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#1 Aug 17 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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So, Facebook ratted out a @#%^phile.

Now, don't get me wrong I'm glad they did but this raises some questions.

If I have a phone conversation with someone nobody is allowed to listen in without first obtaining a court order. There are good reasons for this. How is using MSN, Facebook messaging, AIM, ICQ etc any different? The conversation is between two participants so by nature it is not public and neither party is giving consent for said conversation to be shared. This would be the equivalent of your telephone company recording your phone conversation, checking it's contents and, having listened to your conversation and not liking what they heard, passing said information to a 3rd party. This is apparently common practice. How many conversations did the techs at Facebook read before they came across this one? What if you have an indirect relationship of some sort with one of these techs? Say you're their girlfriend's boss..
#2 Aug 17 2012 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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"In many cases, people believe they have an absolute right to privacy," Bowman said. "Any illusions people had as a right to privacy on Facebook should be shattered."

It's not uncommon for social network sites to monitor key words and flag key words.


Anyone using any of those sites and think that anything on there is private is living on a different planet. You really think that in the "privacy agreements" that are pages long and get changed at regular intervals that the words you type are protected? You're using their domain, their servers, their software. Of course what you type/post/say/converse is their property.
#3 Aug 17 2012 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Guenny wrote:
You really think that in the "privacy agreements" that are pages long and get changed at regular intervals that the words you type are protected?


No, "I" don't, but you can say the same for the phone company, except they don't have ANY privacy agreements, we use their hardware/software to transmit our voice conversations, heck they go through the same wires as your internet traffic.
#4 Aug 17 2012 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Guenny wrote:
Quote:
"In many cases, people believe they have an absolute right to privacy," Bowman said. "Any illusions people had as a right to privacy on Facebook should be shattered."

It's not uncommon for social network sites to monitor key words and flag key words.


Anyone using any of those sites and think that anything on there is private is living on a different planet.


Sadly that group is likely the majority, based on my experience with people.
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#5 Aug 17 2012 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I always assume people are spying on me.

Smiley: um

Smiley: tinfoilhat
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#6 Aug 17 2012 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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someRockwellguy wrote:
I always feel like somebody's watching me.

Smiley: um

Smiley: tinfoilhat



Edited, Aug 17th 2012 1:03pm by Shaowstrike
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#7 Aug 17 2012 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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#8 Aug 17 2012 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Guenny wrote:
You really think that in the "privacy agreements" that are pages long and get changed at regular intervals that the words you type are protected?


No, "I" don't, but you can say the same for the phone company, except they don't have ANY privacy agreements, we use their hardware/software to transmit our voice conversations, heck they go through the same wires as your internet traffic.


I think something that you should realize is that Facebook =/= the internet. Facebook is a company, a company that uses your identity to tailor advertising products to you. They let you put your name on page and fill in the blanks that they suggest. Where you get the idea that you can use their instant messaging system as a protected, private line of communication is beyond me. There is a serious disconnect here.
#9 Aug 17 2012 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Just to qualify, I know it doesn't work this way but I'm not the typical computer user.

BrownDuck wrote:
Sadly that group is likely the majority, based on my experience with people.


And why shouldn't the majority think that way? That's the way it should work. All other forms of communication are protected this way. If I have a conversation with someone I think that conversation should be between that person and myself unless one of us chooses to pass that information along in some way. As long as the expectation of privacy is maintained (I'm not yelling to my neighbor through the window with a bullhorn) my conversation should be kept private.
#10 Aug 17 2012 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Guenny wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
Guenny wrote:
You really think that in the "privacy agreements" that are pages long and get changed at regular intervals that the words you type are protected?


No, "I" don't, but you can say the same for the phone company, except they don't have ANY privacy agreements, we use their hardware/software to transmit our voice conversations, heck they go through the same wires as your internet traffic.


I think something that you should realize is that Facebook =/= the internet. Facebook is a company, a company that uses your identity to tailor advertising products to you. They let you put your name on page and fill in the blanks that they suggest. Where you get the idea that you can use their instant messaging system as a protected, private line of communication is beyond me. There is a serious disconnect here.

Yeah, but we also can't just access the internet without a service provider, and that provider is a company that can monitor our traffic in the same way that Facebook does.




Edited, Aug 17th 2012 12:16pm by trickybeck
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#11 Aug 17 2012 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Guenny wrote:
Facebook is a company


So is Rogers, my phone company.
#12 Aug 17 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Other information we receive about you
We also receive other types of information about you:

We receive data about you whenever you interact with Facebook, such as when you look at another person's timeline, send or receive a message, search for a friend or a Page, click on, view or otherwise interact with things, use a Facebook mobile app, or purchase Facebook Credits or make other purchases through Facebook.
When you post things like photos or videos on Facebook, we may receive additional related data (or metadata), such as the time, date, and place you took the photo or video.
We receive data from the computer, mobile phone or other device you use to access Facebook, including when multiple users log in from the same device. This may include your IP address and other information about things like your internet service, location, the type (including identifiers) of browser you use, or the pages you visit. For example, we may get your GPS or other location information so we can tell you if any of your friends are nearby.
We receive data whenever you visit a game, application, or website that uses Facebook Platform or visit a site with a Facebook feature (such as a social plugin), sometimes through cookies. This may include the date and time you visit the site; the web address, or URL, you're on; technical information about the IP address, browser and the operating system you use; and, if you are logged in to Facebook, your User ID.
Sometimes we get data from our advertising partners, customers and other third parties that helps us (or them) deliver ads, understand online activity, and generally make Facebook better. For example, an advertiser may tell us information about you (like how you responded to an ad on Facebook or on another site) in order to measure the effectiveness of - and improve the quality of - ads.

We also put together data from the information we already have about you and your friends. For example, we may put together data about you to determine which friends we should show you in your News Feed or suggest you tag in the photos you post. We may put together your current city with GPS and other location information we have about you to, for example, tell you and your friends about people or events nearby, or offer deals to you that you might be interested in. We may also put together data about you to serve you ads that might be more relevant to you.
When we get your GPS location, we put it together with other location information we have about you (like your current city). But we only keep it until it is no longer useful to provide you services, like keeping your last GPS coordinates to send you relevant notifications.
We only provide data to our advertising partners or customers after we have removed your name or any other personally identifying information from it, or have combined it with other people's data in a way that it is no longer associated with you


Really easy to find, two clicks off google. Anything you type into their page is information they use. Mostly as an amalgamate to all the other information you post, but they aren't hiding the fact that they're reading it.

Willful ignorance and "it should be because that's how everyone thinks it is!" is the laziest of the lazy American POVs.
#13 Aug 17 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
Guenny wrote:
Facebook is a company


So is Rogers, my phone company.


If this is going to become a breakdown of internet laws vs. telephone laws, I'm out. I just came by to let you know that bellyaching about Facebook not protecting your conversation was quite ridiculous.
#14 Aug 17 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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I agree that you shouldn't expect privacy on Facebook - they've made no intention to protect free speech in the way that some ISPs have in refusing to reveal user information.

As a thought exercise, if you wanted to communicate illegal information over the internet, how could you do it without using a 3rd party business that could potentially monitor and expose you? E-mail and IM wouldn't work. I guess a direct-ip connection of some sort would eliminate everyone but the ISP. Maybe use a dial-up modem and call someone's modem directly over the phone lines? You could still be monitored by the phone company, although I believe the laws regarding privacy over the phone are stricter, even with the Patriot Act changes.


Edited, Aug 17th 2012 12:19pm by trickybeck
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#15 Aug 17 2012 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Guenny wrote:
Quote:
Other information we receive about you
We also receive other types of information about you:

We receive data about you whenever you interact with Facebook, such as when you look at another person's timeline, send or receive a message, search for a friend or a Page, click on, view or otherwise interact with things, use a Facebook mobile app, or purchase Facebook Credits or make other purchases through Facebook.
When you post things like photos or videos on Facebook, we may receive additional related data (or metadata), such as the time, date, and place you took the photo or video.
We receive data from the computer, mobile phone or other device you use to access Facebook, including when multiple users log in from the same device. This may include your IP address and other information about things like your internet service, location, the type (including identifiers) of browser you use, or the pages you visit. For example, we may get your GPS or other location information so we can tell you if any of your friends are nearby.
We receive data whenever you visit a game, application, or website that uses Facebook Platform or visit a site with a Facebook feature (such as a social plugin), sometimes through cookies. This may include the date and time you visit the site; the web address, or URL, you're on; technical information about the IP address, browser and the operating system you use; and, if you are logged in to Facebook, your User ID.
Sometimes we get data from our advertising partners, customers and other third parties that helps us (or them) deliver ads, understand online activity, and generally make Facebook better. For example, an advertiser may tell us information about you (like how you responded to an ad on Facebook or on another site) in order to measure the effectiveness of - and improve the quality of - ads.

We also put together data from the information we already have about you and your friends. For example, we may put together data about you to determine which friends we should show you in your News Feed or suggest you tag in the photos you post. We may put together your current city with GPS and other location information we have about you to, for example, tell you and your friends about people or events nearby, or offer deals to you that you might be interested in. We may also put together data about you to serve you ads that might be more relevant to you.
When we get your GPS location, we put it together with other location information we have about you (like your current city). But we only keep it until it is no longer useful to provide you services, like keeping your last GPS coordinates to send you relevant notifications.
We only provide data to our advertising partners or customers after we have removed your name or any other personally identifying information from it, or have combined it with other people's data in a way that it is no longer associated with you


Really easy to find, two clicks off google. Anything you type into their page is information they use. Mostly as an amalgamate to all the other information you post, but they aren't hiding the fact that they're reading it.

Willful ignorance and "it should be because that's how everyone thinks it is!" is the laziest of the lazy American POVs.


I'm Canadian :).

Everyone thinks it is because that's the standard that has been set for other forms of communication by our governments. The same way EULAs aren't enforceable in court Facebooks privacy policy has no real bearing on what's considered protected communications (And yes, I know this is not currently considered protected communications, that's kind of the point).

I'm not arguing that this isn't the way it is or that it's somehow magically illegal because I don't like it. I'm arguing that these forms of communication are no different than a phone call and should therefore fall under the same regulations phone companies fall under. You seem to be trying to prove to me that they're allowed to do this and I shouldn't be surprised. I assure you, I'm not surprised and I'm well aware of what they are allowed to do with my information.
#16 Aug 17 2012 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Guenny wrote:
If this is going to become a breakdown of internet laws vs. telephone laws, I'm out. I just came by to let you know that bellyaching about Facebook not protecting your conversation was quite ridiculous.


That's EXACTLY what my first post is about...
#17 Aug 17 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Guenny wrote:
Facebook is a company


So is Rogers, my phone company.


Telus or GTFO. Smiley: mad
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#18 Aug 17 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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trickybeck wrote:
As a thought exercise, if you wanted to communicate illegal information over the internet, how could you do it without using a 3rd party business that could potentially monitor and expose you?
I don't care if you edited it out, I want to answer anyway. I'd use a combination of things. First, probably a regular randomly generated free email account created and used from some wifi hotspot like McDonalds or Starbucks or something to send an unencryption key of some sort, then I'd use a SIPRNet account to send an encrypted message. Not fool proof, and pretty limited in both scope and possible persons it would potentially work with, but there you have it.
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#19 Aug 17 2012 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Guenny wrote:
If this is going to become a breakdown of internet laws vs. telephone laws, I'm out. I just came by to let you know that bellyaching about Facebook not protecting your conversation was quite ridiculous.


That's EXACTLY what my first post is about...


OP wrote:
How many conversations did the techs at Facebook read before they came across this one? What if you have an indirect relationship of some sort with one of these techs? Say you're their girlfriend's boss..


I'm sorry, but the scope and gravity of your concerns were obscured by your trite and irrational worries.
#20 Aug 17 2012 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Protecting communications over the wire is dead simple, even for the general public. You're doing just that every time you access an https:// site or use a VPN connection. The issue in the OP isn't over the wire privacy, it's the expectation of privacy once the data reaches (and is stored at) its destination. The only reasonable expectation there is whatever is agreed upon between the two endpoints. In Facebook's case, there is no such expectation.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#21 Aug 17 2012 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
trickybeck wrote:
As a thought exercise, if you wanted to communicate illegal information over the internet, how could you do it without using a 3rd party business that could potentially monitor and expose you?
I don't care if you edited it out, I want to answer anyway. I'd use a combination of things. First, probably a regular randomly generated free email account created and used from some wifi hotspot like McDonalds or Starbucks or something to send an unencryption key of some sort, then I'd use a SIPRNet account to send an encrypted message. Not fool proof, and pretty limited in both scope and possible persons it would potentially work with, but there you have it.

I kept it but put it in another post. I'm not afraid of thought exercise thought police!

Yeah, using a new random email account in a public place would be a good way. I guess I meant, how could you protect the data itself from being monitored, not just the identity of the sender? And SIPRNet isn't available to the public at large.


Edited, Aug 17th 2012 12:50pm by trickybeck
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#22 Aug 17 2012 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I bet a @#%^phile hitting on a 13 year old who speaks Klingon would have their conversation kept fairly encrypted.
#23 Aug 17 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Guenny wrote:
Facebook is a company
So is Rogers, my phone company.

I think the point is that Facebook isn't really the medium of transmission, it's the end destination. A physical analogy may be working in an office and getting your letters from the mail room delivered pre-opened. The mail is protected by law en route to the building but you'd have a devil of a time trying to get the guys in the mail room arrested for tampering because your expectation of that protection is lost once the letters are delivered to the building as a condition of working at that office. You can ask the boss to change the policy (which may or may not happen) or stop working in that building but you don't really have legal protection.

Likewise, your electronic love letters may be protected as Rogers sends them from Point A to Point B but once they hit the Facebook "building", you lose a lot of protection which you agreed to lose via the EULA as a condition of being in the Facebook "building".
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#24 Aug 17 2012 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Privacy is a myth created by children that adults have fallen for.


If I hide my eyes YOU CAN'T SEE ME. Smiley: mad


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#25 Aug 17 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
Guenny wrote:
Facebook is a company
So is Rogers, my phone company.

I think the point is that Facebook isn't really the medium of transmission, it's the end destination. A physical analogy may be working in an office and getting your letters from the mail room delivered pre-opened. The mail is protected by law en route to the building but you'd have a devil of a time trying to get the guys in the mail room arrested for tampering because your expectation of that protection is lost once the letters are delivered to the building as a condition of working at that office. You can ask the boss to change the policy (which may or may not happen) or stop working in that building but you don't really have legal protection.

Likewise, your electronic love letters may be protected as Rogers sends them from Point A to Point B but once they hit the Facebook "building", you lose a lot of protection which you agreed to lose via the EULA as a condition of being in the Facebook "building".



That's a very good point. So transmission mediums are protected but endpoints aren't. So that would clear Facebook and anything other than a strictly P2P solution.
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