for 3 years then goes on a rampage for the remainder of the quadrennium.
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#219 Oct 12 2012 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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California's gas prices were caused by a refinery fire taking out a third of the production capability for the state. The refinery, once the largest in the entire country, is a total loss and now CA is having to import gas from other states to meet demand. Prices would be rising no matter who is president.

It'll probably be a year before equilibrium with the rest of the country is restored.

Stop driving so much in the meantime or go buy a hybrid.

Edited, Oct 12th 2012 11:50am by catwho
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#220 Oct 12 2012 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only logical explanation is that Obama suicide bombed that refinery. Because he's a Muslim. And hates America.
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#221 Oct 12 2012 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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trickybeck wrote:
Biden was lively, but I guess lively + white hair = angry old man.

Someone at the old folks home probably mixed up his meds again.
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#222 Oct 12 2012 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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Being the angry old guy was what I liked about McCain.
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#223 Oct 12 2012 at 1:51 PM Rating: Default
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Well, I guess my prediction on that debate was totally off...

What's ironic is that Biden did everything people said they wish President Obama did in the last debate (pulling out the BS flag), but somehow that makes "Biden" mean.
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#224 Oct 12 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Didn't watch the VP debate. Based just on the way that I've heard commentators couch their descriptions of it, I'm inclined to think that people are giving Ryan credit just for showing up and being marginally coherent.

How high can the standards for these guys be when commentators are saying things like "Well, I was pleasantly surprised to see that Ryan talked about things, and he looked like a person out there. You've got to be impressed with that."...?
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#225 Oct 12 2012 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I guess my prediction on that debate was totally off...

What's ironic is that Biden did everything people said they wish President Obama did in the last debate (pulling out the BS flag), but somehow that makes "Biden" mean.


It's all the media's spin. They want the race to seem as close as possible. While the 1st presidential debate was a snoozefest, they were pretty quick afterwards to say "Well... yeah, I think we can give this one to Romney." It was obvious early in that Joe had Ryan's nuts in a vice grip, yet afterwards they're all "Well, Biden was on the offense the whole time... we're gonna have to see how people react to this." They're just trying to ride the wave for as long as possible.

I mean, it is hard to not give Ryan credit for just showing up, because this was just a venue that Biden was obviously much much more experienced with. Ryan knows how to recite speeches with his puppy dog eyes wide and a bit of effeminate affect, but that's about it. He was very well practiced and remained significantly calmer than he would have without days of repetition, but it was still an event he had never participated in, so he lost just out of inexperience.

Edited, Oct 12th 2012 3:17pm by Guenny
#226 Oct 12 2012 at 2:15 PM Rating: Default
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Well, I don't think a single person who saw both debates doesn't think that the last debate was more entertaining. I'm sure Ryan thought that he was going to be able to pull off a Mitt and just make stuff up... I'm sure he didn't think he was going to hear malarkey!
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#227 Oct 12 2012 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
What's ironic is that Biden did everything people said they wish President Obama did in the last debate (pulling out the BS flag), but somehow that makes "Biden" mean.

Meh. Democrats are congratulating Biden on substance, that he responded firmly to every one of Ryan's points.

Republicans are **** about Biden's body language and whether he laughed too much more than lauding Ryan.
Guenny wrote:
this was just a venue that Biden was obviously much much more experienced with.

It's not just presidential or VP debates; Biden's been in politics longer than God. Debating on the Senate floor, doing the Sunday morning talk shows, etc. He was first elected to office when Ryan was two years old.

The format was a Sunday morning talk show format with them at a table going over the issues. It was one Biden has been doing for decades and he was completely within his element.

Edited, Oct 12th 2012 3:27pm by Jophiel
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#228 Oct 12 2012 at 2:36 PM Rating: Default
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Meh. Democrats are congratulating Biden on substance, that he responded firmly to every one of Ryan's points.

Republicans are **** about Biden's body language and whether he laughed too much more than lauding Ryan.


I can see that.. well not literally, cable wont be turned on till tomorrow :(
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#229 Oct 12 2012 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
What's ironic is that Biden did everything people said they wish President Obama did in the last debate (pulling out the BS flag), but somehow that makes "Biden" mean.

Meh. Democrats are congratulating Biden on substance, that he responded firmly to every one of Ryan's points.

Republicans are **** about Biden's body language and whether he laughed too much more than lauding Ryan.
Guenny wrote:
this was just a venue that Biden was obviously much much more experienced with.

It's not just presidential or VP debates; Biden's been in politics longer than God. Debating on the Senate floor, doing the Sunday morning talk shows, etc. He was first elected to office when Ryan was two years old.

The format was a Sunday morning talk show format with them at a table going over the issues. It was one Biden has been doing for decades and he was completely within his element.

Edited, Oct 12th 2012 3:27pm by Jophiel


You know, that's where I'd seen Ryan most often before he was VP nominee, was on Sunday morning talk shows. I always thought it was kinda creepy and obviously very rehearsed in everything he said, and sometimes you'd see him getting visibly agitated. I was hoping Biden would be able to draw out that a little bit more, but like I said, he was obviously so practiced that he just shut down everything but his lizard brain.
#230gbaji, Posted: Oct 12 2012 at 4:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Let's all be honest. The bar was set so low for Biden going into this that as long as he didn't make a really bad gaffe, he would be declared the winner. I think both men "won" in the sense that they achieved their objectives going into the debate. Biden didn't make himself look like an idiot, and Ryan didn't make himself look like an evil guy trying to steal granny's life savings.
#231 Oct 12 2012 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's a lot of words for you to say you didn't watch it.
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#232 Oct 12 2012 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
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As ignorant as I am on this, it didn't seem that Ryan actually knew any detail on any of this stuff. I don't necessarily fault him, but I think it's a downfall when "selected" as VP so late in the game. I think if VP candidates worked as "VP candidates" prior to the primaries, they would be more in sync. However, everyone wants to be #1 and then when they can't be #1, everyone wants to jump ship and support whoever is representing their party.

This is why I say Biden "won". Yes, there was low expectations, but he performed to the expectations that the President Obama had in the first debate, which were high.
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#233 Oct 12 2012 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Let's all be honest. The bar was set so low for Biden going into this that as long as he didn't make a really bad gaffe, he would be declared the winner.

Let's be honest, no national candidate could have lost a debate with Ryan. Romney was great. Ryan was a mess.
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#234 Oct 12 2012 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let's be honest, , Gbaji has been gloating since August that Ryan would just crush and humiliate Biden, nothing of the sort happened and now Gbaji needs to spin it to make himself feel better.
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#235 Oct 12 2012 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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As Joph said, this is an element Biden understands intimately.

For every question, Biden laid the framework for his response, and proceeded to make his argument. After that was done, and he had established credibility, he proceeded to discuss how his plan differed from Romney's and/or why the other side was wrong.

That's exactly how you should behave in a debate. You build yourself up then shut down your opponent. For an audience to care about your critiques, they have to believe you know something about the topic.

Ryan absolutely failed there. He usually began by attacking the Obama administration, and tried to build his argument from there. And it ended up jumbled and incoherent, because half the time you had no clue if he was saying something as a response to what he was trashing, or saying it because it was actually his position. And then you combine that with how little he actually said about his position, it's an absolute joke. The mediator shouldn't have to be telling you that you didn't answer the question. You should have answered the question as quickly and concisely as possible, then used the remaining time to sow distrust for the opponent in your audience.

Stories about personal experiences are well and good in speeches. They don't mean **** in a national debate. Any opponent is just going to step in and tear that down--you are actually creating an opening for him. This isn't the time to set yourself up as Mr. Nice Guy--that's what the years of campaigning were for. This time is for you to prove that you're also going to be able to succeed as one of the nation's most powerful people, by proving that your opponent can't touch you.

And note that I haven't said anything about who was right or wrong on those issues. The only thing I'm saying is that Ryan's performance during the debate was remarkably poor, and Biden's was spot-on for much of it.

Even when it comes down to things like body language. Ryan's compulsive drinking, awkward frame, and frozen expression revealed just how nervous he was. It was like watching Romney acknowledging the comments in the 47% video. And I don't fault him for it--it's natural to be ridiculously nervous, especially when your campaign is inept and you have no clue what stance you're supposed to be taking--but it's very poor debate form. If you're not comfortable making your own argument, an argument you expect to be sufficient to earn you the presidency, no one else is going to be comfortable believing it.

So yeah, whatever you think about how correct Biden's arguments were, Ryan was pathetic in trying to actually debate anything.
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#236 Oct 12 2012 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I respect anyone's ability to concede a point, but half the time I didn't know whose case Ryan was making. He spent a lot of time, it seemed to me, saying, "Well, you were right about..."

He did get a bit irritable toward the end, too. That only looks good in a debate if you have a commanding presence. Ryan sounded too whiny.
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#237 Oct 12 2012 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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The fact that Biden often looked at the camera and talked directly to the audience very firmly was a major plus

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And it ended up jumbled and incoherent,


That's MY strategy!Smiley: bah
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#238 Oct 13 2012 at 1:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

I think Ryan put a lot more substance on the table than Biden, but that Biden did a good job attacking the substance Ryan put out there,


Oh please, did you even watch the debate, or even read a transcript of it? Ryan offered no substance, he offered talking points. **** the moderator asked him several times to elaborate of his points, key being points on the way they plan to pay for 5 trillion in new tax cuts.

He had no substance, he had nothing to stand on, and Biden ate him up. Period.

It was a once sided slaughter, Biden brought all the points and hammered them home...because he has a record to run on. Which ironically was the zinger from Ryan for the night.

Quote:
""this is what politicians do who don't have a record to run on..."


Saying Biden, has no record to run on, are you kidding me. The only guy who has no record on the federal level is Romney.

If you believe the kid had substance you are delusional.

Edited, Oct 13th 2012 3:57am by rdmcandie
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#239 Oct 15 2012 at 4:37 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I think Ryan put a lot more substance on the table than Biden, but that Biden did a good job attacking the substance Ryan put out there,


Oh please, did you even watch the debate, or even read a transcript of it? Ryan offered no substance, he offered talking points.


I said that he put a lot more on the table than Biden. Which he did.

Quote:
Hell the moderator asked him several times to elaborate of his points, key being points on the way they plan to pay for 5 trillion in new tax cuts.


Yes. The moderator asked for more detail of Ryan, and none of Biden. Think about that. Then think about how an objective moderator would ask a candidate to elaborate on how he's going to pay for a dollar amount of taxes which just happens to be the talking point of the Democrats right now, but which the GOP candidates have steadfastly argued is *not* an accurate number. It would be like if a moderator asked Biden how he's going to convince people to support his socialist agenda (using exactly that language). I'm sure you'd think that was a bit biased, right?

Quote:
Saying Biden, has no record to run on, are you kidding me.


I didn't say Biden had no record. What he (and the president) don't have is a plan. I'm sorry, could you elaborate on the plan that he outlined during that debate? Because I saw him attacking the Romney/Ryan plan a whole lot, while failing to present an alternative at all. Now, to be fair, that often works in a debate since most people don't realize it at the time. But my point that Ryan put substance on the table while Biden didn't is absolutely correct. Ryans failure wasn't a lack of substance but that he failed to defend the substance he presented and failed to point out the lack of same from Biden.

Quote:
If you believe the kid had substance you are delusional.


I'll ask again: What substance did Biden present at the debate? I have the thing DVR'd and have watched it a couple times. Biden did a great job distracting from the issues and tossing zingers out there. He did a crappy job telling people what he and Obama would do in a second term which might justify people putting their faith in them again. Saying "trust me" over and over tends to not actually make people want to trust you btw.


His performance was designed to appeal to the left wing. And it did. But as I said earlier, I don't think folks in the middle were that impressed with Biden. He was long on rhetoric and clever quips, but short on ideas and policy. Again though, this is the VP debate, so it's hard to say how much weight anyone puts in that. I do think that Ryan did a lot better job showing that he and Romney have ideas, while the current administration does not. And I think that's far more important than anything else.
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#240 Oct 15 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Are we still talking about how Biden stumped Ryan?
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#241 Oct 15 2012 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I think Ryan put a lot more substance on the table than Biden, but that Biden did a good job attacking the substance Ryan put out there,


Oh please, did you even watch the debate, or even read a transcript of it? Ryan offered no substance, he offered talking points.


I said that he put a lot more on the table than Biden. Which he did.

But did you *watch* the debate? It's all about context, right?
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#243 Oct 15 2012 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
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Since this bears repeating:

rdmcandie wrote:
Hell the moderator asked him several times to elaborate of his points, key being points on the way they plan to pay for 5 trillion in new tax cuts.


Are you aware of the Complex Question Fallacy? Btw, this is why folks on the left thought the moderator this time did a much better job. She basically intervened on behalf of Biden. She asked much tougher questions of Ryan, tossed softballs at Biden (and covered for him when he stumbled the answer), and conveniently changed the topic whenever Ryan questioned one of Biden's responses.


At the end of the day, it's not really what we think though. The polls are pretty split in terms of who won the debate. And that basically helps the challengers more than the incumbents. They're supposed to be better. You guys can cheer about how Biden kicked butt, but the reality is that he just managed to hold his own. And while Ryan actually argued the issues and his points, Biden used debating tricks. I guess what's surprising to me is how instead of saying that Biden debated better (he did), some of you want to argue that he somehow put more substance out there. That's just nutty IMO.


I'll ask again: What substance did Biden present during the debate? Because all I saw him do was wait for Ryan to talk about something, and then attack what Ryan said. I suppose he did toss out a couple of numbers, but most of that was stump speech rhetoric. I saw nothing remotely approaching analysis and argument from Biden.
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#244 Oct 15 2012 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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You're right, all those times pointing out that the military answers to a civilian executive were her tossing Biden points.

Selective memory is selective.
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#245 Oct 15 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I have the thing DVR'd
Did you program it to not record the parts where either of them spoke?
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#246 Oct 15 2012 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I have the thing DVR'd and have watched it a couple times.

For God's sake, get a girlfriend.
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#248 Oct 15 2012 at 7:24 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have the thing DVR'd and have watched it a couple times.

For God's sake, get a girlfriend.


LOL.. I'm going to DVR the next one also.. I'm not sure how that's any worse than live instant posting "play by play" as it's happening...
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#249 Oct 15 2012 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Are we going to have to start making a list of words you don't understand? Maybe you can get together with someone that has a word-a-day calendar and you can catch up to my three year old daughter's vocabulary.
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#251 Oct 15 2012 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
LOL.. I'm going to DVR the next one also.. I'm not sure how that's any worse than live instant posting "play by play" as it's happening...

The part where you watch it repeatedly.
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