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Bill Nye defends EvolutionFollow

#52 Aug 29 2012 at 6:21 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Demea wrote:
Good to know that Mr. Nye is here to defend evolution from... who, exactly?
From those scary religious folks who apparently want to force everyone to believe in the 7 days biblical account and reject evolution.


LockeColeMA wrote:
Quote:
I don't see anyone being forced to believe anything.


Oh, that's the argument? Well dang, I thought you said it was hard to find anyone wanting to teach these beliefs in classrooms.


Not my fault you suck at reading.

Quote:
My bad, here I thought you were lying Smiley: lol


Perhaps you should go back and double check what someone actually said before assuming they are lying? Just a thought.
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#53 Aug 29 2012 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
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You're only allowed to mention science during odd-numbered years.

That said, would that mean moon rocks emit light as well? We need to get back onto the moon and stock up -- we can cut US energy consumption when our homes and businesses are all illuminated with natural, divinely occurring moonlight.

Unless it turns out to be deadly poisonous

Still gotta be safer than nucular power though, right?

I'm assuming this statement is facetious.

What gave it away, my use of a Bushism?
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#54 Aug 30 2012 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Demea wrote:
Good to know that Mr. Nye is here to defend evolution from... who, exactly?
From those scary religious folks who apparently want to force everyone to believe in the 7 days biblical account and reject evolution.


LockeColeMA wrote:
Quote:
I don't see anyone being forced to believe anything.


Oh, that's the argument? Well dang, I thought you said it was hard to find anyone wanting to teach these beliefs in classrooms.


Not my fault you suck at reading.


Not my fault you suck at remembering what you wrote Smiley: nod
Quote:
Of course, it's hard to find enough of those scary religious folks actually doing anything with regard to this issue


Tell me again how it is so very, very hard to find any of those scary religious folks, gbaji. I think you missed it (again) when I linked to six different states pushing for creationism to be allowed in public science classrooms. Oh, or maybe you just tried to ignore it. Smiley: rolleyes
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#55 Aug 30 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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They're hard to find because they only show up on election years.
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#56 Aug 30 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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#57 Aug 30 2012 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Creationism education advocates are trying to distract from Romney's gun-running!

Is that what he was doing in the Cayman Islands?
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#58 Aug 30 2012 at 9:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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The thing that gets me about all the "teach the controversy" laws is that they ignore the fact that there is no controversy in scientific circles, except from a smaller number of scientists than those who still believe the Earth is flat.
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#59 Aug 30 2012 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
The thing that gets me about all the "teach the controversy" laws is that they ignore the fact that there is no controversy in scientific circles, except from a smaller number of scientists than those who still believe the Earth is flat.
There are no scientists who think the Earth is flat. That would be a complete oxymoron (I don't think that's the right word, actually).

You could make a pretty solid case for things other than just natural selection occurring, as well. The people who want to "teach the controversy" want it to be as to whether Evolution happens at all. That's not really going to happen. There are more peer reviewed articles and physical evidence for Evolution than any other theory in science to date. This is not up for discussion.

Now if you want to ask if we know of the processes by which evolution can occur? That's where scientists go "I don't know" and then you can present a hypothesis and test it. That's where creationism fails. That's why it isn't science. That's why people like Bill Nye have to make statements like this.

Edited, Aug 30th 2012 3:00pm by Nilatai
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#60 Aug 30 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
catwho wrote:
The thing that gets me about all the "teach the controversy" laws is that they ignore the fact that there is no controversy in scientific circles, except from a smaller number of scientists than those who still believe the Earth is flat.
There are no scientists who think the Earth is flat.


I think that is what she was saying. If:
(Scientists who believe there is a controversy) < (Scientists who believe the earth is flat)
AND
(Scientists who believe the earth is flat) = 0
THEN
(Scientists who believe there is a controversy) < 0

MATH'D
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#61 Aug 30 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
catwho wrote:
The thing that gets me about all the "teach the controversy" laws is that they ignore the fact that there is no controversy in scientific circles, except from a smaller number of scientists than those who still believe the Earth is flat.
There are no scientists who think the Earth is flat.


I think that is what she was saying. If:
(Scientists who believe there is a controversy) < (Scientists who believe the earth is flat)
AND
(Scientists who believe the earth is flat) = 0
THEN
(Scientists who believe there is a controversy) < 0

MATH'D

I misread what she said. Painkillers FTW. Smiley: grin
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#62 Sep 01 2012 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
You could make a pretty solid case for things other than just natural selection occurring, as well.
I don't think this is true. Unless I've missed something, I can't think of a single case in the whole of biology in which evolution has moved contrary to what natural selection would dictate or allow for.
#63 Sep 01 2012 at 12:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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LeWoVoc wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
You could make a pretty solid case for things other than just natural selection occurring, as well.
I don't think this is true. Unless I've missed something, I can't think of a single case in the whole of biology in which evolution has moved contrary to what natural selection would dictate or allow for.


Alma.
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#64 Sep 01 2012 at 1:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can't think of a single case in the whole of biology in which evolution has moved contrary to what natural selection would dictate or allow for.


Pretty much humanity in general. Science, technology, medicine, & a lack of lions has defeated natural selection in a lot of places.

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#65 Sep 01 2012 at 1:07 AM Rating: Good
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I love Louis C.K. so much...
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#66 Sep 01 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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LeWoVoc wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
You could make a pretty solid case for things other than just natural selection occurring, as well.
I don't think this is true. Unless I've missed something, I can't think of a single case in the whole of biology in which evolution has moved contrary to what natural selection would dictate or allow for.

I dunno, I'm not really a Biologist. Physics is more my thing.

I'm not sure if they classify things like sexual selection as the same thing. Or how humans are evolving (slowly) but without any real environmental pressures.
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#67 Sep 01 2012 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
I can't think of a single case in the whole of biology in which evolution has moved contrary to what natural selection would dictate or allow for.


Pretty much humanity in general. Science, technology, medicine, & a lack of lions has defeated natural selection in a lot of places.


Well, in a thousand years or so once we've killed ourselves off, the Earth will recover from this failed evolutionary track and go on to something else. Dinos were around for millions of years and they had brains the size of walnuts. I believe we were a mistake.
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#68 Sep 01 2012 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
I love Louis C.K. so much...

Me too...and if I gained fifty pounds and started losing my hair I'd look exactly like that.
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#69 Sep 01 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
You could make a pretty solid case for things other than just natural selection occurring, as well.
I don't think this is true. Unless I've missed something, I can't think of a single case in the whole of biology in which evolution has moved contrary to what natural selection would dictate or allow for.

I dunno, I'm not really a Biologist. Physics is more my thing.

I'm not sure if they classify things like sexual selection as the same thing. Or how humans are evolving (slowly) but without any real environmental pressures.
For what it's worth, sexual selection is considered by many to be a subset of natural selection, since they both function in the same way for the same reason. Ever since the 80's, when gene-centric evolution came to light, it's been apparent that it wasn't so much about survival of the fittest, but survival of the horniest. Any assistance in finding a mate is a survival mechanism for your genes.

As far as humans go, there are certainly pressures acting upon us; they're merely different pressures. In fact, some scientists would argue that modern humanity is evolving at an accelerated pace.

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Teehee.
#70 Sep 01 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Interesting. Thanks for the link.
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#71 Sep 01 2012 at 8:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
Interesting. Thanks for the link.

It was a good read, but I was hoping for more examples.
#72 Sep 03 2012 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sure there are lots on Google Scholar. I'll probably have a look later on!
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#73 Sep 04 2012 at 5:29 AM Rating: Decent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
gbaji wrote:

Do any of those require that creationism be taught in a public classroom? Or do they merely allow debate and discussion.


ITT: gbaji is fine with classrooms not teaching evolution, but learning about the FSM.


Finite State Machines? Smiley: confused
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#74 Sep 04 2012 at 5:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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#75 Sep 04 2012 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
I believe we were a mistake.
Maybe you were a mistake. I consider myself the product of what the world intended to created all along, and everyone else was just a stepping stone in the process to create me.
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#76 Sep 04 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Debalic wrote:
I believe we were a mistake.
Maybe you were a mistake. I consider myself the product of what the world intended to created all along, and everyone else was just a stepping stone in the process to create me.


Now now. Some of us were mistakes and some of us weren't. Those of us that weren't shouldn't gloat about it.

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#77gbaji, Posted: Sep 04 2012 at 5:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Backing this up a bit:
#78 Sep 04 2012 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Dammit! He noodled out our plan to purge the evil religions from the universe!!!!

"conscious movement", really? Gotta tell ya bro, people who don't believe in God really don't care enough about it to create a "movement". It's on par with the boogie man to us.

When I was in school evolution was taught the same way they taught me about gravity. You know in science class, where they teach SCIENCE. The problem isn't science contradicting religion, the problem is religion thinking it is science. There is no attack happening here. Teach your religion in religion class, we'll teach science in science classes, you know, like we already do...
#79 Sep 04 2012 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Backing this up a bit:

catwho wrote:
The thing that gets me about all the "teach the controversy" laws is that they ignore the fact that there is no controversy in scientific circles, except from a smaller number of scientists than those who still believe the Earth is flat.


All good science has controversy (people with different ideas/theories/etc). The minute science ceases to question itself, it ceases to be science and becomes religion. The issue many people have isn't with the broad science of evolution, but that it's being taught as though it's a religious belief that counters other religious beliefs. I know that this is a subtle point to make in a topic in which people prefer rhetoric to facts, but if you aren't aware that there is a conscious movement to attack religious beliefs by using certain fields of science, then you've got your head buried in the sand.

The purpose of science isn't to "disprove" someone's religious beliefs, but to reveal truths about the world around us. And while the field of evolutionary science does the latter, the way its often taught in school really does seem more aimed at the former. I guess the point I'm getting at is that we should not be afraid to admit that we don't know everything within a given field of science simply because someone might fill that gap with religious belief. Yet, that appears to be precisely what's been going on with this specific field.
This is a joke, right? Any way I could get you to back up that "rhetoric" with "fact?" Show me a school curriculum that aims to disprove religious belief (and I do mean just that--teaching something contrary to what a student believes doesn't count) rather than teach the science. If not, you're just spewing vague bullsh*t.

Edited, Sep 4th 2012 7:49pm by LeWoVoc
#80 Sep 04 2012 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Backing this up a bit:

All good science has controversy (people with different ideas/theories/etc). The minute science ceases to question itself, it ceases to be science and becomes religion. The issue many people have isn't with the broad science of evolution, but that it's being taught as though it's a religious belief that counters other religious beliefs. I know that this is a subtle point to make in a topic in which people prefer rhetoric to facts, but if you aren't aware that there is a conscious movement to attack religious beliefs by using certain fields of science, then you've got your head buried in the sand.

The purpose of science isn't to "disprove" someone's religious beliefs, but to reveal truths about the world around us. And while the field of evolutionary science does the latter, the way its often taught in school really does seem more aimed at the former. I guess the point I'm getting at is that we should not be afraid to admit that we don't know everything within a given field of science simply because someone might fill that gap with religious belief. Yet, that appears to be precisely what's been going on with this specific field.

The truth revealed by science is that religion is a sham. Smiley: schooled
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#81 Sep 04 2012 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Gotta tell ya bro, people who don't believe in God really don't care enough about it to create a "movement". It's on par with the boogie man to us.


I used to think the same way.

Edit: Those people are idiots, btw.


Edited, Sep 4th 2012 9:14pm by BrownDuck
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#82 Sep 04 2012 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
I used to think the same way.

Edit: Those people are idiots, btw.


Jesus Christ...
#83 Sep 04 2012 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
All good science has controversy (people with different ideas/theories/etc).

This certainly doesn't mean that all different ideas and theories are good science. Intelligent Design, for instance, is absolutely horrible "science" which is why it's not a competing theory with evolution except among creationists trying to inject religion into the science classroom.
Quote:
The minute science ceases to question itself, it ceases to be science and becomes religion. The issue many people have isn't with the broad science of evolution, but that it's being taught as though it's a religious belief that counters other religious beliefs.

When it should obviously be taught as a science that counters religious beliefs (such as creationism/ID).

Edited, Sep 4th 2012 11:30pm by Jophiel
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#84 Sep 04 2012 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The purpose of science isn't to "disprove" someone's religious beliefs, but to reveal truths about the world around us. And while the field of evolutionary science does the latter, the way its often taught in school really does seem more aimed at the former.

Can you objectionably show any evidence for widespread attempts to disprove religious beliefs? Or is it more likely that a minority of the Christian majority is upset that there is no longer favoritism shown towards their ideology.

Sometimes I forget that every time I'm not seated first in a restaurant I have someone waging a war on me. There's a battle for the very future of my dining experiences going on in this country I tell you.

Edited, Sep 4th 2012 9:52pm by Allegory
#85 Sep 04 2012 at 10:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The purpose of science isn't to "disprove" someone's religious beliefs, but to reveal truths about the world around us. And while the field of evolutionary science does the latter, the way its often taught in school really does seem more aimed at the former.

Can you objectionably show any evidence for widespread attempts to disprove religious beliefs? Or is it more likely that a minority of the Christian majority is upset that there is no longer favoritism shown towards their ideology.

Sometimes I forget that every time I'm not seated first in a restaurant I have someone waging a war on me. There's a battle for the very future of my dining experiences going on in this country I tell you.


Evidence is something science uses. And is thus biased against religion.

Edited, Sep 5th 2012 12:13am by Timelordwho
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#86 Sep 04 2012 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Or is it more likely that a minority of the Christian majority is upset that there is no longer favoritism shown towards their ideology.

Except for the tax exemptions, indirect subsidies, etc.
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#87 Sep 05 2012 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Or is it more likely that a minority of the Christian majority is upset that there is no longer favoritism shown towards their ideology.

Except for the tax exemptions, indirect subsidies, etc.

...and a paid federal holiday for in celebration of the birth of baby Jesus..
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#88 Sep 05 2012 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The purpose of science isn't to "disprove" someone's religious beliefs, but to reveal truths about the world around us. And while the field of evolutionary science does the latter, the way its often taught in school really does seem more aimed at the former.

I will hazard a guess that there is no direct evidence that 'often' schools attempt to disprove religious beliefs in science class.

You made that up.
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#89 Sep 05 2012 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
I will hazard a guess that there is no direct evidence that 'often' schools attempt to disprove religious beliefs in science class.

You made that up.


Not that I agree with Gbaji but if science class wasn't disproving religious beliefs on a regular basis I'd be concerned about the science teachers.
#90 Sep 05 2012 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The minute science ceases to question itself, it ceases to be science and becomes religion.
Like some peoples' idea of politics, Padre.
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#91 Sep 05 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
Elinda wrote:
I will hazard a guess that there is no direct evidence that 'often' schools attempt to disprove religious beliefs in science class.

You made that up.


Not that I agree with Gbaji but if science class wasn't disproving religious beliefs on a regular basis I'd be concerned about the science teachers.

Well sure, indirectly. If you're teaching flammability you kind of blow a hole in the burning bush story. But science teachers don't need to talk about, discuss, or compare religious theories vs scientific theories - and they never really did until the 'creationists' went off the deep end.





Edited, Sep 5th 2012 3:59pm by Elinda
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#92 Sep 05 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, that didn't happen when I was in school. In science you learned science, religion wasn't even hinted at let alone compared. How the hell would you compare science to religion? They're mutually exclusive concepts, one is faith based and one is evidence based, they're not even on the same playing field...
#93 Sep 05 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
Yeah, that didn't happen when I was in school. In science you learned science, religion wasn't even hinted at let alone compared. How the hell would you compare science to religion? They're mutually exclusive concepts, one is faith based and one is evidence based, they're not even on the same playing field...
Most of the evolution part of biology in school for me consisted of the instructor apologizing to students and asking them to stay in the classroom. She knew she was teaching purely factual information, yet she had an endless stream of snarky comments from the class about how "God created the world, not evolution" and other such /whooshable statements. In combination with the completely unruly classroom, she received dozens of letters from angry parents demanding their child be exempt from studying such a thing. It wasn't the teacher making it about religion.
#94 Sep 05 2012 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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LeWoVoc wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
Yeah, that didn't happen when I was in school. In science you learned science, religion wasn't even hinted at let alone compared. How the hell would you compare science to religion? They're mutually exclusive concepts, one is faith based and one is evidence based, they're not even on the same playing field...
Most of the evolution part of biology in school for me consisted of the instructor apologizing to students and asking them to stay in the classroom. She knew she was teaching purely factual information, yet she had an endless stream of snarky comments from the class about how "God created the world, not evolution" and other such /whooshable statements. In combination with the completely unruly classroom, she received dozens of letters from angry parents demanding their child be exempt from studying such a thing. It wasn't the teacher making it about religion.


Bible Belt?
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#95 Sep 05 2012 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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Bible Belt?
Knoxville. Overgrown small town.
#96 Sep 05 2012 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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LeWoVoc wrote:
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Bible Belt?
Knoxville. Overgrown small town.

Did you know I left? Moved back to Nashville. And before I was ever able to come hear you play. =( I'm sure we'll be back that way sometime, but who knows when.

You should totally come to Nashville. It's even better now than it was 12 years ago. (I can't believe I was gone that long).
#97 Sep 05 2012 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
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Bible Belt?
Knoxville. Overgrown small town.

Did you know I left? Moved back to Nashville. And before I was ever able to come hear you play. =( I'm sure we'll be back that way sometime, but who knows when.

You should totally come to Nashville. It's even better now than it was 12 years ago. (I can't believe I was gone that long).
I didn't know. It's a shame, too, because I'm just getting into some of the city places near where I think I remember you living. (market square restaurants/bars, Volunteer Landing, that sort of thing) I've thought about Nashville quite a bit, but for one thing, no one out there pays for their musicians--it's all for tips, whereas I'm making livable-ish money here. For another, I'd have to completely start over. I've only been at it about a year now, but I've played all over the place in Knoxville and the surrounding cities. Not exactly famous, but enough people know me to make it stable. I'll be there eventually, I hope, but it'll be via a slow expansion if I do.
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