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#52 Jul 27 2012 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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My mom's bare-bones, manual tranny 2002 Saturn still gets 40+MPG, when I'm driving on the highways at least. She never goes more than ten miles at a time in it.
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#53 Jul 27 2012 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I suspect you don't actually know what the word "quantifiably" means.

Literally.


So he intentionally used an ironic meaning of the word which denotes the exact opposite of its real meaning in order to engage in hyperbole? I'll buy that.

Are you on crack? Seriously. Get your fucking head scanned.

Actually, I take that back. This is how you've always been, so you're probably fine. If you did suddenly develop any sense, it'd probably indicate a brain tumor.


You apparently doubt that your wrongness can be quantifiable...in a thread in which YOU POSTED A POLL WHICH ITSELF QUANTIFIES YOUR WRONGNESS.



Edited, Jul 28th 2012 12:18am by trickybeck
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#54 Jul 28 2012 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Living in an area that is both flat and urban, there's zero reason around here to buy a manual except to save a few bucks.

Quote:
You haven't experienced the pain of sitting in stop-and-go traffic for 3 hours until you've tried it with a manual transmission.


Heh, if it wasn't for my infatuation with manual due to Initial D then I wouldn't even be considering it. I'll be losing cruise control, stop-and-go traffic will become infuriating instead of boring, and overall gas milage will probably decrease.

Knowing manual like the back of my hand, or rather being able to control the car like it were my own feet, is one of those things I want to do sometime in my lifetime. One of the more realistic ones too, unlike learning ninjutsu.
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#55 Jul 28 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, driving a manual really all depends on what type of vehicle you're driving. My '94 Nissan Skyline GTS-t pushing 500hp or my new project car (CPV35 with vortech supercharger kit for 400hp) is a blast to drive in traffic or not.

The 4-ton work truck...not so much.

Anyone driving an A/T with 2 feet should be shot*. (Random forum percentage number) of people that do that crap are riding their brakes, and us poor slobs behind them have no friggin' clue why the **** they're braking or when they're actually going to brake harder. Said group also tends to forget about using their turn indicators too.

*Unless your drifting, but then we wouldn't be having this discussion other than "E-braking is not drifting"
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#56 Jul 29 2012 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Deadgye wrote:
Heh, if it wasn't for my infatuation with manual due to Initial D then I wouldn't even be considering it. I'll be losing cruise control, stop-and-go traffic will become infuriating instead of boring, and overall gas milage will probably decrease.

You can have cruise control with a manual trans.


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#57 Jul 29 2012 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
trickybeck wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Heh, if it wasn't for my infatuation with manual due to Initial D then I wouldn't even be considering it. I'll be losing cruise control, stop-and-go traffic will become infuriating instead of boring, and overall gas milage will probably decrease.

You can have cruise control with a manual trans.
False. Had it on my 5 speed 1991 Totota wagon. I might have had it on my 1979 Datsun B210FU wagon, but that was long ago and I can't be 100% sure on that.
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#58 Jul 29 2012 at 11:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
trickybeck wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Heh, if it wasn't for my infatuation with manual due to Initial D then I wouldn't even be considering it. I'll be losing cruise control, stop-and-go traffic will become infuriating instead of boring, and overall gas milage will probably decrease.

You can have cruise control with a manual trans.
False. Had it on my 5 speed 1991 Totota wagon. I might have had it on my 1979 Datsun B210FU wagon, but that was long ago and I can't be 100% sure on that.

I said you can have it.
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#59 Jul 30 2012 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
Oops. There must be some explanation as to why I missed that.
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Bijou your art is exceptionally creepy. It seems like their should be something menacing about it, yet no such tone is present.
#60 Jul 30 2012 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Oops. There must be some explanation as to why I missed that.
The obvious "I'm blind" would work. Smiley: tongue
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#61 Jul 30 2012 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
Oops. There must be some explanation as to why I missed that.
The obvious "I'm blind" would work. Smiley: tongue
I have no idea what you are talking about. In the future, I'd appreciate you not jumping to any crazy conclusions.Smiley: motz
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Allegory wrote:
Bijou your art is exceptionally creepy. It seems like their should be something menacing about it, yet no such tone is present.
#62 Jul 30 2012 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Heh, if it wasn't for my infatuation with manual due to Initial D then I wouldn't even be considering it. I'll be losing cruise control, stop-and-go traffic will become infuriating instead of boring, and overall gas milage will probably decrease.

You can have cruise control with a manual trans.

Oh, so you can. Wonder how I missed that.
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#63 Jul 30 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
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trickybeck wrote:
You apparently doubt that your wrongness can be quantifiable...in a thread in which YOU POSTED A POLL WHICH ITSELF QUANTIFIES YOUR WRONGNESS.


Let me introduce you to someone you should meet


Quantifiable evidence would be statistics showing that people who drive automatics with two feet have a higher accident rate than those who don't. Or that their average brake life is shorter. ****. It would be nearly anything other than just pointing to the number of people who think it's more dangerous or inefficient or wrong. What I find fascinating about this subject is that most people feel very very strongly that driving an automatic with two feet is wrong, dangerous, etc, yet other than pointing at all the other people who believe the same as they do, they can't produce any real evidence to support this. It's not a subject I would expect people to be so emotional about, yet comments like "people who do that should be shot" are pretty common whenever the subject is brought up.


There are dozens of studies about the number of accidents caused by pressing the wrong pedal or having a foot slip onto the wrong pedal. All problems directly applicable to using the same foot to operate both pedals. Yet, despite the nearly universal assumption that using two feet is wrong, I'm not aware of a single study actually examining that question. So why the automatic assumption that it's wrong? Seems kinda circular to me.


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#64 Jul 30 2012 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
/shrug. Most people I've heard from on the issue who drive with two feet started driving on a manual transmission (yes. Like me!) and naturally carried over the use of two feet to driving an automatic. For me, it just made a lot more sense to use that foot that was already used to pushing down on something when stopping to pushing on the brake, thus freeing up my right foot for accelerator-only duty. Far far less complicated IMO.


I disagree. When you drive a manual transmission, your left foot is for the clutch and your right foot is for brake/accelerator. In this setup, you already have the learned mechanics for manipulating the brake and accelerator with the right foot. If you take the clutch out of the equation it is far less complicated to just leave the left foot idle and continue using the right foot for brake and accelerator. It would seem to me that retraining your left foot to use the brake is the very definition of complicating things. I've been driving manual transmissions for most of the 20 years I've been driving and I've never had the urge to use my left foot when driving an automatic.

That being said, and as other posters have mentioned, driving with both feet on the pedals is a waste of fuel, puts excess wear on the brakes, and is annoying as **** to the people behind you because the brake lights are constantly on.
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#65 Jul 31 2012 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Wait, people actually do that? Drive an auto with two feet? I learned on a manual, still drive them on occasion and I've never used my left foot in an auto, unless I'm doing something weird (like moving my right foot for some reason).

gbaji, your reasoning is idiotic. Even in a manual your right foot still handles both the gas and brake. The left foot can and should be left idle. It would be totally bizarre to use your left for the brake.

Or, what PF just said.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#66 Jul 31 2012 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:


There are dozens of studies about the number of accidents caused by pressing the wrong pedal or having a foot slip onto the wrong pedal. All problems directly applicable to using the same foot to operate both pedals. Yet, despite the nearly universal assumption that using two feet is wrong, I'm not aware of a single study actually examining that question. So why the automatic assumption that it's wrong? Seems kinda circular to me.




Every car and driving expert will tell you that today's cars are designed to be driven with one foot. Why would you assume that driving it with two feet is 'right'?




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#67 Jul 31 2012 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I learned to drive on a 5 speed Z24. The difference in how you maneuver your feet between manual and automatic is clutch operation and nothing but. The idea that there is some kind of link between driving manual and using your left foot for the brake is ludicrous. It would take some serious muscle memory retraining to even make that work fluidly, you'd be moving your foot to the right which uses a different muscle group. For christ sakes, there's a **** platform designed to rest your left foot on in nearly every automatic vehicle built in the last 40 years specifically because you're not supposed to be using that foot during normal operation.
#68 Jul 31 2012 at 7:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are dozens of studies about the number of accidents caused by pressing the wrong pedal or having a foot slip onto the wrong pedal. All problems directly applicable to using the same foot to operate both pedals. Yet, despite the nearly universal assumption that using two feet is wrong, I'm not aware of a single study actually examining that question. So why the automatic assumption that it's wrong? Seems kinda circular to me.


If you can't remember which pedal to hit with your right foot, you're not going to remember which leg to slam down to hit the break. It's commonly an old people thing.
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#69 Jul 31 2012 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
I learned to drive on a 5 speed Z24. The difference in how you maneuver your feet between manual and automatic is clutch operation and nothing but. The idea that there is some kind of link between driving manual and using your left foot for the brake is ludicrous. It would take some serious muscle memory retraining to even make that work fluidly, you'd be moving your foot to the right which uses a different muscle group. For christ sakes, there's a **** platform designed to rest your left foot on in nearly every automatic vehicle built in the last 40 years specifically because you're not supposed to be using that foot during normal operation.

I learned to drive a manual tranny on a boyfriends 1966 Ford Econoline Van. It had the big-stick shifter that came up from the floor and was bitch to get into low gears.
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#70 Jul 31 2012 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Why would you assume that driving it with two feet is 'right'?

Because he does it.

Did you really need to ask that question?
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#71 Jul 31 2012 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, the best part of this thread is discussing handling a manual tranny's stick. *snicker*
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#72 Jul 31 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Only a tool like gbaji would find a way to prove he's wrong, then disagree with anyone who points it out. He probably uses two hands to jack off, as well.
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#73 Jul 31 2012 at 8:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
I've only driven automatic and that makes me sad. I understand how a manual works but I don't have any experience driving one.

Living in an area that is both flat and urban, there's zero reason around here to buy a manual except to save a few bucks.


You haven't experienced the pain of sitting in stop-and-go traffic for 3 hours until you've tried it with a manual transmission.
I miss the **** out of my manual transmission car, but not during rush hour. The first week or so I drove it to and from the city I didn't know what to do with all that free time.
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#74 Jul 31 2012 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Facebook, of f course. Or was this before iPhones?
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#75 Jul 31 2012 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Facebook, of f course. Or was this before iPhones?
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#76 Jul 31 2012 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
I've only driven automatic and that makes me sad. I understand how a manual works but I don't have any experience driving one.

Living in an area that is both flat and urban, there's zero reason around here to buy a manual except to save a few bucks.


You haven't experienced the pain of sitting in stop-and-go traffic for 3 hours until you've tried it with a manual transmission.
I miss the @#%^ out of my manual transmission car, but not during rush hour. The first week or so I drove it to and from the city I didn't know what to do with all that free time.

Same. I loved driving a manual (had a Z28 and an old RX7) and LOVED driving them as manuals. Unless it was in traffic. Or when we used to cruise the mall. That sucked. I always felt like my left leg was getting a good workout.
#77 Jul 31 2012 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
There are dozens of studies about the number of accidents caused by pressing the wrong pedal or having a foot slip onto the wrong pedal. All problems directly applicable to using the same foot to operate both pedals. Yet, despite the nearly universal assumption that using two feet is wrong, I'm not aware of a single study actually examining that question. So why the automatic assumption that it's wrong? Seems kinda circular to me.


If you can't remember which pedal to hit with your right foot, you're not going to remember which leg to slam down to hit the break. It's commonly an old people thing.


It's not about not remembering which pedal to hit, but thinking you're hitting one pedal when actually hitting the other either because you've misplaced your foot, or your foot slipped off the brake and onto the accelerator. And it's not just an old thing. It's a young thing too (new drivers). Most of the time, you realize this quickly and move your foot. But in a panic situation, the brain substitutes what it thinks you've done for what you're actually doing. It'll even substitute the sensation of hitting the brake (cause that's what you intended to do). This is how we get people who are absolutely positive that they were hitting the brake as hard as they could even whilst their car accelerated through a crowd of people.

The point is that you *can't* accidentally hit the wrong pedal if you use different feet for each on (well, I suppose it's possible, but it would be really really hard to do). Driving with two feet also provides some safety advantages when passing at speed and when maneuvering in a parking lot. You just have more control of the car using two feet than just one. You can't control your speed *and* cover the brake in case someone jumps out in front of you if you're using just one foot. You can do this easily with two feet, significantly decreasing your reaction time to events around you.

If more people learned to drive automatics with both feet, there would be fewer accidents IMO. Most of the reasons given against it is because people aren't used to doing so. Get used to it and you'll never go back to the old way.
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#78 Jul 31 2012 at 2:48 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:


There are dozens of studies about the number of accidents caused by pressing the wrong pedal or having a foot slip onto the wrong pedal. All problems directly applicable to using the same foot to operate both pedals. Yet, despite the nearly universal assumption that using two feet is wrong, I'm not aware of a single study actually examining that question. So why the automatic assumption that it's wrong? Seems kinda circular to me.




Every car and driving expert will tell you that today's cars are designed to be driven with one foot. Why would you assume that driving it with two feet is 'right'


Those don't really relate to each other. I agree that automatics have over time had their pedal placements moved closer together in order to facilitate one foot driving. But it does not follow that this is "better", much less safer. The manufacturers are catering to the desires of the market, not necessarily which is a better way to drive. The problems with the Audi 5000 can be directly traced to pedals placed too close together and at a similar enough height that it was harder for drivers to tell that they were pushing the wrong pedal by feel.

I'm well aware that I'm in the minority here, but I think that car designers ought to be putting pedals on automatics farther apart, not closer. ****. They ought to evenly space them from the right and left sides of the footwell and place false pedals (footrests) to each side of each pedal. That way you can use one foot if you want, but can easily use two as well (with no foot arbitrarily placed father away from a pedal). Additionally, it would give you a resting place for your right foot when using cruise control other than on/over the brake (which btw, is far more likely to be the reason you see people driving down the freeway for miles with their brake lights lit up). Also, it would ensure even posture when driving rather than constantly lined up to the right. Much more comfortable for long drives.
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#79 Jul 31 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The manufacturers are catering to the desires of the market, not necessarily which is a better way to drive.
Free market working as intended.
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#80 Jul 31 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait a minute. Do you seriously sit with your foot over the brake pedal with the cruise on? If your brake lights are on your cruise turns off...

Near impossible to accidentally slip off the brake to the gas, auto makers put the gas pedal to the right of the driver AND make it thinner to avoid this exact issue (you slip down and in, not up and out). You can slip from gas to brake, but not the reverse. Not easily anyhow (It IS possible, just not likely). This also helps prevent hitting both at once with the same foot, if you catch the gas off centre your foot will slip off of the gas and onto the brake bringing you to a slowed, safer speed while you recover from your mistake. WHICH incidentally is half of the reason that the brake pedal is directly beside the gas pedal, the other half is so that you can flip from gas to brake quickly in an emergency without the risk of hitting both at the same time (which would throw you into a skid and is one of the most important reasons for one foot operation).

EDIT: I had to correct some of this, wrote it quite hastily and made some inaccurate statements.

Edited, Jul 31st 2012 5:51pm by Yodabunny
#81 Jul 31 2012 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Quote:
The manufacturers are catering to the desires of the market, not necessarily which is a better way to drive.
Free market working as intended.


I agree. A lot of radical social engineering being proposed here.

Smiley: disappointed
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#82 Jul 31 2012 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Additionally, it would give you a resting place for your right foot when using cruise control other than on/over the brake (which btw, is far more likely to be the reason you see people driving down the freeway for miles with their brake lights lit up).


Except touching the brakes while cruise is enabled turns off cruise control.

When using cruise control, I just tilt my foot over to the right side and rest it against the center of the well. Usually enough friction to keep my foot rested comfortably. If not I just bend my knee up as if I were sitting in a chair. My driver's ed instructor insisted that I keep my foot over the pedals though, ready to brake if needed.
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#83 Jul 31 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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So this morning, I put my left foot over my brake pedal, just to see how it felt, and it was just not comfortable at all. So, to drive with both feet, I would have to be lifting my foot up from the floor or rest and moving it to the pedal every time I have to brake? Doesn't this increase the amount of time before you actually start braking?

I just don't even see how using two feet on an automatic because you're used to using two feet on a manual even makes any sense. When you drive a manual, your right foot is controlling the brake and the gas, and your left controls the clutch. You're saying it makes sense to transfer braking responsibilities to your left foot when you drive an automatic because you're used to using both feet? I can't see how that makes more sense than continuing to use your right foot for both brake and gas. You're altering your controls by less than if you swap to using two feet.
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#84 Jul 31 2012 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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I've only met one person ever who used both feet when driving an automatic. My grandfather. And he was (still is) a bit senile.

I have a hard time believing gbaji actually uses both feet. Though if he did, these grasps for the tiny straws that he thinks are there would be how he would justify his strange actions...
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#85 Jul 31 2012 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji just insists on making contrarian arguments, no matter how ridiculous. Apparently it's an intellectual exercise or something.
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#86 Jul 31 2012 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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If this was the "Two Foot Driving" forum, he'd be arguing for using one foot just to expose the flaws in our arguments!
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#87 Jul 31 2012 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe he's secretly mining for responses to the two-footer's dastardly propaganda.
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#88 Aug 01 2012 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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So the evil plan all along has been to rid the world of life-saving one-foot driving and force us all into two-footed Bondage?

He must be stopped.

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#89 Aug 01 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Default
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Yodabunny wrote:
Wait a minute. Do you seriously sit with your foot over the brake pedal with the cruise on? If your brake lights are on your cruise turns off...


I don't. Read what I said. And the issue with people's brake lights being on is because the lights tend to be more sensitive than the brakes themselves. It's quite possible to trigger the brake lights on many (most? maybe even all?) cars without pushing the brake pedal hard enough to deactivate the cruise control. Um... I'll also point out that that's something that manufacturers also do deliberately, in order to facilitate what are in essence bad driving practices. They know that during normal operation people will periodically accidentally bump the brake pedal. If the slightest touch would turn off the cruise control, they'd have constant complaints from people saying the cruise doesn't work properly. They allow for the fact that some people will ride their brakes while driving.

By all means, test this if you don't believe me. You have to step on the brake pretty well before the cruise will deactivate. Resting your foot on it wont do so (but will activate the brake lights).

Quote:
Near impossible to accidentally slip off the brake to the gas, auto makers put the gas pedal to the right of the driver AND make it thinner to avoid this exact issue (you slip down and in, not up and out). You can slip from gas to brake, but not the reverse.


You're kidding, right? The brake pedal is located above and to the left of the gas pedal. A right footed driver will shift his foot from the "normal" position towards the left and up to hit the brake. It's very very very very very common for people to hit just the side of the brake and end out with their foot pressing on the gas. ****. Go test this. Sit in your car. Place your foot so only the left half of it's over the right side of the brake (ie: on the side of the pedal nearest the gas, which is where a right footer will hit the pedal in a panic). Hold your foot over the brake and then, without looking, press it down as hard as you can. It's actually hard to do this without your foot slipping off the gas (um... Don't do this with the car on btw).

If you don't believe me, here's an nhtsa study on the issue. Pedal misapplication is incredibly common. It's trivially easy to conduct a test and produce repeatable numbers of errors. While a foot slipping from the brake to the gas isn't nearly as common as pressing the wrong pedal entirely, it does happen.


The point is that neither is as likely to happen if you use a different foot for each pedal.

Quote:
Not easily anyhow (It IS possible, just not likely). This also helps prevent hitting both at once with the same foot, if you catch the gas off centre your foot will slip off of the gas and onto the brake bringing you to a slowed, safer speed while you recover from your mistake.


Again, you've got it backwards. The brake is higher (closer to you) than the gas. Your foot can't slip off the gas and onto the brake. Not while pushing down anyway. Seriously. Try this. Put your foot on the gas pedal in any manner you can think of and then try to have it slip to the brake while pushing down. It's impossible. Unless you're already hitting both pedals before you start, the brake is going to be above your foot. In fact, a common problem (which again happens to people who use just their right foot) is accidentally getting their foot stuck behind the brake pedal when attempting to move their foot off the gas. Even when just resting on the gas pedal, the side of the brake pedal is even with about the middle of the side of your foot. Rotate it directly left and you'll hit the side of the pedal. You *can't* get your foot from the gas to the brake without lifting your foot first. It's easy to just slide your foot to the right while pushing down on the brake and end out on the gas though. Doubly so since brakes are horizontally placed and "float" (meaning that the brake pedal at rest isn't touching the floorboards where you could hit it. The gas pedal is vertically oriented, with the bottom flush with the floorboards. Part of the gas pedal is *always* down and to the right of the brake pedal.


If, however, you are braking with your left foot. Your foot will tend to be hitting the left side of the brake pedal. If your foot slips (or you misjudge the pedal placement in a panic) you will tend to fall short and to the left. Meaning your foot will either slip off the left side of the brake and hit nothing, or it'll miss the brake pedal to the left (and again, hit nothing). It really is darn near impossible to accidentally hit the gas with your left foot. Even beyond the placement and the physics of how your body parts move, you'd have to step on top of your right foot do do it. Possible, I suppose, but everything else being equal, you're many times more likely to accidentally hit the gas when meaning to hit the brake if you use your right foot for both.

Quote:
WHICH incidentally is half of the reason that the brake pedal is directly beside the gas pedal, the other half is so that you can flip from gas to brake quickly in an emergency without the risk of hitting both at the same time (which would throw you into a skid and is one of the most important reasons for one foot operation).


Perception and reality aren't in agreement there.

Quote:
EDIT: I had to correct some of this, wrote it quite hastily and made some inaccurate statements.


I think you left a few in. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 12:51pm by gbaji
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#90 Aug 01 2012 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why do you keep bringing up missing the break, or pressing the wrong pedal in a panic situation while ignoring slamming down with both feet in a panic situation? If you can get it in your muscle memory to only slam down the correct foot in a panic situation, what makes you think it's any different for slamming down in the correct position with your only foot.
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#91 Aug 01 2012 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you don't believe me, here's an nhtsa study on the issue. Pedal misapplication is incredibly common.

For certain very liberal definitions of "incredibly common", perhaps.
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#92 Aug 01 2012 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
If you don't believe me, here's an nhtsa study on the issue. Pedal misapplication is incredibly common. It's trivially easy to conduct a test and produce repeatable numbers of errors. While a foot slipping from the brake to the gas isn't nearly as common as pressing the wrong pedal entirely, it does happen.


Your linked study does not state or imply that both-footed driving can mitigate pedal misapplication. It does have this to say though:

gbaji's linky wrote:

Drivers Who Use Both Feet

DRSs commented that clients who began driving with both feet late in their driving careers have been more likely to make pedal application errors; both-footed driving does not seem to be a problem for those who have driven with both feet all their lives. The DRSs said that clients who start this practice late in life end up pressing both pedals at the same time. Their feet get tired because keeping the foot from pressing the gas pedal requires dorsiflexion. Their feet end up putting more pressure on the gas pedal than they realize, and if their hearing is impaired, they may not hear the engine revving. If they wait at a traffic light with one foot on the brake and the other on the gas (heavy, because their foot is tired), when the light turns green, they take their foot off the brake and they unintentionally accelerate and hit the car in front of them.


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#93gbaji, Posted: Aug 01 2012 at 3:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Because missing is more likely than forgetting which foot to use. I just don't know how much more clearly I can state this. The right foot only driver is also using muscle memory. He uses his right foot to brake. You aren't arguing that he's one day going to try to slam his left foot into the floor instead of braking with the right. Both have to remember which foot to use and to use it. The difference is that the right foot user can mix up which pedal to push, or miss the pedal he intends to hit, or any of a whole set of mistakes which might result in the gas being pressed instead of the brake.
#94 Aug 01 2012 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Because missing is more likely than forgetting which foot to use. I just don't know how much more clearly I can state this.

Just because you state something clearly does not make it correct.

Quote:
The left foot guy, at worst will miss the brake (but not hit the gas), or press both pedals. Both of which have far less dangerous results than what can (and does every year) happen to the right foot only driver.

I love how you imagine all these wonderful unlikely ways that a normal driver could mess up and accelerate when they mean to break, and then you blatantly disregard the unlikely situations that could occur for left foot brakers. Why can't the left foot braker miss the brake and also hit the accelerator? If slipping off the brake with the right foot, which it's designed to be used by, is so common as you claim what in the world makes you believe that the left foot cannot possible miss or slip off? Furthermore, simply missing the break and not hitting the gas is dangerous as well; it's also more likely to happen since the brake is designed to be used by the right foot.
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#95 Aug 01 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I find it hilarious that this safe driving argument is with someone whose entire driving experience is based around an area of the country that panics at the mention of snowflakes.
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#96 Aug 01 2012 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I find it hilarious that this safe driving argument is with someone whose entire driving experience is based around an area of the country that panics at the mention of snowflakes.

Oh God, now Gbaji is going to tell us about those are super unique snowflakes because they make the road "slippery".
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#97 Aug 01 2012 at 4:16 PM Rating: Default
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If you don't believe me, here's an nhtsa study on the issue. Pedal misapplication is incredibly common. It's trivially easy to conduct a test and produce repeatable numbers of errors. While a foot slipping from the brake to the gas isn't nearly as common as pressing the wrong pedal entirely, it does happen.


Your linked study does not state or imply that both-footed driving can mitigate pedal misapplication. It does have this to say though:

gbaji's linky wrote:

Drivers Who Use Both Feet

DRSs commented that clients who began driving with both feet late in their driving careers have been more likely to make pedal application errors; both-footed driving does not seem to be a problem for those who have driven with both feet all their lives. The DRSs said that clients who start this practice late in life end up pressing both pedals at the same time. Their feet get tired because keeping the foot from pressing the gas pedal requires dorsiflexion. Their feet end up putting more pressure on the gas pedal than they realize, and if their hearing is impaired, they may not hear the engine revving. If they wait at a traffic light with one foot on the brake and the other on the gas (heavy, because their foot is tired), when the light turns green, they take their foot off the brake and they unintentionally accelerate and hit the car in front of them.




Interesting how simply changing which words are bolded suddenly makes this a complete endorsement of my position that we should teach drivers to drive this way from the start and save lives. Hmmmm...
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#98 Aug 01 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I don't. Read what I said. And the issue with people's brake lights being on is because the lights tend to be more sensitive than the brakes themselves. It's quite possible to trigger the brake lights on many (most? maybe even all?) cars without pushing the brake pedal hard enough to deactivate the cruise control.

False.

The cruise control deactivation is tied into the brake switch. If you push the pedal hard enough for the brake lights to come on, then the cruise is deactivated as well.
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#99 Aug 01 2012 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Interesting how simply changing which words are bolded suddenly makes this a complete endorsement of my position that we should teach drivers to drive this way from the start and save lives. Hmmmm...

My reading of it is that drivers taught that way from the start aren't statistically different from single foot drivers in their pedal misapplication accident rate, not that they're immune to it.

"Hmmmm...."

Smiley: rolleyes
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#100 Aug 01 2012 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Interesting how simply changing which words are bolded suddenly makes this a complete endorsement of my position that we should teach drivers to drive this way from the start and save lives.
Yes, changing emphasis and ignoring entire passages that disagree with one's stance can make anything say whatever you want. Congratulations on figuring that out.
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#101 Aug 01 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Default
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Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
Because missing is more likely than forgetting which foot to use. I just don't know how much more clearly I can state this.

Just because you state something clearly does not make it correct.


That's a pretty useless point to make though since it applies to any position. A better approach might be to engage the ol noggin and think about the issue for a moment. Does anyone seriously doubt that if we were to conduct a reflex test in which people were required to push one of two buttons in front of them based on some external stimulus (a light color for example), and we divided our test into two groups, one of which was allowed to use both hands and one which was required to use only one, that the first group would perform better? And after some practice that same group would perform even more better?

Go find a console game that uses two buttons on the controller. Practice using one thumb to control both buttons. Then practice using a different thumb for each. Which one will give you better results? I could probably sit here and give you a dozen different examples in which we all know that we will react faster and more accurately if we use two different hands, feet, thumbs, etc to control two different objects than if we use just one for both. Why assume this is different when it comes to the pedals in a car?

Quote:
Quote:
The left foot guy, at worst will miss the brake (but not hit the gas), or press both pedals. Both of which have far less dangerous results than what can (and does every year) happen to the right foot only driver.

I love how you imagine all these wonderful unlikely ways that a normal driver could mess up and accelerate when they mean to break, and then you blatantly disregard the unlikely situations that could occur for left foot brakers.


I don't disregard either of them. I'm stating as plainly and clearly as possible that one of those things happens far more often than the other. There are hundreds of documented cases of right foot only drivers accidentally hitting the gas instead of the brake and causing an accident. How many documented cases of accidents can you find that are directly attributed to someone driving with two feet instead of one? Not someone speculating about what might happen, but accidents that actually did happen. Can you find any?

Quote:
Why can't the left foot braker miss the brake and also hit the accelerator?


Sigh? Sit in your car. Plant your right heel in front of the gas pedal (like you'd normally place it). Now, lift your toes up so you are not pressing on the pedal. Now. Take your left foot and try to press the gas pedal. You can't do it. Your right foot is in the way. You'd have to literally put your left foot on top of your right foot and push it down in order to do what you're claiming could happen. It would take a **** of a miss to do that. Meanwhile, the guy operating with just his right foot just has to miss to the right a couple of inches and he can hit the gas instead of the brake (depending on how far to the left he normally positions his foot on the brake pedal of course). There's nothing in the way (other than the pedal) to tell him he's missed. He doesn't literally have to shove one leg into the other to do this. He just has to miss the pedal. Worse, since he's used to having his foot push on a pedal in that position, it's not as absolutely unfamiliar and wont have a blaring "WTF is going on" sensation associated with it. He's just pressing down on a pedal in a position his foot is used to being. The left foot driver *never* has his foot that far over. Even if he could do it, it would feel absolutely wrong.

Quote:
If slipping off the brake with the right foot, which it's designed to be used by, is so common as you claim what in the world makes you believe that the left foot cannot possible miss or slip off?


Nothing. But if the left foot slips off, it's going to slip off the left side of the pedal. If the right foot slips off, it's going to slip off to the right side of the pedal. What is to the right side of the brake pedal? The gas. What's to the left? Floorboard.

It's like I didn't just explain this two posts ago. Sheesh!

Quote:
Furthermore, simply missing the break and not hitting the gas is dangerous as well;


Not even close to as dangerous though. Assuming the odds of missing the brake are the same, one is much much worse than the other.

Quote:
it's also more likely to happen since the brake is designed to be used by the right foot.


Um... No. It's not. Why would you think that? It's not like the brake pedal itself is curved in a special way, or angled in a way that makes it easier to use with either foot. It's typically a wide flatish pedal. Either foot can hit it just fine. While I'll agree that some newer cars have shifted the position closer to the gas pedal, I absolutely don't agree that this is a better configuration much less safer. The brake pedal certainly isn't "designed" to be used by the right foot though. Where did you get that idea?


You're also missing a far more significant factor than your imagined "design" of the brake pedal. Preparation. I mentioned this earlier, but it bears repeating. A right foot only driver cannot "cover" the brake without taking his foot off the gas. This means that he must make a choice between one or the other, increasing the odds that his foot will be out of position to brake quickly if something unexpected happens. Meanwhile, the guy using his left foot can control the gas with his right, and when the situation calls for it, cover the brake with his left (move his foot over to the pedal, planting heel to floor in front of it, toe pointed upwards and ready to press it as needed). I do this when passing a group of slower moving cars on the freeway and when driving in parking lots. What this means is that the left foot guy can be "ready" in case something happens, without having to commit himself to a change in speed beforehand. It's much greater control of the car, and it's much safer. Depending on who you talk to, this can shave 2/10ths to 1/2 of a second off the total reaction time. Um... It also means that your foot is already in position to brake and thus there is absolutely zero chance of missing the pedal, foot slipping off, etc.


And this is all still ignoring the whole muscle memory/placement effect. When I move my left foot over to brake, I always position it in the exact same spot. Because I don't have to choose between having my foot on the gas and positioning my left foot, I have the luxury of making sure it's in the right spot before I have to start braking. My right foot is always in the same spot relative to the gas as well. Meaning that my odds of misplacing my feet are lower than someone who uses one foot for both.

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 4:20pm by gbaji
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